It's an attempt to improve Cyro's performance. It's also a test and will only last for a limited time.

No offense but if any attempt to improve Cyro performance is shut down before the tests are even run, they should just drop cyro updates in their entirety if this is how the playerbase responds to it going forward.

Meredy wrote: »

It's an attempt to improve Cyro's performance. It's also a test and will only last for a limited time. No offense but if any attempt to improve Cyro performance is shut down before the tests are even run, they should just drop cyro updates in their entirety if this is how the playerbase responds to it going forward.

No offense but still I'm not a paid game tester...

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Nothing from vengeance is going to make it to live. It's a test. We don't need to panic.

To some extent, it will test whether players are interested in template PvP or not. Yes I get that performance is the priority, but it's okay to give feedback that I'm not interested in template PvP as a concept. This is a feedback thread.

Jestir wrote: »

They are absolutely not interested in killing builds and going template only

That's good to hear and means our feedback was heard. Thank you.

n333rs wrote: »

like at the moment it isn't at its best but doing nothing at all is substantially more preferable to this vengeance nonsense like im concerned that this won't be totally scrapped despite the extreme amount of negative feedback. There is nothing good in vengeance you're literally a companion made playable. It is horrid.

Couldn't agree more.

I don't like anything about this new play mode for Cyrodiil.

Why isn't ZOS working on balancing the Cyrodiil we already have? They could remove a few of the most calculation intensive sets and limit cross healing and shield stacking for groups, which is something we've been asking for for years and they have yet to so much as even try it out and see if that would be enough to improve performance.

Implementing this special play mode will isolate PvP from PvE entirely so PvP players will have no reason to PvE at all, ever. Some of the PvE community thinks this is a good idea, but they have no idea how integral PvP is to ESO.

Jestir wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Nothing from vengeance is going to make it to live. It's a test. We don't need to panic.

To some extent, it will test whether players are interested in template PvP or not. Yes I get that performance is the priority, but it's okay to give feedback that I'm not interested in template PvP as a concept. This is a feedback thread.

Did you watch the live stream they did? They are absolutely not interested in killing builds and going template only

I learned a long time ago to watch what they do and essentially disregard what they say. Far too often they have turned out to not be the same thing.

I like vengeance mode. For it's purpose of rnd it's a good start, but it's concept of templates I hope persists. It's finally an answer to separation of pve and pvp. Further development of the format would make pve content isolated from pvp builds and skills within cyrodiil (at least). It would be a cleaner and easier transition both directions for entering pve or pvp. For a bigger purpose though, and depending on how zos redesigns cyrodiil, with templates the mass damage reduction, stacking heals, set meta, and ball groups could be tossed out the window. Thus, making cyrodiil a proper competitive pvp environment focused on skill, experience, and strategy rather than statistical calculated advantage from abusing sets, skills and mechanics. Certainly there will be some over tuned skills, sets, etc. discovered over time, but with standardized skill templates (and maybe pvp sets) it's far easier to make builds ~1:1 in performance than how it currently is obviously.

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

n333rs wrote: »

like at the moment it isn't at its best but doing nothing at all is substantially more preferable to this vengeance nonsense like im concerned that this won't be totally scrapped despite the extreme amount of negative feedback. There is nothing good in vengeance you're literally a companion made playable. It is horrid.

Funny because vengeance is what the original game was like the first few years when it had 10x the pvp population and no lag.

You should really do your research and test first just like all of the other negative feedback spammers. Zos already stated this is not a release ready format nor would it ever be. The purpose of the test is to figure out whether it is a hardware issue or a combat design issue. Everyone expects it to be a combat design issue as the game has been inflated and bloated over the years with procs and effects tied to everything.

Pvp in vengeance is already mazing compared to live from multiple standpoints
- Class playstyle diversity
- Active skill impact vs passive stats
- Combat clarity
- I can leave combat within 3s
- Movement speed variability range
- CC spam and telegraphs

yeah back then there was no lag because calculations were client side. it got moved to server side because it was easier to hack. They already subjected us to a bunch of tests in the past with aoe cds, no cross healing outside group, smaller group sizes, and no procs, and that's probably missing a few. How many more tests that result in no changes are we going to have to do?

Also you're not experiencing lag because theres hardly anyone playing compared to live lol. and how can you say there's diversity when its literally the most basic form of combat they could come up with by design?

I would rather them ban accounts that cheat tbh but that is just me, been saying it since the swap to server side. You act like it is a life sentence to do a simple test for one week. Would you rather them do nothing? I don't get the complaint or argument at all?

I never stated that lag is fixed...... we need to see when the test is run live.

I do not think current live is very diverse. The classes all play the same, buff and debuff the same, Do the same relative damage in the same ways, use the same out of class BIS skills.......etc do I need to go on? Stamsorc is basically a worse stamden. Stamcro aswell. Stamdk aswell, stamblade or most nightblades are just slaves to procs or merciless. Templar is a joke.

Diversity wise in vengeance:
- sorc is back to its roots of the timed burst combo kit. Which runs on a deficit sustain model.
- dk is the CC and dot king again, where you control the fight and boil down your opponents
- nb is the melee burst kill closer
- templar is the healing pressure class again.

Without all of the bloat the core differences are FAR more pronounced. Not everyone has every buff because of people whining over 10 years pointing out differences.

JustLovely wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

n333rs wrote: »

like at the moment it isn't at its best but doing nothing at all is substantially more preferable to this vengeance nonsense like im concerned that this won't be totally scrapped despite the extreme amount of negative feedback. There is nothing good in vengeance you're literally a companion made playable. It is horrid.

Funny because vengeance is what the original game was like the first few years when it had 10x the pvp population and no lag.

You should really do your research and test first just like all of the other negative feedback spammers. Zos already stated this is not a release ready format nor would it ever be. The purpose of the test is to figure out whether it is a hardware issue or a combat design issue. Everyone expects it to be a combat design issue as the game has been inflated and bloated over the years with procs and effects tied to everything.

Pvp in vengeance is already mazing compared to live from multiple standpoints
- Class playstyle diversity
- Active skill impact vs passive stats
- Combat clarity
- I can leave combat within 3s
- Movement speed variability range
- CC spam and telegraphs

Where can I buy a pair of those rose colored glasses you're wearing? I'd very much like to share your optimism but I guess I've just been playing ESO too long and have learned the hard way not to get my hopes up when they make promises or design new systems. *Cough, jabs animation.....

Been playing since beta as well. When I see them at least trying something in the right direction I will stop my usual complaining. If you don't they will just continue down the same path that everyone already complains about. Removing power creep is a rare sight to see these days..... Skills and procs are almost multiple paragraphs long. We should start asking to put them in MLA format soon.

@n333rs You seem not to like vengeance mode. Why do you not like vengeance mode?

Please edit your OP with the answer. I am asking this because, without such information and details as to why it is not desirable, the devs will ignore the feedback. After all, it lacks such feedback.

LPapirius wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

Feedback as simple as a thumbs up or thumbs down is just as legitimate as pages long explanations. They may not help the devs tailor their responses as accurately as needed, but a simple like or don't like is still legitimate feedback as a stand alone comment. Besides that, ZOS pretty much does whatever they've decided their going to do regardless of feedback. That's why their investment in this template version of Cyrodiil is so concerning for so many of us primarily PvP players.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have. As many other posters have pointed out, ZOS hasn't even tried limiting shield stacking and heal stacking in groups under Battle Spirit. We've been asking for this for years. ZOS appears to be on the road to scrapping the PvP that put ESO on the map in the first place, and that is very sad.

Feedback that is purposefully misconstrued or biased for the purpose of being spiteful, I cannot subscribe to being helpful.
The only investment theyve made is the instance tools that allow them to have a different skill book between pve and pvp.....Which is extremely helpful and healthy for the game. Everyone for years has been asking for pve and pvp to be balanced seperately. Practically since the dots and hots stacking change almost a decade ago.

The skills you see probably took them a week of work for one person. They are almost all copy and renamed versions of the current skills with parts disabled. It probably took them just as long to write the tooltips as it was to make the skills function.

Not to mention they stated multiple times that template pvp was never intended as the final product.....again not sure why people thought this would be the case. From nearly every aspect it makes no sense.

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

Feedback as simple as a thumbs up or thumbs down is just as legitimate as pages long explanations. They may not help the devs tailor their responses as accurately as needed, but a simple like or don't like is still legitimate feedback as a stand alone comment. Besides that, ZOS pretty much does whatever they've decided their going to do regardless of feedback. That's why their investment in this template version of Cyrodiil is so concerning for so many of us primarily PvP players.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have. As many other posters have pointed out, ZOS hasn't even tried limiting shield stacking and heal stacking in groups under Battle Spirit. We've been asking for this for years. ZOS appears to be on the road to scrapping the PvP that put ESO on the map in the first place, and that is very sad.

Feedback that is purposefully misconstrued or biased for the purpose of being spiteful, I cannot subscribe to being helpful.

"I do not like template pvp, it is limiting" This is fine and good feedback
"I can't believe zos is doing this to the game, how could they remove builds? Im going to quit if they continue with this" yeah these comments are not only purposefully incorrect, but also not helpful in anyway other than baiting random hate commenters to pop up.

The only investment theyve made is the instance tools that allow them to have a different skill book between pve and pvp.....Which is extremely helpful and healthy for the game. Everyone for years has been asking for pve and pvp to be balanced seperately. Practically since the dots and hots stacking change almost a decade ago.

The skills you see probably took them a week of work for one person. They are almost all copy and renamed versions of the current skills with parts disabled. It probably took them just as long to write the tooltips as it was to make the skills function.

Not to mention they stated multiple times that template pvp was never intended as the final product.....again not sure why people thought this would be the case. From nearly every aspect it makes no sense.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

Options like what, remove cyrodil and only have bgs and IC? Can you be more specific what options you think exist? Like i pointed out, they barely invested in anything yet. Why do you think they did a week of work to setup this test?

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

Feedback as simple as a thumbs up or thumbs down is just as legitimate as pages long explanations. They may not help the devs tailor their responses as accurately as needed, but a simple like or don't like is still legitimate feedback as a stand alone comment. Besides that, ZOS pretty much does whatever they've decided their going to do regardless of feedback. That's why their investment in this template version of Cyrodiil is so concerning for so many of us primarily PvP players.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have. As many other posters have pointed out, ZOS hasn't even tried limiting shield stacking and heal stacking in groups under Battle Spirit. We've been asking for this for years. ZOS appears to be on the road to scrapping the PvP that put ESO on the map in the first place, and that is very sad.

Feedback that is purposefully misconstrued or biased for the purpose of being spiteful, I cannot subscribe to being helpful.

"I do not like template pvp, it is limiting" This is fine and good feedback
"I can't believe zos is doing this to the game, how could they remove builds? Im going to quit if they continue with this" yeah these comments are not only purposefully incorrect, but also not helpful in anyway other than baiting random hate commenters to pop up.

The only investment theyve made is the instance tools that allow them to have a different skill book between pve and pvp.....Which is extremely helpful and healthy for the game. Everyone for years has been asking for pve and pvp to be balanced seperately. Practically since the dots and hots stacking change almost a decade ago.

The skills you see probably took them a week of work for one person. They are almost all copy and renamed versions of the current skills with parts disabled. It probably took them just as long to write the tooltips as it was to make the skills function.

Not to mention they stated multiple times that template pvp was never intended as the final product.....again not sure why people thought this would be the case. From nearly every aspect it makes no sense.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

Do you even know what this mode is? It is them investing in their current system, by testing here...🤦

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

Feedback as simple as a thumbs up or thumbs down is just as legitimate as pages long explanations. They may not help the devs tailor their responses as accurately as needed, but a simple like or don't like is still legitimate feedback as a stand alone comment. Besides that, ZOS pretty much does whatever they've decided their going to do regardless of feedback. That's why their investment in this template version of Cyrodiil is so concerning for so many of us primarily PvP players.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have. As many other posters have pointed out, ZOS hasn't even tried limiting shield stacking and heal stacking in groups under Battle Spirit. We've been asking for this for years. ZOS appears to be on the road to scrapping the PvP that put ESO on the map in the first place, and that is very sad.

Feedback that is purposefully misconstrued or biased for the purpose of being spiteful, I cannot subscribe to being helpful.

"I do not like template pvp, it is limiting" This is fine and good feedback
"I can't believe zos is doing this to the game, how could they remove builds? Im going to quit if they continue with this" yeah these comments are not only purposefully incorrect, but also not helpful in anyway other than baiting random hate commenters to pop up.

The only investment theyve made is the instance tools that allow them to have a different skill book between pve and pvp.....Which is extremely helpful and healthy for the game. Everyone for years has been asking for pve and pvp to be balanced seperately. Practically since the dots and hots stacking change almost a decade ago.

The skills you see probably took them a week of work for one person. They are almost all copy and renamed versions of the current skills with parts disabled. It probably took them just as long to write the tooltips as it was to make the skills function.

Not to mention they stated multiple times that template pvp was never intended as the final product.....again not sure why people thought this would be the case. From nearly every aspect it makes no sense.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

Options like what, remove cyrodil and only have bgs and IC? Can you be more specific what options you think exist? Like i pointed out, they barely invested in anything yet. Why do you think they did a week of work to setup this test?

ZOS has never tried limiting heal and shield stacking for groups under Battle Spirit. They've never tried removing the most calculation intensive sets from Cyrodiil, like the sets with stacking buffs. They've never tried reverting the upgrading/downgrading keeps, bridges and gates.

There are a lot of things that are valid suggestions ZOS has never tried to keep the existing Cyrodiil game mode working properly. ....but as someone who spends a lot of time on this forum you already knew this was the answer to your question. Now please answer mine.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

They cant change individual effects through battlespirit. They stated it wont allow that. Even if they could its silly from a performance standpoint to even have the extra layer of battlespirit and different event calls that now have to check every tick of an ability or dot......which is why in vengeance this is removed.

They did try to limit proc sets and cross healing but the tests did not show enough improvements to implement across the game. The no proc campaign was loved by alot of people, but the general population will always flock to the most high end game campaign possible.

The bridge/gate and vol change was a disaster. The hammer alone proves that grouping players and stacking effects is an issue. Numerically they probably havent been able to prove that though.

Why is zos doing this, it all depend on money and who allocates it. Like I already said its the director level people who demand clear answers to be able to show even higher levels that their team requires more funding to carry through with changes of the scale needed. Its typical silicone valley corporate structure when it comes to changes like this.

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed]

Feedback as simple as a thumbs up or thumbs down is just as legitimate as pages long explanations. They may not help the devs tailor their responses as accurately as needed, but a simple like or don't like is still legitimate feedback as a stand alone comment. Besides that, ZOS pretty much does whatever they've decided their going to do regardless of feedback. That's why their investment in this template version of Cyrodiil is so concerning for so many of us primarily PvP players.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have. As many other posters have pointed out, ZOS hasn't even tried limiting shield stacking and heal stacking in groups under Battle Spirit. We've been asking for this for years. ZOS appears to be on the road to scrapping the PvP that put ESO on the map in the first place, and that is very sad.

Feedback that is purposefully misconstrued or biased for the purpose of being spiteful, I cannot subscribe to being helpful.

"I do not like template pvp, it is limiting" This is fine and good feedback
"I can't believe zos is doing this to the game, how could they remove builds? Im going to quit if they continue with this" yeah these comments are not only purposefully incorrect, but also not helpful in anyway other than baiting random hate commenters to pop up.

The only investment theyve made is the instance tools that allow them to have a different skill book between pve and pvp.....Which is extremely helpful and healthy for the game. Everyone for years has been asking for pve and pvp to be balanced seperately. Practically since the dots and hots stacking change almost a decade ago.

The skills you see probably took them a week of work for one person. They are almost all copy and renamed versions of the current skills with parts disabled. It probably took them just as long to write the tooltips as it was to make the skills function.

Not to mention they stated multiple times that template pvp was never intended as the final product.....again not sure why people thought this would be the case. From nearly every aspect it makes no sense.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

Options like what, remove cyrodil and only have bgs and IC? Can you be more specific what options you think exist? Like i pointed out, they barely invested in anything yet. Why do you think they did a week of work to setup this test?

ZOS has never tried limiting heal and shield stacking for groups under Battle Spirit. They've never tried removing the most calculation intensive sets from Cyrodiil, like the sets with stacking buffs. They've never tried reverting the upgrading/downgrading keeps, bridges and gates.

There are a lot of things that are valid suggestions ZOS has never tried to keep the existing Cyrodiil game mode working properly. ....but as someone who spends a lot of time on this forum you already knew this was the answer to your question. Now please answer mine.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

They cant change individual effects through battlespirit. They stated it wont allow that. Even if they could its silly from a performance standpoint to even have the extra layer of battlespirit and different event calls that now have to check every tick of an ability or dot......which is why in vengeance this is removed.

They did try to limit proc sets and cross healing but the tests did not show enough improvements to implement across the game. The no proc campaign was loved by alot of people, but the general population will always flock to the most high end game campaign possible.

The bridge/gate and vol change was a disaster. The hammer alone proves that grouping players and stacking effects is an issue. Numerically they probably havent been able to prove that though.

Why is zos doing this, it all depend on money and who allocates it. Like I already said its the director level people who demand clear answers to be able to show even higher levels that their team requires more funding to carry through with changes of the scale needed. Its typical silicone valley corporate structure when it comes to changes like this.

No, they never tried limiting heal stacking and shield stacking IN GROUPS, as what was suggested.

It's something that needs to be approached very carefully as current PvE content is somewhat balanced around stacking heals and shields as well - I am talking about mid tier hard mode and trifecta groups where you will see a lot of echoing vigor stacking and barrier/contingency/the blind/combat physician/ gibbering/impervious/pragmatic being stacked in some combination to get thru Ansuul HM and various parts of Lucent HM, two of the trials with lower HM and trifecta completion rates than the rest.

Anything that affects the early endgame PvE population needs to be handled extremely delicately.

(Which is why separating PvE and PvP balancing would be absolutely lovely - the two types of content have different needs.)

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

Feedback as simple as a thumbs up or thumbs down is just as legitimate as pages long explanations. They may not help the devs tailor their responses as accurately as needed, but a simple like or don't like is still legitimate feedback as a stand alone comment. Besides that, ZOS pretty much does whatever they've decided their going to do regardless of feedback. That's why their investment in this template version of Cyrodiil is so concerning for so many of us primarily PvP players.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have. As many other posters have pointed out, ZOS hasn't even tried limiting shield stacking and heal stacking in groups under Battle Spirit. We've been asking for this for years. ZOS appears to be on the road to scrapping the PvP that put ESO on the map in the first place, and that is very sad.

Feedback that is purposefully misconstrued or biased for the purpose of being spiteful, I cannot subscribe to being helpful.

"I do not like template pvp, it is limiting" This is fine and good feedback
"I can't believe zos is doing this to the game, how could they remove builds? Im going to quit if they continue with this" yeah these comments are not only purposefully incorrect, but also not helpful in anyway other than baiting random hate commenters to pop up.

The only investment theyve made is the instance tools that allow them to have a different skill book between pve and pvp.....Which is extremely helpful and healthy for the game. Everyone for years has been asking for pve and pvp to be balanced seperately. Practically since the dots and hots stacking change almost a decade ago.

The skills you see probably took them a week of work for one person. They are almost all copy and renamed versions of the current skills with parts disabled. It probably took them just as long to write the tooltips as it was to make the skills function.

Not to mention they stated multiple times that template pvp was never intended as the final product.....again not sure why people thought this would be the case. From nearly every aspect it makes no sense.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

Options like what, remove cyrodil and only have bgs and IC? Can you be more specific what options you think exist? Like i pointed out, they barely invested in anything yet. Why do you think they did a week of work to setup this test?

ZOS has never tried limiting heal and shield stacking for groups under Battle Spirit. They've never tried removing the most calculation intensive sets from Cyrodiil, like the sets with stacking buffs. They've never tried reverting the upgrading/downgrading keeps, bridges and gates.

There are a lot of things that are valid suggestions ZOS has never tried to keep the existing Cyrodiil game mode working properly. ....but as someone who spends a lot of time on this forum you already knew this was the answer to your question. Now please answer mine.

Please answer the question.

Why is ZOS even investing time and money into a whole new mode of PvP before exhausting their options with the system they already have?

They cant change individual effects through battlespirit. They stated it wont allow that. Even if they could its silly from a performance standpoint to even have the extra layer of battlespirit and different event calls that now have to check every tick of an ability or dot......which is why in vengeance this is removed.

They did try to limit proc sets and cross healing but the tests did not show enough improvements to implement across the game. The no proc campaign was loved by alot of people, but the general population will always flock to the most high end game campaign possible.

The bridge/gate and vol change was a disaster. The hammer alone proves that grouping players and stacking effects is an issue. Numerically they probably havent been able to prove that though.

Why is zos doing this, it all depend on money and who allocates it. Like I already said its the director level people who demand clear answers to be able to show even higher levels that their team requires more funding to carry through with changes of the scale needed. Its typical silicone valley corporate structure when it comes to changes like this.

No, they never tried limiting heal stacking and shield stacking IN GROUPS, as what was suggested.

Sorry my first point there should have included hot/dot stacking with "effects" They stated its just not possible through battlespirit easily or performative in any way. It is ingrained in other systems. The only way they can do it is quite literally making a duplicate skill system and make the new skills not stack......which is the whole point of vengeance having its own PVP skill system.

I am convinced that battle spirit is part of the problem with calculations bogging down the server in PvP and that is why they shy away from adding anything new to it.