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Is AI Automatic Moderation Killing the RP Scene?
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Desiato✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't RP, what I have noticed however is both guild and zone chat have been a lot quieter these days, still see the looking for groups or guild recruiting messages and the occasional question when someone needs help other than that, rarely ever seem to see any jokes, chatting in chat the last few months.
I've noticed zone chat is a lot more boring than it used to be.
I first learned about this "feature" when a pvp streamer was suspended for joking privately with a friend they were playing with. The friend wasn't offended in any way.
The "AI" tool flagged the message, a CSR reviewed it and actioned the player.
Who benefited from this? And yet, in another thread, other players in this forum defended the action!!! Why? This is 1984 level stuff. No hyperbole.
So yeah, anyone who chats freely in ESO is taking a risk. I feel I'm taking a risk by even posting this.
Edited by Desiato on 24 December 2024 01:19spending a year dead for tax reasons7 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YupIf they're soooooo worried about certain things being said they could take a cue from Blizzard and just prevent the message from even being sent if the word is in it.
Literally.
You cannot send a chat message in WoW that contains the N word. Only one they've applied it to right now, but I don't see why it was even necessary. Just.. report... it....
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doabhi✭✭✭YupYes, and it's borderline Privacy Invasion and a good reason for me to terminate my plus membership. It's one thing to check in when something is reported, it is another to have an automated system scrape the chat and flag anything on a set of loose word definitions.
AI is Garbage, it needs to stop. The Industry needs to stop. (And I say this as someone in the tech industry)
Invading people's privacy is a serious legal misstep. (I say this as a European)
People getting autonomously banned/suspended while Role playing/messaging each other is a "Nobody asked you" situation to which ZOS is the offending party.
It needs to stop.9 -
Koshka✭✭✭YupI absolutely agree that this AI moderation is creepy, intrusive and not customer-friendly at all. AI bans do not just affect the RP community, they also apparently target new accounts that are deemed suspicious (and yet, I still see goldseller spam all over the place).
Even if we completely ignore how intrusive this system is, unfairly banning someone might mean not just losing 1 player, but all their friends as well. I don't see how it is a good business decision.6 -
Hrolthar✭✭✭It doesn't inspire confidence for sure if you are too scared to speak to anyone just in case you get banned. Like a weighty ban hammer hovering over your head in case you dare to speak. I too see a change, everywhere is quieter.Edited by Hrolthar on 26 December 2024 19:376 -
Warhawke_80✭✭✭✭✭NopeI like the quiet...““Elric knew. The sword told him, without words of any sort. Stormbringer needed to fight, for that was its reason for existence...”― Michael Moorcock, Elric of Melniboné2 -
Gaebriel0410✭✭✭✭✭NopeNo, as a long time roleplayer I think there's absolutely no reason to be afraid of anything like this.
If any ban happens because of automated moderation, I am pretty sure it would get sorted pretty quickly, roleplay is not exactly some super obscure unknown activity and the TES setting includes lots of dark themes.
And well, roleplay communities can have their fair degree of exaggeration and chinese whispers, or weird popularity contests.
I remember some years back when a roleplayer was apparently unfairly banned, for months the story circulated in the community as people rallied against the wicked ZOS to restore the innocent player's account, much outrage farming, panic and tbh plain fearmongering ensued, resulting in a very cynical and almost paranoid view in regards to bans and moderation policy.
Until in the end, over a year of farming later, it came to light that the ban was in fact 100% justified because the player was caught exploiting, warned for it, and continued doing so, and then pulled a suprised pikachu face when actually caught. The players who went to great lengths to try and appeal the "unjust" ban felt really really bad for basically being used as someone else's popularity campaign vehicle.
So the moral of the story is basically the age old don't believe everything you read on internet.4 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YupPvP zone chat is also depressingly quiet.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps2 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YupWhether worries are justified or not, I know several people who are worried and who have ceased using the chat altogether or are very careful now when using it. This goes beyond roleplay communication, and even includes people who write in a non-English language, who are worried they could trigger a filter by writing a normal word in their native language that looks like a rude one in English.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire5 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Can't kill what's already dead. ZOS dropped the ball when they added Housing and the Mudball memento. People were throwing them at RPers so much that all RP activities were moved into player houses, which hurt the discoverability of RP communities as a whole. It took them years to add the guild finder and by then the damage was already done.
Maybe the RP scene can recover eventually.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
Dojohoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭YupAh yes, the rude practice of using AI to scan the words of people as if we are all miscreants. Zone chat is quieter, almost without any chit-chat. It's mainly guild recruitment and requests for help. I'd say that role-players are just as interested as everyone else in not getting banned.
Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
Might be joking in comments.
-->(((Cyrodiil)))<--0 -
Kyip✭✭✭YupI think a lot of the problems with AI moderation would be resolved if it only moderated cases where a player reports something. All the concerns I see in the rp community are in relation to the AI moderating conversations between consenting parties.Grim Focus Permaglow is still a problem: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641376/grim-focus-permaglow3 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YupHonestly this more then anything might make me leave the game. I dont need to question if im gonna cop a ban for droppin an s-bomb in a private chat.
Forget about lore friendly rp. If you ever posted some of the stuff in the 36 lessons in game chat you would be flagged.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 27 December 2024 23:452 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yup
Instead we're all worried it's the opposite, where player reports are ignored unless something was flagged by the system. It's unfortunately pretty easy to harass people in tells or disrupt zone chats without using Bad Words, in PvP we see the same toxic individuals that get reported for years on end somehow keep getting away with it.I think a lot of the problems with AI moderation would be resolved if it only moderated cases where a player reports something.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps2 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭YupI'm not a roleplayer, true, but this decision to use AI automated system has serious consequences on all the playerbase as a whole.
I mentioned it in other topics, but TL;DR is - I've seen what such overmoderation practices do to the playebase in other games.
I did keep quiet for years before, yes, but now I have even more reasons to be the silent one.
I don't want to lose everything I worked and paid for just because the autmated system
So
- I reject all friend requests
- I reject all guild invites
- I don't chime in when a chit-chat is happening (which is extremly rare nowadays anyway)
- I don't reach out to answer a question asked in the chat
- I don't explain, or participate in the explanation, of mechanics in a Dungeon or Trial (if the run goes wrong I just leave and queue hoping for a better squad)
- I don't ask people what sets they are wearing anymore (if I like the VFX I'll just find it on my own)
- I don't even say "hi", "bb", or "LF [gear set piece]", I just pray to RNG that I get the drop I need.
- I don't ask for help or anything; if I can't solo it with a Companion, I just wait for an opportunity to tag along or abandon the idea.
Meanwhile I see constant spams of gold sellers or "WTB crowns, gift first"
And recently I've even seen a guy running around insulting everyone for winning or losing duels with him.
So my personal experience tells me that the system not only harms the playerbase at large, but also doesn't work properly.
Idk, maybe the player was banned afterwards; he's been doing it for 15 minutes, maybe the ban dropped a minute after I left the area.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YupI personally still use the chat every day when talking to a friend, but there are topics I wouldn't touch and words I wouldn't use, neither as roleplay nor in a factual discussion, because a simple word filter (I'm not even sure if it's truly AI) clearly can't understand context.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire1 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NopeGaebriel0410 wrote: »<snip>
I remember some years back when a roleplayer was apparently unfairly banned, for months the story circulated in the community as people rallied against the wicked ZOS to restore the innocent player's account, much outrage farming, panic and tbh plain fearmongering ensued, resulting in a very cynical and almost paranoid view in regards to bans and moderation policy.
Until in the end, over a year of farming later, it came to light that the ban was in fact 100% justified because the player was caught exploiting, warned for it, and continued doing so, and then pulled a suprised pikachu face when actually caught. The players who went to great lengths to try and appeal the "unjust" ban felt really really bad for basically being used as someone else's popularity campaign vehicle.
So the moral of the story is basically the age old don't believe everything you read on internet.
This is almost always the case across any online game/mmo. It's cyclical.
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Ingenon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I do not roleplay in ESO.
Something is going on with bans. Several weeks ago, a guild mate that I run trials with mentioned in PSN party chat (voice) that they were temporarily banned for something they said in ESO text chat (PS/NA). I have noticed that the ESO chat is much quieter recently. The banter is still happening, but I see it in Discord or hear it in PSN party chat. Now in ESO chat I mostly see folks advertising guilds, asking for help with a world boss, or gold selling.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YupCan't kill what's already dead. ZOS dropped the ball when they added Housing and the Mudball memento. People were throwing them at RPers so much that all RP activities were moved into player houses, which hurt the discoverability of RP communities as a whole. It took them years to add the guild finder and by then the damage was already done.
Maybe the RP scene can recover eventually.
Repeated mudballing is actionable. Ask them to quit, and if they don't, report.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yupboi_anachronism_ wrote: »Honestly this more then anything might make me leave the game. I dont need to question if im gonna cop a ban for droppin an s-bomb in a private chat.
Forget about lore friendly rp. If you ever posted some of the stuff in the 36 lessons in game chat you would be flagged.
Or Molag Bal's full portfolio. Or how vampires in general were created. Or that specific argonian maid.1 -
TheMajority✭✭✭✭✭YupEvery guild I'm in that used to be real active went totally silent because of this
They weren't bad people and they did not harass others, they just scared that any small thing will get a ban if they dare to make a joke the AI don't understandTime flies like an arrow- but fruit flies like a banana.
Sorry for my English, I do not always have a translation tool available. Thank you for your patience with our conversation and working towards our mutual understanding of the topic.3 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭Don't get why all the blame on AI or a chat filter scanning logs for violations when all the software does is flag and report
to a human moderator who makes the decision to ban.
So, it is humans doing the banning not the software, meaning it is draconian policy not technology.2 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NopeFour_Fingers wrote: »Don't get why all the blame on AI or a chat filter scanning logs for violations when all the software does is flag and report
to a human moderator who makes the decision to ban.
So, it is humans doing the banning not the software, meaning it is draconian policy not technology.
That has been confirmed and established multiple times in the past few months. Doesn't matter though because due to cognitive dissonance, despite all evidence to the contrary the playerbase just can't bring themselves to accept it.
Edited by DenverRalphy on 28 December 2024 20:193 -
SteveCampsOut✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
This should be seen as a problem to ZOS because it limits the kinds of connections and trust players can build with each other -- which is a big part of social gaming.
I definitely find ESO and it's forums to be more isolating than any other MMO I have ever played, and I've been online since the 80's. I started online running my own BBS in Texas for two years. Moderated a forum on Delphi.com for several years. Have run a guild in at least 3 MMO's including ESO. I know how to keep the peace, and yet I'm afraid to voice an opinion in ESO. That just isn't right.@ֆȶɛʋɛƈǟʍքֆօʊȶ⍟
Sanguine & Psijic Group Beta Tester.
NA Server:Steforax Soulstrong CH782 Sorcerer ADEU Server:
Grumpy Kahjiti CH782 Dragonknight AD
Rheticia Le Drakisius CH782 Nightblade DC
Razmuzan Thrasmas CH782 Templar EP
Sheenara Soulstrong CH782 Dragonknight DC
Erik Ramzey CH782 Nightblade AD
Growling Kahjiti CH782 Nightblade EP
One of Many Faces CH782 Sorcerer DC
Grumpasaurus Rex CH782 Warden DCGuildmaster of Pacrooti's Hirelings AD Based LGBT Friendly Guild.
Stefrex Souliss CH701 Sorcerer AD
Grumpy Kahjiti CH701 Dragonknight DC
Slithisi Ksissi CH701 Nightblade EP
Pokes-With-Fire CH701 Dragonknight AD
Josie-The-Pussi-Cat CH701 Templar AD
Stug-Grog M'God CH701 Templar DC
One With Many Faces CH701 Nightblade DC
Trixie Truskan CH701 Sorcerer EP
Grumpetasaurus Rex CH701 Warden EP3 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭YupDenverRalphy wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Don't get why all the blame on AI or a chat filter scanning logs for violations when all the software does is flag and report
to a human moderator who makes the decision to ban.
So, it is humans doing the banning not the software, meaning it is draconian policy not technology.
That has been confirmed and established multiple times in the past few months. Doesn't matter though because due to cognitive dissonance, despite all evidence to the contrary the playerbase just can't bring themselves to accept it.
If so, then makes the situation even worse, because otherwise you can blame the technology going wild.
It reminds me of another game; moderators had power trips there to the point chat have been silent for years there.
All was needed was a bad day for a moderator, moderator being around, and you to get their attention to get a suspension.
Or just randomly, cause they've seen your name in the chat logs of the convo that ticked them, and they didn't care.
It was a mess with long lasting consequences, silence in the chats included.
Be it as it may with ESO, it's unhealthy for a community to have a third party in a conversation that makes decisions whenever something is suspension worthy to them or not.
Look what happened with the game and the community.
Whenever it's an AI that flags and humans making decisions, AI making all decisions and humans just reviewing the appeals...it doesn't really matter.
Zones are silent.
Guilds are silent.
People are afraid to utter a word to not be banned and lose everything they paid and worked for.
Social aspects that are part of MMORPG experience are damaged.
The report player button option exists for a reason, and existed since the game launched.
If the player says something you're offended by, report them, then a human reviews it accordingly.
It's as simple as that.
No need to monitor every single conversation that is happening; especially if all parties are consenting to mix Molag Bal's full portfolio with the Argonian Maid for RP purposues in the confines of their own group/squad/guild.5 -
danko355✭✭✭YupManagers: let’s make our game safer to play, what can we do?
Product owners: let’s incorporate AI to monitor chat, even private and group messages and automatically ban every player violating the rules!
Developers: let’s incorporate the AI. Oh wow, we have only 1 week and tight budget? Well, let’s just have everyone banned for bad words, no matter which language they speak, or what is the context (RP? What the hell is RP?)
Players: leave the chats in fear of being banned, stop messaging and interacting with each other, move to discord
And that’s how corporate rules kill the game.4 -
DenverRalphy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NopeOceanchanter wrote: »
Look what happened with the game and the community.DenverRalphy wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Don't get why all the blame on AI or a chat filter scanning logs for violations when all the software does is flag and report
to a human moderator who makes the decision to ban.
So, it is humans doing the banning not the software, meaning it is draconian policy not technology.
That has been confirmed and established multiple times in the past few months. Doesn't matter though because due to cognitive dissonance, despite all evidence to the contrary the playerbase just can't bring themselves to accept it.
Whenever it's an AI that flags and humans making decisions, AI making all decisions and humans just reviewing the appeals...it doesn't really matter.
Zones are silent.
Guilds are silent.
People are afraid to utter a word to not be banned and lose everything they paid and worked for.
Social aspects that are part of MMORPG experience are damaged.
I'm definitely not seeing that. My experience is quite the opposite actually. If anything, over the last few months I find myself having to scroll back more often than I used to because I'm constantly trying to keep up.
Between all public channels and all guild chats, my chat windown is always rolling at a pretty decent clip. I actually kinda miss when public channels were a bit quieter. And I have a rather extensive Block list to keep Public Chat Traders out of my feed.
Edited by DenverRalphy on 28 December 2024 21:180 -
TheMajority✭✭✭✭✭YupFour_Fingers wrote: »Don't get why all the blame on AI or a chat filter scanning logs for violations when all the software does is flag and report
to a human moderator who makes the decision to ban.
So, it is humans doing the banning not the software, meaning it is draconian policy not technology.
the fact that the scans happen at all to cause flagging when nobody wanted to report something is wrong. it's like having somebodies mom always checking over your shoulder.Edited by TheMajority on 28 December 2024 22:09Time flies like an arrow- but fruit flies like a banana.
Sorry for my English, I do not always have a translation tool available. Thank you for your patience with our conversation and working towards our mutual understanding of the topic.7 -
Oceanchanter✭✭✭YupTheMajority wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Don't get why all the blame on AI or a chat filter scanning logs for violations when all the software does is flag and report
to a human moderator who makes the decision to ban.
So, it is humans doing the banning not the software, meaning it is draconian policy not technology.
the fact that the scans happen at all to cause flagging when nobody wanted to report something is wrong. it's like having somebodies mom always checking over your shoulder.
Or HR present at all times, even during your smoke break.1