How Popular Will the "Vengeance" Cyrodiil Instance be?

CrazyKitty · January 21

Skoomah wrote: »

My advice to people who complain about performance, go buy yourself an upgraded computer and sign up for the fastest intemet. ESO will run fine 99% of the time.

As for templated PVP, if it becomes a permanent thing, just make it its own dedicated campaign and allow for the option to also play the existing game mode. Let the player base decide on what they want to play.

Sorry, the performance issues are only rarely on the client side. This is well established. The problems are on the server and code side of the equation.

Joy_Division · January 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

So you prefer your sets to kill other players not your actual abilities!

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Caught in 4k

Devil's advocate time...

Radiant Oppression from safety.

Daedric Curse into Endless Fury spam on an outnumbered target.

Invisible spectral bow from inside a zerg (it was charged up on npcs 10 minutes ago).

Hold block. Wait for stat buffs. Shalks, Storm, then close eyes and spam one button.

Oh. Wait. Let's un-nerf Corrosive Armor. Just an ability, not a proc.

Annoying ... but, that's a fact of life that comes with playing any open world PvP game.

If some scrub is spamming these sorts of Xv1 skills on me (or anyone else) from what they think is relative safety, then provided I have a decent build with some defenses and these players really are scrubs, then I probably will at least have the opportunity to disengage from whatever I am doing, and then try and land a combo on the Xv1er. If they are actually a scrub, then it's likely they won't be comfortable being focused, make a mistake, or just melt because they are so used to Xv1ing and are allergic to defense.

Good players used to regularly be able to do this. Look up PvP clips from like 2016 on youtube.

But when we add things like Tarnished Nightmare, Rush of Agony, Anthelmir's Construct, now the Xv1ers isn't just Jesus Beaming or spectral bowing me, but now I've got to deal with maybe two more additional burst damage instances that are bypassing the global cooldown system ZOS purposefully put into the game. Even if I have a good build, I'm likely screwed because provided I do survive, I'll have to go completely on the defensive to recover and probably wont have the chance to confront the Xv1er. The dynamic is completely different.

ZOS never did understand this because none of their developers have ever played from the perspective of the target in this scenario, only from the Xv1er. Because PvPers have adjusted to this situation by running 35K+ health instead of the 22K we used to have, the devs probably think these proc sets aren't strong enough because the target sometimes still survives.

TechMaybeHic · January 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

So you prefer your sets to kill other players not your actual abilities!

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Caught in 4k

Devil's advocate time...

Radiant Oppression from safety.

Daedric Curse into Endless Fury spam on an outnumbered target.

Invisible spectral bow from inside a zerg (it was charged up on npcs 10 minutes ago).

Hold block. Wait for stat buffs. Shalks, Storm, then close eyes and spam one button.

Oh. Wait. Let's un-nerf Corrosive Armor. Just an ability, not a proc.

It's possible for a templar to fire off a proc while channeling Radiant Oppression and that really eliminates some of the penalties of a channel. Reallly; doesn't matter with just that because they're off GCD as well.

So between bypassing GCD and the damage of procs being more bursty if not even more total damage between its cool downs than a stat set provides to abilities, along with mass pulls, stun, and other utilities; is why procs are a problem. They need to be budgeted to where their overall dps is no more than stat set budgets, and if they provide other utilities, they should be much less. But it's much easier to just remove them

Kickimanjaro · January 21

After checking out each class on the PTS I don't think this campaign will be popular at all... I hope it gets enough play to at least provide needed performance stats but don't know if that's likely.

Nothing encourages group play, there are no synergies, and barely any buffs can be shared with group members.

Weapon choice doesn't seem to matter at all and with no passives it's unclear why we even have them. Let's just punch each other, maybe then the server can keep up...

sarahthes · January 21

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

After checking out each class on the PTS I don't think this campaign will be popular at all... I hope it gets enough play to at least provide needed performance stats but don't know if that's likely.

Nothing encourages group play, there are no synergies, and barely any buffs can be shared with group members.

Weapon choice doesn't seem to matter at all and with no passives it's unclear why we even have them. Let's just punch each other, maybe then the server can keep up...

Hopefully that Q&A they promised comes out next week like they said it might.

Lystrad · January 21

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

Weapon choice doesn't seem to matter at all and with no passives it's unclear why we even have them. Let's just punch each other, maybe then the server can keep up...

My hope on this regard is that this test is just a really bare bones version where they only did the bare minimum (class abilities) to prepare for the test to see how well it functioned at a basic level before going forward with all of the neutral skill lines.

LinusMain · January 21

Since its only for a week it'll probably be fun. Nobody will know what they are doing. Funny we have less skills than the companions lol.

sarahthes · January 21

My thought is that if they don't get meaningful data, cyrodiil eventually just gets shut down if it can't be fixed.

MincMincMinc · January 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

So you prefer your sets to kill other players not your actual abilities!

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Caught in 4k

Devil's advocate time...

Radiant Oppression from safety.

Daedric Curse into Endless Fury spam on an outnumbered target.

Invisible spectral bow from inside a zerg (it was charged up on npcs 10 minutes ago).

Hold block. Wait for stat buffs. Shalks, Storm, then close eyes and spam one button.

Oh. Wait. Let's un-nerf Corrosive Armor. Just an ability, not a proc.

What is the point being made?

CrazyKitty wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

I'm terrified that ZOS will make this rule set mandatory for all camps. That will be the end of ESO for me if they do.

Me too. It feels like this will be the game mode they go with regardless of how the test campaign plays out.

There was no mention of this at all, I wouldn't cry for them to avoid testing or fixing the campaign because you are afraid of the results of what amounts to an alpha test.

MincMincMinc · January 21

sarahthes wrote: »

My thought is that if they don't get meaningful data, cyrodiil eventually just gets shut down if it can't be fixed.

This test will provide two main points of information.

If the game is boiled down to its core functions, can the server support it? If yes, this means zos can actually do something to fix performance. Reduce complicated procs, added effects, etc. If no performance gain is seen, zos can't do anything to help pvp and cyro will be abandoned until people stop playing it.
This will provide a baseline number of players that can be on the server. This will be able to be compared to current live data where they can figure out a range of what needs to change. Individual systems disabled in this test would be evaluated for performance impact and be addressed.

Estin · January 21

Lystrad wrote: »

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

Weapon choice doesn't seem to matter at all and with no passives it's unclear why we even have them. Let's just punch each other, maybe then the server can keep up...

My hope on this regard is that this test is just a really bare bones version where they only did the bare minimum (class abilities) to prepare for the test to see how well it functioned at a basic level before going forward with all of the neutral skill lines.

The patch notes state it's the bare minimum to test performance. They even turned off mail, quests, and achievements so there is less to calculate. I don't think the stream or prior newsletter ever suggested that this was only what we'll get. In fact, the newsletter suggests more will be added to it, and after doing some reading around, it looks like passives, sets, etc may eventually be added too.

I do hope that anybody who cares about cyrodiil or PvP in general does participate in the test and provides proper feedback instead of avoiding it because the first test is barebones.

sarahthes · January 21

MincMincMinc wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

My thought is that if they don't get meaningful data, cyrodiil eventually just gets shut down if it can't be fixed.

This test will provide two main points of information.
If the game is boiled down to its core functions, can the server support it? If yes, this means zos can actually do something to fix performance. Reduce complicated procs, added effects, etc. If no performance gain is seen, zos can't do anything to help pvp and cyro will be abandoned until people stop playing it.

This will provide a baseline number of players that can be on the server. This will be able to be compared to current live data where they can figure out a range of what needs to change. Individual systems disabled in this test would be evaluated for performance impact and be addressed.

I agree. I just hope enough people engage with it that they get the information they want.

Iriidius · January 22

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

After checking out each class on the PTS I don't think this campaign will be popular at all... I hope it gets enough play to at least provide needed performance stats but don't know if that's likely.

Nothing encourages group play, there are no synergies, and barely any buffs can be shared with group members.

Weapon choice doesn't seem to matter at all and with no passives it's unclear why we even have them. Let's just punch each other, maybe then the server can keep up...

Let us not pretend that everyone wants group buffs

Group play is already encouraged by the fact that a group of x players can use x skills per global cool down and x players have to be killed to kill the whole group.
It doesn't need additional encouragement in form of group buffs/heals and synergies unuseable by solo players making every group menber stronger than a soloplayer.
Strength already increases linear with number of members, it should not be a quadratical increase.

Group buffs/synergys also only encourage regular groups with constant members and disencourage grouping with randoms because making the builds (compatible to each other) takes time.
Template builds encourage everyone to group with everyone. There are no people with too bad or unfit builds anymore.

This campaign will not be very popular among ballgroups and other groups relying on synergy and buff-sharing.
For soloplayer, zergsurfer, pugs, casual groups and majority of smallscaler and anyone else not using coordinated builds sharing group buffs and synergy the removal of them is a good thing making them more competitive rather than prey for ballgroups.

katorga · January 22

sarahthes wrote: »

My thought is that if they don't get meaningful data, cyrodiil eventually just gets shut down if it can't be fixed.

I think shutting down Cyro and IC is the goal.

BGs only.

AngryPenguin · January 22

katorga wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

My thought is that if they don't get meaningful data, cyrodiil eventually just gets shut down if it can't be fixed.

I think shutting down Cyro and IC is the goal.

BGs only.

I share your concern.

ZOS_Kevin · January 22

katorga wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

My thought is that if they don't get meaningful data, cyrodiil eventually just gets shut down if it can't be fixed.

I think shutting down Cyro and IC is the goal.

BGs only.

It is not. Improving the overall experience is the goal. And getting the data needed is essential to improvements.

moo_2021 · January 22

Durham wrote: »

So you prefer your sets to kill other players not your actual abilities!

I prefer fewer active abilities because it means less GCD usage and quicker reaction.

It's not only about kill. People use sets to heal, to raise shields, to buff and debuff and scribing skills to combine attacks with buffs and debuffs. There is a lot of value in saving manual actions in PvP, even if it results in less damage.

katorga · January 22

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

My thought is that if they don't get meaningful data, cyrodiil eventually just gets shut down if it can't be fixed.

I think shutting down Cyro and IC is the goal.

BGs only.

It is not. Improving the overall experience is the goal. And getting the data needed is essential to improvements.

Thank you for stating that as fact!

xXCJsniperXx7 · January 22

I think this is a good start to improving cyrodiil. I see vengeance campaign as a way to make cyrodiil more open to us pve players as this design would definitively separate pvp and pve. There's also the fact of the matter that rule sets and regulations are essential, required, to make competitive games. Else wise, you have whats here in pvp (BIS, meta, exploits, etc.) which truly kills the interests to the majority. Thus, setting new standards like in the vengeance campaign is a step in the right path. As it's studied, more can be added, subtracted, or changed to optimize cyrodiil into a better feature of eso.

Poss · January 22

I am a little confused so perhaps I’m missing something(?)

Back in 2015, speaking from a console player, we were all playing on the last generation consoles, the pop caps were quadruple what they are today and performance seemed fine.

Fast forward 10 years, the devices we play on are way more powerful, the population caps are drastically reduced, internet connections are stronger, faster and way more reliable but why is it unplayable now?

Estin · January 22

Poss wrote: »

I am a little confused so perhaps I’m missing something(?)

Back in 2015, speaking from a console player, we were all playing on the last generation consoles, the pop caps were quadruple what they are today and performance seemed fine.

Fast forward 10 years, the devices we play on are way more powerful, the population caps are drastically reduced, internet connections are stronger, faster and way more reliable but why is it unplayable now?

Back then, calculations were done client side. I forget when, but they moved all calculations to server side because client side calculations allowed for rampant cheating. We're talking about phasing through walls, jumping insanely high, spamming unlimited meteor ults. Having everything done on the server removed that, but put a lot of strain on the server instead. As the game aged, calculations became more complex which in turn worsened performance even further.

YandereGirlfriend · January 22

Estin wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

I am a little confused so perhaps I’m missing something(?)

Back in 2015, speaking from a console player, we were all playing on the last generation consoles, the pop caps were quadruple what they are today and performance seemed fine.

Fast forward 10 years, the devices we play on are way more powerful, the population caps are drastically reduced, internet connections are stronger, faster and way more reliable but why is it unplayable now?

Back then, calculations were done client side. I forget when, but they moved all calculations to server side because client side calculations allowed for rampant cheating. We're talking about phasing through walls, jumping insanely high, spamming unlimited meteor ults. Having everything done on the server removed that, but put a lot of strain on the server instead. As the game aged, calculations became more complex which in turn worsened performance even further.

IMO, there's a lot of merit to moving certain calculations back to the client. You can still execute checks on the server to monitor for cheats, though some will inevitably go undetected.

But that's a price that I know that I am willing to pay. And basically everyone else whom I know that PvPs.

katorga · January 22

Estin wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

I am a little confused so perhaps I’m missing something(?)

Back in 2015, speaking from a console player, we were all playing on the last generation consoles, the pop caps were quadruple what they are today and performance seemed fine.

Fast forward 10 years, the devices we play on are way more powerful, the population caps are drastically reduced, internet connections are stronger, faster and way more reliable but why is it unplayable now?

Back then, calculations were done client side. I forget when, but they moved all calculations to server side because client side calculations allowed for rampant cheating. We're talking about phasing through walls, jumping insanely high, spamming unlimited meteor ults. Having everything done on the server removed that, but put a lot of strain on the server instead. As the game aged, calculations became more complex which in turn worsened performance even further.

Centralized compute is scalable. So thats on ZOS. But I don't think it is really server performance per se.

I think ballgroup aoe spam, location/movement spam and whatnot generates so many updates to all the clients with 41m of the ballgroup that everything just desyncs. I have gotten whispered by ball group members, who mistakenly thought I was in the ball asking why I wasn't running the "desync skills" like I was supposed to, lol.

MincMincMinc · January 22

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

I am a little confused so perhaps I’m missing something(?)

Back in 2015, speaking from a console player, we were all playing on the last generation consoles, the pop caps were quadruple what they are today and performance seemed fine.

Fast forward 10 years, the devices we play on are way more powerful, the population caps are drastically reduced, internet connections are stronger, faster and way more reliable but why is it unplayable now?

Back then, calculations were done client side. I forget when, but they moved all calculations to server side because client side calculations allowed for rampant cheating. We're talking about phasing through walls, jumping insanely high, spamming unlimited meteor ults. Having everything done on the server removed that, but put a lot of strain on the server instead. As the game aged, calculations became more complex which in turn worsened performance even further.

IMO, there's a lot of merit to moving certain calculations back to the client. You can still execute checks on the server to monitor for cheats, though some will inevitably go undetected.

But that's a price that I know that I am willing to pay. And basically everyone else whom I know that PvPs.

Really pvp could go more client side for sure. You just need better ways to report and investigate cheaters. Sadly this would lead to permabans on players not doing anything wrong. ESO requires so much investment, if someone wants to use CE or modify combat client calculations for a 10 year old game where only a few hundred play..... idk let them for a week before they are caught.

Any 1vXer has been accused of cheating. Ive been accused of cheating for silly reasons like the enemy was using roll dodge key while rooted. Which made him roll backwards towards me....... apparently I was hacking the server to make him roll in specific directions.

Getsugatenso · January 24

The game's appeal is over, if it stays like this permanently, it's time to move somewhere else or try to find something good.

MincMincMinc · January 24

Getsugatenso wrote: »

The game's appeal is over, if it stays like this permanently, it's time to move somewhere else or try to find something good.

You realize this is a test right? and the actual combat functions really well skill wise. Combat is much clearer and skill based now.

The concept of gear buffs your skills that you use may actually be more important than buying the newest DLC complicated and overloaded proc set.

Getsugatenso · January 24

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Getsugatenso wrote: »

The game's appeal is over, if it stays like this permanently, it's time to move somewhere else or try to find something good.

You realize this is a test right? and the actual combat functions really well skill wise. Combat is much clearer and skill based now.

The concept of gear buffs your skills that you use may actually be more important than buying the newest DLC complicated and overloaded proc set.

This is not a solution, making everything that exists in the game useless and that motivates many players to play, which in my case is to create builds and test sets in PvP with authorial builds and fight the meta. It's just a test, I have my suspicions and the sets are part of the premise of the game and the identity of each character, if you take that away it's just another League of Legends.

MincMincMinc · January 24

Getsugatenso wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Getsugatenso wrote: »

The game's appeal is over, if it stays like this permanently, it's time to move somewhere else or try to find something good.

You realize this is a test right? and the actual combat functions really well skill wise. Combat is much clearer and skill based now.

The concept of gear buffs your skills that you use may actually be more important than buying the newest DLC complicated and overloaded proc set.

This is not a solution, making everything that exists in the game useless and that motivates many players to play, which in my case is to create builds and test sets in PvP with authorial builds and fight the meta. It's just a test, I have my suspicions and the sets are part of the premise of the game and the identity of each character, if you take that away it's just another League of Legends.

Correct, this is not a solution..... it is a test.

Who said they are going to remove builds and sets? (nobody). Half of the lategame players are pvpers. Which are a very consistent and low demand source of income for zos. Sets are in many cases the only reason people buy dlc, why would they prevent one of the core longterm playerbases from using sets? What would happen to the ingame economy when suddenly half the players stop needing to buy dlc? gear? Enchants? potions? etc.

BardokRedSnow · March 24

All they had to do was turn off heal stacking. None of this extra stuff was necessary. Kill heal stacking, and bring back the damage meta of hrothgar days and beyond, and Cyrodiil would be fun again.

Instead they’ve pushed away so much of what little remains of the fanbase for no reason at all.

sans-culottes · March 24

Getsugatenso wrote: »

The game's appeal is over, if it stays like this permanently, it's time to move somewhere else or try to find something good.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I do not consider this the primary appeal of ESO, though. As has been mentioned many times, they are merely testing things.