meta is fine, but when the meta picks a degrees of magnitudes better than everything else it becomes boring and uninteractive

the current meta picks auto win even skill match ups and can choose to not lose any fight they want

TBF, the PvP meta has almost always been horribly unbalanced, just with differing flavors at the top. How quickly the players seem to have forgotten:
U34 was probably the last (and probably also the only) time we actually had a relatively balanced meta outside of 2 specific specs:
- Savage werewolf proc stamsorc (which was too strong)
- magblade (which was too weak).

U35 completely destroyed that balance though, gutting all sorcs, overbuffing NB/DK and Warden and transformed plar from a melee brawler to ranged nuker. Every patch since then has just been a complete mess of over buffing (see ward) or over nerfing (see necro/plar) to try (and fail) to bring that balance back.

On the topic of current ward sorc specifically, speaking from experience here, take away ward (leaving heal soul/vibrant shroud as the burst heal option) OR reduce max mag potential by about 10% (bound aegis max mag) and sorc basically drops down to DKs level (which is a decent spot). The current state of Ward combined with the ability to stack that much max mag is hard carrying magsorcs current power imbalance in PvP.

Cloak still does cloak things. Nightblade is still very strong, even with that skill change.

I see way more wardens then anything else!

VinnyGambini wrote: »

The way I see it:

D tier- necro
C tier- arcanist, templar
B tier- warden , dk
A tier- nightblade
S tier- none
S + - sorcerer.

So its really easy to fix, necro needs big buff, arc and templar small buffs, nb small survivability nerf, sorcerer needs dramatic nerf in basically any field.

Thats all we need.

I think plar and warden are a tier and nb is s tier. But I do agree with the sentiment I think you are trying to relay here.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

People severely overrate how strong NB is, especially now after the cloak changes. Outside of sorc being too strong and necro being quite awkward (outside of certain group scenarios) PvP balance isn't too awful. It ain't perfect by any means and some fine tunement here and there for certain classes (like templar and arc) would be nice, but sorc is the only really " S tier" spec at the moment that need some adjustments (mainly hardened ward).

That is because people for the most part don't "update" their opinion on things they don't use or play much. Usually it takes like minimum 1 year for this to happen and for the new "public opinion" to establish. If you play NB a lot, then you know what I know & this knowledge will spread over time.

However, If you are on the "receiving end" only, as you don't play certain class at all, then you won't be objective and would most likely demand more nerfs (if something will ever dare to kill you), or buffs to what is familiar to you and you think it requires them.

NB with pre-nerf cloak & Veiled Strike in Shadow skill line for the most part was in A++ or S tier, but only for solo PvP. Even back then, class was really bad in a group play PvP & PvE and mediocre for solo PvE at best.

With changes that were made, I would guess NB will go to "A" or "A minus" in solo PvP & overall B or B+ (when taking into account all types of content). But again - it will take some time.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

People severely overrate how strong NB is, especially now after the cloak changes. Outside of sorc being too strong and necro being quite awkward (outside of certain group scenarios) PvP balance isn't too awful. It ain't perfect by any means and some fine tunement here and there for certain classes (like templar and arc) would be nice, but sorc is the only really " S tier" spec at the moment that need some adjustments (mainly hardened ward).

That is because people for the most part don't "update" their opinion on things they don't use or play much. Usually it takes like minimum 1 year for this to happen and for the new "public opinion" to establish. If you play NB a lot, then you know what I know & this knowledge will spread over time.

However, If you are on the "receiving end" only, as you don't play certain class at all, then you won't be objective and would most likely demand more nerfs (if something will ever dare to kill you), or buffs to what is familiar to you and you think it requires them.

NB with pre-nerf cloak & Veiled Strike in Shadow skill line for the most part was in A++ or S tier, but only for solo PvP. Even back then, class was really bad in a group play PvP & PvE and mediocre for solo PvE at best.

With changes that were made, I would guess NB will go to "A" or "A minus" in solo PvP & overall B or B+ (when taking into account all types of content). But again - it will take some time.

Idk if that's the same for everyone, I play nb more than any other class and I feel I'm the most critical on that class compared to the others. I know what's broken and that is just reinforced when I fight other nightblades. But I do absolutely agree that some people will call for nerfs on classes they don't play, but sometimes there's a basis for wanting those nerfs. For example when bow proc hits harder than just about any other single target skill in the game, including nightblade ultimates. People will get hit with ridiculous numbers and will rightfully complain about it. Also, I would still consider nb s tier, cloak nerf wasn't much of a nerf at all, it's still very manageable.

On the other hand, there are a handful of players who will play a strong class and go to the forums to defend it because they don't want to see it nerfed. They'll give all sorts of reasons why that class is balanced and not as strong as everyone thinks. Some people will only play the strongest classes with the strongest sets because they're easier to do well on, which they're free to do, but having those people defend things that aren't balanced is counterproductive.

People who play all classes will usually have a better perspective on balance, but even they will have their favorites and biases. In any case, there's no good way of telling which one of those groups people will fall into.

Also, nightblade has always been great for group play, not because of utility or group buffs, which are pretty lacking, but because the damage is so high (mainly referring to aoe) and they have great ult gen. This is their main contribution to group. A lot of groups, be it organized small groups or ball groups, will often have the lead on a nb pulling with rush of agony. Nb is the best class suited for this role. I'm sure people have started to notice that after getting yo yoed all over cyro for a few years now. They also make pretty good healers, especially in larger groups when all other important class buffs are covered. There are also a handful of people who say nb is bad in group because they're referring to groups where everyone is on a self sustaining build and the nb isn't pulling their share of the agro because they're invisible most of the time. For example being in a bg on a non nb with 3 nbs on your team, you'll get focused hard the majority of the match. So I would definitely agree nb is bad in that scenario, but in comped groups they're pretty prevalent and useful contributors.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

NB is fine now that they nerfed Tarnished procs and the infinite disengage reengage (do Sorc next).

I think nb is fine solo. It's when they go full glass cannon and get buffed by group utility sets they can one or two tap most tanky builds. I think this is what zos is going for though, group play, no matter what is or isn’t broken. Group utility sets are the culprit here, but these aren't going anywhere imho.

I also don't think sorc is too bad. The problem imho is ranged damage. I don't think that there is balance between range and melee damage. Sorc takes advantage of this more than most classes. Ranged damage should scale down as you get further away from your target. This just makes sense and aligns with the risk/reward system zos seems to go for with the way they set up combat. If zos would balance this one thing appropriately there would be a lot less complaining about sorc imho.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Blade appropriately runs out of juice now that they fixed Cloak, Plar beam is arguably more toxic than anything Sorc does but ranged Plars can't escape and just get focused down if they miss their kill.

I've been playing my plar a bit more lately (hybrid dizzy stamplar), I can say with certainty that plar is definitely not as slow as people claim. While it's not obviously mobile like a vanishing NB or a streaking sorc, RaT is still providing far too much mobility for what is a cheap, globally available skill that can be used by all classes.

RaT really needs a fat nerf, the reliable mobility (thanks to being both cleanse + immunity to snare/immobilize) it has enabled ever since its release has only ever become more and more problematic as time has gone on.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[RAT] not obviously mobile like a vanishing NB or a streaking sorc...

RaT really needs a fat nerf.

These two statements stand diametrically opposed to each other. You're basically saying one is weaker than two and three so nerf one because everyone has access to it.

Not necessarily. The globally available ability is supposed to be weaker than an equivalent ability locked to a single class, otherwise there's no reason to run that class at all.

I also stated specifically that RaT was less obvious in its provided mobility not that it was strictly weaker than streak/cloak. Streak/cloak are very obvious in their mobility/evasion being very obvious in how they help to evade incoming attacks. RaT is not as obvious because most players don't pay attention to/realise the things RaT enables to evade incoming attacks such as positional desyncs and the resulting forced misses from those desyncs.

Pre ward buff is proof of this. Other classes had just as much mobility as sorc just by slotting RaT, but they also had significantly better healing/mitigation tools which allowed them to build much more rounded builds because sorc needed to invest either entirely into defense (and hit like a wet noodle) or build entirely into offense (and be about as durable as a wet tissue). Ward buff went too far in giving sorc those mitigation/healing tools the other classes had, but it was blatantly obvious pre-ward buff that the generically available speed/mobility was completely out of control to the point where it was not worth running the "speed/mobile" class over the other classes, and it was RaT that was the biggest contributor to that.

RaT was/is clearly too strong as a generically available mobility tool. Lets not ignore RaT just because ward is it's own issue (that only got made because RaT never got the nerf it needed).

RAT is nowhere near comparable to Streak or pre-nerf Cloak, you're still moving the same speed as every other brawler running RAT or Quick Cloak or whatever, and Sorcs can stack that same speed on top of their Streak spam.

VinnyGambini wrote: »

+1 to ranged dmg nerf

Yeah, ranged necros, arcanists, wardens and dks absolutely dominate pvp and deserve ranged dmg nerfs.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Right but when did you last see a melee necro

All melee necros turned into vampire and now they best friend is Arterial Burst.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Blade appropriately runs out of juice now that they fixed Cloak, Plar beam is arguably more toxic than anything Sorc does but ranged Plars can't escape and just get focused down if they miss their kill.

I've been playing my plar a bit more lately (hybrid dizzy stamplar), I can say with certainty that plar is definitely not as slow as people claim. While it's not obviously mobile like a vanishing NB or a streaking sorc, RaT is still providing far too much mobility for what is a cheap, globally available skill that can be used by all classes.

RaT really needs a fat nerf, the reliable mobility (thanks to being both cleanse + immunity to snare/immobilize) it has enabled ever since its release has only ever become more and more problematic as time has gone on.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[RAT] not obviously mobile like a vanishing NB or a streaking sorc...

RaT really needs a fat nerf.

These two statements stand diametrically opposed to each other. You're basically saying one is weaker than two and three so nerf one because everyone has access to it.

Not necessarily. The globally available ability is supposed to be weaker than an equivalent ability locked to a single class, otherwise there's no reason to run that class at all.

I also stated specifically that RaT was less obvious in its provided mobility not that it was strictly weaker than streak/cloak. Streak/cloak are very obvious in their mobility/evasion being very obvious in how they help to evade incoming attacks. RaT is not as obvious because most players don't pay attention to/realise the things RaT enables to evade incoming attacks such as positional desyncs and the resulting forced misses from those desyncs.

Pre ward buff is proof of this. Other classes had just as much mobility as sorc just by slotting RaT, but they also had significantly better healing/mitigation tools which allowed them to build much more rounded builds because sorc needed to invest either entirely into defense (and hit like a wet noodle) or build entirely into offense (and be about as durable as a wet tissue). Ward buff went too far in giving sorc those mitigation/healing tools the other classes had, but it was blatantly obvious pre-ward buff that the generically available speed/mobility was completely out of control to the point where it was not worth running the "speed/mobile" class over the other classes, and it was RaT that was the biggest contributor to that.

RaT was/is clearly too strong as a generically available mobility tool. Lets not ignore RaT just because ward is it's own issue (that only got made because RaT never got the nerf it needed).

RaT already is weaker than cloak and streak so much that I rarely see a nb or sorcerer slot them insteat of cloak and streak nor on top of them despite RaT offering completely distinct boni that could be used on top of streak/cloak and giving minor force that crit stacking nbs need very much nbs rather get major expedition by refreshing path and snare removal and immunity by phantasmal escape which therefore are the true replacement of RaT or use shade and sorc need no movement tool other than streak.

Sorcerer and NB are currently strongest class and cloak and streak always got many nerf requests so it seems like most players not think that RaT needs nerf to make cloak/streak worth slotting over them.

Warden also use birds of prey rather than RaT.

Mobility of RaT is needed on classes without own movement tool because otherwise you get snared down so much that you barely move at all and cant even get to a nearby keep door alive outnumbered.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Blade appropriately runs out of juice now that they fixed Cloak, Plar beam is arguably more toxic than anything Sorc does but ranged Plars can't escape and just get focused down if they miss their kill.

I've been playing my plar a bit more lately (hybrid dizzy stamplar), I can say with certainty that plar is definitely not as slow as people claim. While it's not obviously mobile like a vanishing NB or a streaking sorc, RaT is still providing far too much mobility for what is a cheap, globally available skill that can be used by all classes.

RaT really needs a fat nerf, the reliable mobility (thanks to being both cleanse + immunity to snare/immobilize) it has enabled ever since its release has only ever become more and more problematic as time has gone on.

"A lot of people playing sorc and NB. Know what would be great? If we nerfed every other classes mobility. That would be great for the ranged superiority as well. Having melee move slower and get rooted or snared more. Except warden. That's 1 melee class that needs to keep the same mobility plus minor buff."