Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

You’re talking about gameplay from practically a decade ago. The game is different in every aspect.

If DKs did 30% more damage to enemies in direfrost keep, you can still bring a group of Stam Arcanists and shred everything the same way you do now.

the point they are trying to make is it wouldnt change "toxic behavior"

instead of getting kicked for running a non meta spec (say warden dps), back then people were getting kicked for running non-optimal dmg (bow instead of fire staff)

would it make things more interesting? maybe, but it wouldnt change requirements for difficult content, most optimized groups sometimes have different gear setups for each fight in a trial now, changing enemy resists wouldnt do much except change gear/build requirements

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

most people dont run netchs touch because its just a bad set lol, nobody would be using it even if an enemy had weakness to shock dmg

morag tong occasionally has some niche uses in pvp, since it helps boost dmg of lethal arrow and related poison dmg, but in most cases its generally more optimal to run something like swamp raider right now especially if your pairing it with scavenging demise

I think you might be too pessimistic here. Imo the playerbase is not as toxic as you’re thinking. When is the last time someone was kicked from a dungeon for not being a Stam Arcanist? In my experience you only get kicked if your damage is terrible, not for your Class spec. Trials are different in that optimization is taken more seriously which is why Stam Arcanist is mandatory.

Also the only groups changing gear for every single encounter are elite groups on PC so that’s not really true - most people have a few different gear/skill specs or minor skills changes to deal with and that goes for all of Console as well. With a resistances based system player behavior in terms of their swaps would not change so nothing to worry about there.

Your example of Direfrost Keep is not really what I’m proposing... I want for there to be resistances per enemy, not across an entire dungeon/trial.

To clarify, the goal is for different damage types (Class specs) to shine in different aspects of the dungeon/trial. Maybe a Flame DK is stronger against first boss, while an Arcanist is better for adds, while Shock Sorc is better against second boss, while Disease NB is best on last boss but having an Ice Magden is a huge help on a hard part of the last boss. There is reason to take all of these different classes. Maybe you stack more of one type of DPS than another to ease the difficulty of different mechanics. Not every trial will push for every Class spec, but every Class spec should have a large array of content they can shine in while they are “basic” DPS in other content. In comparison to right now, all classes are “basic” DPS except the current best spec which is Stam Arcanist.

Maybe the Resists wouldn’t even need to be extreme to have the desired effect? A Flame Atro’s resistance to fire could be 20% mitigation, while their Vulnerability to Frost could be 20%, that way the burden of the “weaker” classes against that type of enemy are not overbearing. And there is also a huge lore aspect to this, which is that it makes no sense for all damage types to affect an enemy like a Flame Atronach in the first place.

But anyway that’s just my idea! So many games use this system because it’s fun to play diverse character specs. I completed all Dungeon and Trial trifectas, many of them numerous times, and yet I’ve had to be Stam Arcanist ever since Necrom…. It sucks and made me want to quit. If my progs weren’t with actual friends of mine then there’s no chance I would have stuck around.

i wasnt saying it is that toxic, but there are times that it can be

and this kind of thing did already exist in the game at a point, i think fire atros used to have 10% resist to fire and -10% resist to frost dmg but was removed a long time ago, i believe it was in an effort to make things less complicated

the "toxic" examples that come up are mainly from sweaty endgame stuff, where a 10% increase or decrease in enemy resistances would make a larger impact on how the group wants to comp

if you had a HM trial boss that was weak to shock for example, the group leader might require every dps to use a shock destro for that fight (between scribing and destro it wouldnt really matter much on the class selection), if each boss had different resistances then i dont think it would change class comps much but it would change gear comps drastically

this would put more pressure on the group to carry even more sets (more sets = more mats/transmutes and inventory management for tight bag space) to try to optimize each boss based on resistances

I can see your point about swapping to Lightning staff and more gear being needed, but that’s only true if no other changes happen. In fact we would mainly still just use Arcanist DPS with Dual Daggers because balance is a mess right now.

ZOS needs to buff the many currently useless Class specs, with the sole intention of encouraging what should be their inherent themes and damage types (think Disease NB, Flame Templar, or Shock Sorc).
Weapons should also grant more power to abilities that make sense, such as Melee Weapons buffing melee attacks, Lightning Staff buffing Shock Damage done, etc. Also might help to differentiate Magicka vs Stamina a bit within Classes based on your damage type emphasis, which is sorely needed ever since Hybridization purely made one spec best on every class. This isn’t the case right now, which is why a weapon change from Bow to Lightning Staff leads to such little difference like you mentioned.

No rebalance will happen though, I’m saying all of this for nothing. We’ll all just keep on using our Stam Arcanist DW DPS to clear everything just like we have for well over a year.

that kind of idea is basically "undo hybridization" which at this stage of the game i think is unlikely to happen unless they wanted to massively shift the meta again

wardens kind of had a taste of that gameplay when they had a passive that buffed higher if they were using an ice staff, and then you had all the stam wardens feeling shafted from that

if the passive was built into the weapon line instead of the class it might have made a bit more sense, but i dont really see the devs going that direction right now

It’s not really undoing hybridization though, but rather improving it. There is still tons of hybridization: damage skills with dual costs, buff skills which can cost either resource, etc. The idea naturally just adds a small form of differentiation so one build doesn’t always trump everything else. If hybridization in its current state is so good, why is PvE Stamina Arc spec superior on the Arc class? Where are the Magicka Arcs? I’ve literally never seen one because they are objectively so much worse in all scenarios. Sounds like a design failure to me.

Nothing I say will change the direction ZOS takes but it’s fun to discuss ideas we would be glad to see. Plenty of users have great ideas. There’s a eso content creator by the name of Skinnycheeks who made an awesome video recently regarding a plethora of ideas he had, but mainly about item set reworks which sounds WAY more fun and interesting than the current stuff we have. That vid has spread like a wildfire in my discords and everyone seems to agree. Nothing will change though. They won’t even ask the community what we would like to see in the future.

using your example, a stam arc is objectively better is because the stam version of flail is objectively better

the mag flail is a crux consumer which doesnt stack well with beam also being a consumer, which means a mags only crux generator becomes runeblades, which lack all of the aoe and utility that flail does

that has basically nothing to do with weapon selection though

on my arc i use a bow, i dont like dual wield, still works plenty well enough to me

if they changed weapons to buff a specific dmg type, i could end up being forced to use a resto staff (as that would likely fill the role of "buff magic dmg", as the other 3 staves already have specific elements, and beam is primarily magic dmg, which means it would be suboptimal to use any stamina weapon too)

that would then be going against the "play how you want" mantra the devs have been aiming for when you cant use the weapon you want because your class primary dmg is something else, especially if the bonus was large enough

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

You’re talking about gameplay from practically a decade ago. The game is different in every aspect.

If DKs did 30% more damage to enemies in direfrost keep, you can still bring a group of Stam Arcanists and shred everything the same way you do now.

the point they are trying to make is it wouldnt change "toxic behavior"

instead of getting kicked for running a non meta spec (say warden dps), back then people were getting kicked for running non-optimal dmg (bow instead of fire staff)

would it make things more interesting? maybe, but it wouldnt change requirements for difficult content, most optimized groups sometimes have different gear setups for each fight in a trial now, changing enemy resists wouldnt do much except change gear/build requirements

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

most people dont run netchs touch because its just a bad set lol, nobody would be using it even if an enemy had weakness to shock dmg

morag tong occasionally has some niche uses in pvp, since it helps boost dmg of lethal arrow and related poison dmg, but in most cases its generally more optimal to run something like swamp raider right now especially if your pairing it with scavenging demise

I think you might be too pessimistic here. Imo the playerbase is not as toxic as you’re thinking. When is the last time someone was kicked from a dungeon for not being a Stam Arcanist? In my experience you only get kicked if your damage is terrible, not for your Class spec. Trials are different in that optimization is taken more seriously which is why Stam Arcanist is mandatory.

Also the only groups changing gear for every single encounter are elite groups on PC so that’s not really true - most people have a few different gear/skill specs or minor skills changes to deal with and that goes for all of Console as well. With a resistances based system player behavior in terms of their swaps would not change so nothing to worry about there.

Your example of Direfrost Keep is not really what I’m proposing... I want for there to be resistances per enemy, not across an entire dungeon/trial.

To clarify, the goal is for different damage types (Class specs) to shine in different aspects of the dungeon/trial. Maybe a Flame DK is stronger against first boss, while an Arcanist is better for adds, while Shock Sorc is better against second boss, while Disease NB is best on last boss but having an Ice Magden is a huge help on a hard part of the last boss. There is reason to take all of these different classes. Maybe you stack more of one type of DPS than another to ease the difficulty of different mechanics. Not every trial will push for every Class spec, but every Class spec should have a large array of content they can shine in while they are “basic” DPS in other content. In comparison to right now, all classes are “basic” DPS except the current best spec which is Stam Arcanist.

Maybe the Resists wouldn’t even need to be extreme to have the desired effect? A Flame Atro’s resistance to fire could be 20% mitigation, while their Vulnerability to Frost could be 20%, that way the burden of the “weaker” classes against that type of enemy are not overbearing. And there is also a huge lore aspect to this, which is that it makes no sense for all damage types to affect an enemy like a Flame Atronach in the first place.

But anyway that’s just my idea! So many games use this system because it’s fun to play diverse character specs. I completed all Dungeon and Trial trifectas, many of them numerous times, and yet I’ve had to be Stam Arcanist ever since Necrom…. It sucks and made me want to quit. If my progs weren’t with actual friends of mine then there’s no chance I would have stuck around.

i wasnt saying it is that toxic, but there are times that it can be

and this kind of thing did already exist in the game at a point, i think fire atros used to have 10% resist to fire and -10% resist to frost dmg but was removed a long time ago, i believe it was in an effort to make things less complicated

the "toxic" examples that come up are mainly from sweaty endgame stuff, where a 10% increase or decrease in enemy resistances would make a larger impact on how the group wants to comp

if you had a HM trial boss that was weak to shock for example, the group leader might require every dps to use a shock destro for that fight (between scribing and destro it wouldnt really matter much on the class selection), if each boss had different resistances then i dont think it would change class comps much but it would change gear comps drastically

this would put more pressure on the group to carry even more sets (more sets = more mats/transmutes and inventory management for tight bag space) to try to optimize each boss based on resistances

I can see your point about swapping to Lightning staff and more gear being needed, but that’s only true if no other changes happen. In fact we would mainly still just use Arcanist DPS with Dual Daggers because balance is a mess right now.

ZOS needs to buff the many currently useless Class specs, with the sole intention of encouraging what should be their inherent themes and damage types (think Disease NB, Flame Templar, or Shock Sorc).
Weapons should also grant more power to abilities that make sense, such as Melee Weapons buffing melee attacks, Lightning Staff buffing Shock Damage done, etc. Also might help to differentiate Magicka vs Stamina a bit within Classes based on your damage type emphasis, which is sorely needed ever since Hybridization purely made one spec best on every class. This isn’t the case right now, which is why a weapon change from Bow to Lightning Staff leads to such little difference like you mentioned.

No rebalance will happen though, I’m saying all of this for nothing. We’ll all just keep on using our Stam Arcanist DW DPS to clear everything just like we have for well over a year.

that kind of idea is basically "undo hybridization" which at this stage of the game i think is unlikely to happen unless they wanted to massively shift the meta again

wardens kind of had a taste of that gameplay when they had a passive that buffed higher if they were using an ice staff, and then you had all the stam wardens feeling shafted from that

if the passive was built into the weapon line instead of the class it might have made a bit more sense, but i dont really see the devs going that direction right now

It’s not really undoing hybridization though, but rather improving it. There is still tons of hybridization: damage skills with dual costs, buff skills which can cost either resource, etc. The idea naturally just adds a small form of differentiation so one build doesn’t always trump everything else. If hybridization in its current state is so good, why is PvE Stamina Arc spec superior on the Arc class? Where are the Magicka Arcs? I’ve literally never seen one because they are objectively so much worse in all scenarios. Sounds like a design failure to me.

Nothing I say will change the direction ZOS takes but it’s fun to discuss ideas we would be glad to see. Plenty of users have great ideas. There’s a eso content creator by the name of Skinnycheeks who made an awesome video recently regarding a plethora of ideas he had, but mainly about item set reworks which sounds WAY more fun and interesting than the current stuff we have. That vid has spread like a wildfire in my discords and everyone seems to agree. Nothing will change though. They won’t even ask the community what we would like to see in the future.

using your example, a stam arc is objectively better is because the stam version of flail is objectively better

the mag flail is a crux consumer which doesnt stack well with beam also being a consumer, which means a mags only crux generator becomes runeblades, which lack all of the aoe and utility that flail does

that has basically nothing to do with weapon selection though

on my arc i use a bow, i dont like dual wield, still works plenty well enough to me

if they changed weapons to buff a specific dmg type, i could end up being forced to use a resto staff (as that would likely fill the role of "buff magic dmg", as the other 3 staves already have specific elements, and beam is primarily magic dmg, which means it would be suboptimal to use any stamina weapon too)

that would then be going against the "play how you want" mantra the devs have been aiming for when you cant use the weapon you want because your class primary dmg is something else, especially if the bonus was large enough

You’re making a ton of assumptions about the balance, in no way would an Arcanist DPS need to use a resto staff for damage lol.

There’s a totally different idea in your head from what I’m proposing. Let’s just leave it though I think we will waste our time by pushing even more into this topic which will never matter anyway

Nerouyn wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I just mostly putz around with the quests I do enjoy (mostly base game at this point) and use the DLC content for antiquities and exploration. I have enough issues with aging reflexes and "not really broadband because satellite" internet that "git gud" at combat isn't a real option, and since I'm not now nor have I ever been primarily interested in combat that works for me.

I can do ESO's combat just fine and enjoy the single player, but multiple things about its group content are a major turn off.

As I enter my final month or so of horse training (curse it) for my new (for me) arcanists, I'm considering returning to putz around.

Missed the house I most wanted so that'll be a year or two's wait. Have a few homes I could get some joy of in the meantime.

But also several other quite good games which while not Elder Scrolls, are in some ways more Elder Scrolls in design and more fun for me than ESO.

TaSheen wrote: »

Oh, I do get that! I like housing, but I'm not exceptionally good at it - RIFT's housing was superlative, and I miss it when I start messing with housing here....

Which house did you want? Maybe it won't take so long to come back....