Make the game more interesting and diverse by changing the game mechanics

ZhuJiuyin

"Let player playing new characters with new builds" is the reason for the longevity of many games, and I believe ESO has a good advantage for this, look at our many sets, skills, CP. But we all know that in so many sets , skills, and CP, only a few are really useful.

The lack of novel mechanics is one of the reasons. Just imagine, if a BOSS's mechanism is "500% damage will be taken when attacked by summons", then players will start to use sets such as Mad Tinkerer, Scavenging Demise, and Maw of the Infernal. Sorc and Warden will automatically become popular classes.
If the BOSS's mechanism is to "increase disease damage received by 500%", then players will automatically start using Disease enchantment, and Blighted Blastbones and Relentless Focus will immediately become the most popular skills.
If the BOSS's mechanism is to "forbid players from being healed by other players", then everyone will start carrying healing skills or Restoration Staff.
If the Boss mechanic was "kill all players with resistance below X", then players would start wearing heavy armor, and sets like Grave Guardian would become popular.

Just by adding new mechanisms alone, there are dozens of ways to increase game balance and make unpopular sets and skills popular. There is absolutely no need to use the current excessive nerf and game style-breaking methods.

coop500

FYI Sorcs are already stupidly popular and Warden healers are desired a lot.

Reginald_leBlem

Making particular bosses susceptible to certain kinds of damage would be HILARIOUS, especially if you put multiple bosses susceptible to different damage in the same trial.

Imagine dsr twins with one twin susceptible to ice damage and the other to fire? People would be so mad lol

Taril

It's not really making a game more "Interesting and diverse" by simply slapping on a hard coded "You must use X class or Y set" is it?

All you're doing is shifting the goalpost from one thing to another, not overall making more things viable.

To say nothing about how this doesn't change anything outside of that one singular boss.

You make 1 boss mandate everyone wears heavy armour and then... People will don heavy armour for that boss then take it all off and go back to their Light/Medium armour for literally every other situation in the entire game...

All this does it mean that end game PvE players have to farm for (And upgrade) a ton of sets because various bosses require a specific set to fight... Either that or people just avoid doing the content that those bosses are in so they don't have to bother with all that...

YandereGirlfriend

When I first started playing I was dumbfounded that there wasn't any system of enemy resistances and vulnerabilities like this. You know, like there are in every actual TES game (as well as basically all existing RPGs in some form or another).

People at the time said, "But MMO!" but that seemed like a weak excuse, then and now. It would certainly give an incentive to make more than one character - and for other reasons than for simply surfing the meta with class buffs and nerfs.

Renato90085

I can see *ok we clean first boss (if mech is st dmg),that kick all nb/sorc and swap all arc for other boss*happen in gf

YandereGirlfriend

Renato90085 wrote: »

I can see *ok we clean first boss (if mech is st dmg),that kick all nb/sorc and swap all arc for other boss*happen in gf

It'd be simpler to have it be like Per Trial/Dungeon instead of Per Boss.

Like HOF enemies are all weak to Shock and resistant to Physical, etc.

Necrotech_Master

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

When I first started playing I was dumbfounded that there wasn't any system of enemy resistances and vulnerabilities like this. You know, like there are in every actual TES game (as well as basically all existing RPGs in some form or another).

People at the time said, "But MMO!" but that seemed like a weak excuse, then and now. It would certainly give an incentive to make more than one character - and for other reasons than for simply surfing the meta with class buffs and nerfs.

there actually used to be some slight variances in enemy resistances a really long time ago

if i remember right, i think fire atros for example had 10% resist to fire and -10% resist to ice dmg

i dont remember exactly when this was changed, but everything was given flat armor dmg mitigation and thats been the standard since

Renato90085

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

I can see *ok we clean first boss (if mech is st dmg),that kick all nb/sorc and swap all arc for other boss*happen in gf

It'd be simpler to have it be like Per Trial/Dungeon instead of Per Boss.

Like HOF enemies are all weak to Shock and resistant to Physical, etc.

still bad,if trial/dun need aoe,I think just arc run other type dmg set for combat
Other class not like dk all dmg type is flame,if necro bb can do 200% is crazy and I want this(?, but if combat add>3 you still only can see 6-8 arc run ab...

Soarora

I long for a salamander trial boss like this as salamanders change elements based on what you hit them with. Maybe not a 3-boss trial but a single-boss one. Would make people think about the classes they bring. Would need a warden for frost, a dk for fire, and sorc for shock.

AlnilamE

I'm still waiting for a boss that needs to be healed to death!

Stafford197

A lot of people don’t understand how much of a disaster the Character Stats are in this game.

We have:
• Flat Resistances and Spell Damage, which convert confusingly into % values but also exist separately from %mitigation and %damage. Why?
• We have Offensive Penetration, which exists to cut through Flat Resistances, further compounding on the issue while also allowing you to build into a potential damage loss on your build. Why?
• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?
• An unfinished Hybridization system which has stuff such as Weapon vs Spell stats, despite them being the same stat… almost. Since a few skills/sources still provide one or another. Totally confusing and pointless
Oh yeah, and how about gaining 559 Critical Chance? Why not tell us a %?

Character stats are overcomplicated for no reason, all encounters boringly favor “MAX DPS OUTPUT” over all else instead of any kind of variety, and nearly all sets in the game are completely trash at all levels and situations.

It’s honestly a huge issue with this game. Not something a new player will immediately notice, but this is why basically all builds (for each role) run the exact same gear despite the astronomically large amount of gear sets available to us.

KromedeTheCorrupt

Stafford197 wrote: »

A lot of people don’t understand how much of a disaster the Character Stats are in this game.

We have:
• Flat Resistances and Spell Damage, which convert confusingly into % values but also exist separately from %mitigation and %damage. Why?
• We have Offensive Penetration, which exists to cut through Flat Resistances, further compounding on the issue while also allowing you to build into a potential damage loss on your build. Why?
• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?
• An unfinished Hybridization system which has stuff such as Weapon vs Spell stats, despite them being the same stat… almost. Since a few skills/sources still provide one or another. Totally confusing and pointless
Oh yeah, and how about gaining 559 Critical Chance? Why not tell us a %?

Character stats are overcomplicated for no reason, all encounters boringly favor “MAX DPS OUTPUT” over all else instead of any kind of variety, and the game has easily 500+ completely trash sets.

It’s honestly a huge issue with this game. Not something a new player will immediately notice, but this is why basically all builds (for each role) run the exact same gear despite the astronomically large amount of gear sets available to us.

Until ZOS nerfs them and then we find another set to run and then they nerf that and we will run through all 500+ sets in the game that are all equally trash and nobody will run a set again. Then the game shuts down

sarahthes

Isn't this just WoW mythic +?

ZhuJiuyin

coop500 wrote: »

FYI Sorcs are already stupidly popular and Warden healers are desired a lot.

Sorry, but the logs don't support this statement. Very few teams carry more than 1 sorc, warden DD even less.

ZhuJiuyin

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

Stafford197

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

It would be awesome to see! If balance were based on Resists, combat would be far more visually appealing and lore-friendly to the TES franchise which is extremely important. Teams would also be encouraged to bring along totally unique Class specs to have a well-rounded team and use many currently unused sets. New interesting trial mechanics could also be developed related to damage types.

But the game is 10 years old and currently has its top meta dps spec playing a Warrior with Dual Wield Daggers, who does not actually use his weapons but instead pulls out a book to spam laser beams. This is an Elder Scrolls game btw

Tommy_The_Gun

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

Stafford197

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

You’re talking about gameplay from practically a decade ago. The game is different in every aspect.

If DKs did 30% more damage to enemies in direfrost keep, you can still bring a group of Stam Arcanists and shred everything the same way you do now.

Necrotech_Master

Stafford197 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

You’re talking about gameplay from practically a decade ago. The game is different in every aspect.

If DKs did 30% more damage to enemies in direfrost keep, you can still bring a group of Stam Arcanists and shred everything the same way you do now.

the point they are trying to make is it wouldnt change "toxic behavior"

instead of getting kicked for running a non meta spec (say warden dps), back then people were getting kicked for running non-optimal dmg (bow instead of fire staff)

would it make things more interesting? maybe, but it wouldnt change requirements for difficult content, most optimized groups sometimes have different gear setups for each fight in a trial now, changing enemy resists wouldnt do much except change gear/build requirements

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

most people dont run netchs touch because its just a bad set lol, nobody would be using it even if an enemy had weakness to shock dmg

morag tong occasionally has some niche uses in pvp, since it helps boost dmg of lethal arrow and related poison dmg, but in most cases its generally more optimal to run something like swamp raider right now especially if your pairing it with scavenging demise

Stafford197

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

You’re talking about gameplay from practically a decade ago. The game is different in every aspect.

If DKs did 30% more damage to enemies in direfrost keep, you can still bring a group of Stam Arcanists and shred everything the same way you do now.

the point they are trying to make is it wouldnt change "toxic behavior"

instead of getting kicked for running a non meta spec (say warden dps), back then people were getting kicked for running non-optimal dmg (bow instead of fire staff)

would it make things more interesting? maybe, but it wouldnt change requirements for difficult content, most optimized groups sometimes have different gear setups for each fight in a trial now, changing enemy resists wouldnt do much except change gear/build requirements

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

most people dont run netchs touch because its just a bad set lol, nobody would be using it even if an enemy had weakness to shock dmg

morag tong occasionally has some niche uses in pvp, since it helps boost dmg of lethal arrow and related poison dmg, but in most cases its generally more optimal to run something like swamp raider right now especially if your pairing it with scavenging demise

I think you might be too pessimistic here. Imo the playerbase is not as toxic as you’re thinking. When is the last time someone was kicked from a dungeon for not being a Stam Arcanist? In my experience you only get kicked if your damage is terrible, not for your Class spec. Trials are different in that optimization is taken more seriously which is why Stam Arcanist is mandatory.

Also the only groups changing gear for every single encounter are elite groups on PC so that’s not really true - most people have a few different gear/skill specs or minor skills changes to deal with and that goes for all of Console as well. With a resistances based system player behavior in terms of their swaps would not change so nothing to worry about there.

Your example of Direfrost Keep is not really what I’m proposing... I want for there to be resistances per enemy, not across an entire dungeon/trial.

To clarify, the goal is for different damage types (Class specs) to shine in different aspects of the dungeon/trial. Maybe a Flame DK is stronger against first boss, while an Arcanist is better for adds, while Shock Sorc is better against second boss, while Disease NB is best on last boss but having an Ice Magden is a huge help on a hard part of the last boss. There is reason to take all of these different classes. Maybe you stack more of one type of DPS than another to ease the difficulty of different mechanics. Not every trial will push for every Class spec, but every Class spec should have a large array of content they can shine in while they are “basic” DPS in other content. In comparison to right now, all classes are “basic” DPS except the current best spec which is Stam Arcanist.

Maybe the Resists wouldn’t even need to be extreme to have the desired effect? A Flame Atro’s resistance to fire could be 20% mitigation, while their Vulnerability to Frost could be 20%, that way the burden of the “weaker” classes against that type of enemy are not overbearing. And there is also a huge lore aspect to this, which is that it makes no sense for all damage types to affect an enemy like a Flame Atronach in the first place.

But anyway that’s just my idea! So many games use this system because it’s fun to play diverse character specs. I completed all Dungeon and Trial trifectas, many of them numerous times, and yet I’ve had to be Stam Arcanist ever since Necrom…. It sucks and made me want to quit. If my progs weren’t with actual friends of mine then there’s no chance I would have stuck around.

Nerouyn

On the fence about this one, I am.

The single player TES games didn't have any of this set / build business and are much more popular.

Most set bonuses are epic eye-rollers for me. They make me glad not to bother with the grind for them which usually involves playing content I wouldn't enjoy. So they're a perfect match.

The only monster / helm sets I use are good old simple Troll King and Slimecraw.

That and Twice Born Star + Order's Wrath is great.

However, there is Telvanni Efficiency,

5 items: While you have a living Companion, reduce the cooldown of their abilities by 50%. While you do not have a living Companion, reduce the cost of your Magicka, Stamina, Health, and Ultimate abilities by 8%.

I enjoy player healers. Boring old fashioned healers who heal when someone needs healing.

ESO doesn't offer much of that. Group content is all focused on mechanics, damage avoidance and spamming aoe heals proactively.

Telvanni Efficiency boosts my companion damage enough that even without taunts they will get and keep aggro and I get to actually use and enjoy my heals, making this simple set bonus enormously value adding to the game.

Also the mythic Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet, which I don't have yet but is the only mythic I really want.

1 item: Adds 1650 Offensive Penetration
1 item: Increase your damage done to monsters by 15%, gain Minor Force at all times, increasing your Critical Damage done by 10%, and reduce your Light and Heavy Attack damage by 99%.

The first time I saw a youtube video on ESO's "weaving" I immediately checked its date to see if it was an April Fool's joke. Sadly no.

I see this bonus as my means to potentially play end game group content should I want to, without having to worry about that game design insanity.

Certainly ESO can continue to add as many weird set bonuses as the devs like. I'll continue ignoring them all. But stuff like the above I'd appreciate.

alpha_synuclein

If you've ever participated in one of those "all the pet you can get" type of trials you would have known how much servers enjoy multitude of summons in one instance

On a serious note though, we are going in exactly opposite direction. Everything is made to be (somewhat) working everywhere and all uniquenes is being systematically removed. Just look the hybridization. The path is clear here and I don't see it changing.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

FYI Sorcs are already stupidly popular and Warden healers are desired a lot.

Sorry, but the logs don't support this statement. Very few teams carry more than 1 sorc, warden DD even less.

Logs are showing the more organized side of raiding. A lot of beginner/casual groups don't log or post logs publicly. In entry level groups sorcs are still very common.

Necrotech_Master

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

You’re talking about gameplay from practically a decade ago. The game is different in every aspect.

If DKs did 30% more damage to enemies in direfrost keep, you can still bring a group of Stam Arcanists and shred everything the same way you do now.

the point they are trying to make is it wouldnt change "toxic behavior"

instead of getting kicked for running a non meta spec (say warden dps), back then people were getting kicked for running non-optimal dmg (bow instead of fire staff)

would it make things more interesting? maybe, but it wouldnt change requirements for difficult content, most optimized groups sometimes have different gear setups for each fight in a trial now, changing enemy resists wouldnt do much except change gear/build requirements

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

most people dont run netchs touch because its just a bad set lol, nobody would be using it even if an enemy had weakness to shock dmg

morag tong occasionally has some niche uses in pvp, since it helps boost dmg of lethal arrow and related poison dmg, but in most cases its generally more optimal to run something like swamp raider right now especially if your pairing it with scavenging demise

I think you might be too pessimistic here. Imo the playerbase is not as toxic as you’re thinking. When is the last time someone was kicked from a dungeon for not being a Stam Arcanist? In my experience you only get kicked if your damage is terrible, not for your Class spec. Trials are different in that optimization is taken more seriously which is why Stam Arcanist is mandatory.

Also the only groups changing gear for every single encounter are elite groups on PC so that’s not really true - most people have a few different gear/skill specs or minor skills changes to deal with and that goes for all of Console as well. With a resistances based system player behavior in terms of their swaps would not change so nothing to worry about there.

Your example of Direfrost Keep is not really what I’m proposing... I want for there to be resistances per enemy, not across an entire dungeon/trial.

To clarify, the goal is for different damage types (Class specs) to shine in different aspects of the dungeon/trial. Maybe a Flame DK is stronger against first boss, while an Arcanist is better for adds, while Shock Sorc is better against second boss, while Disease NB is best on last boss but having an Ice Magden is a huge help on a hard part of the last boss. There is reason to take all of these different classes. Maybe you stack more of one type of DPS than another to ease the difficulty of different mechanics. Not every trial will push for every Class spec, but every Class spec should have a large array of content they can shine in while they are “basic” DPS in other content. In comparison to right now, all classes are “basic” DPS except the current best spec which is Stam Arcanist.

Maybe the Resists wouldn’t even need to be extreme to have the desired effect? A Flame Atro’s resistance to fire could be 20% mitigation, while their Vulnerability to Frost could be 20%, that way the burden of the “weaker” classes against that type of enemy are not overbearing. And there is also a huge lore aspect to this, which is that it makes no sense for all damage types to affect an enemy like a Flame Atronach in the first place.

But anyway that’s just my idea! So many games use this system because it’s fun to play diverse character specs. I completed all Dungeon and Trial trifectas, many of them numerous times, and yet I’ve had to be Stam Arcanist ever since Necrom…. It sucks and made me want to quit. If my progs weren’t with actual friends of mine then there’s no chance I would have stuck around.

i wasnt saying it is that toxic, but there are times that it can be

and this kind of thing did already exist in the game at a point, i think fire atros used to have 10% resist to fire and -10% resist to frost dmg but was removed a long time ago, i believe it was in an effort to make things less complicated

the "toxic" examples that come up are mainly from sweaty endgame stuff, where a 10% increase or decrease in enemy resistances would make a larger impact on how the group wants to comp

if you had a HM trial boss that was weak to shock for example, the group leader might require every dps to use a shock destro for that fight (between scribing and destro it wouldnt really matter much on the class selection), if each boss had different resistances then i dont think it would change class comps much but it would change gear comps drastically

this would put more pressure on the group to carry even more sets (more sets = more mats/transmutes and inventory management for tight bag space) to try to optimize each boss based on resistances

Stafford197

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

You’re talking about gameplay from practically a decade ago. The game is different in every aspect.

If DKs did 30% more damage to enemies in direfrost keep, you can still bring a group of Stam Arcanists and shred everything the same way you do now.

the point they are trying to make is it wouldnt change "toxic behavior"

instead of getting kicked for running a non meta spec (say warden dps), back then people were getting kicked for running non-optimal dmg (bow instead of fire staff)

would it make things more interesting? maybe, but it wouldnt change requirements for difficult content, most optimized groups sometimes have different gear setups for each fight in a trial now, changing enemy resists wouldnt do much except change gear/build requirements

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

most people dont run netchs touch because its just a bad set lol, nobody would be using it even if an enemy had weakness to shock dmg

morag tong occasionally has some niche uses in pvp, since it helps boost dmg of lethal arrow and related poison dmg, but in most cases its generally more optimal to run something like swamp raider right now especially if your pairing it with scavenging demise

I think you might be too pessimistic here. Imo the playerbase is not as toxic as you’re thinking. When is the last time someone was kicked from a dungeon for not being a Stam Arcanist? In my experience you only get kicked if your damage is terrible, not for your Class spec. Trials are different in that optimization is taken more seriously which is why Stam Arcanist is mandatory.

Also the only groups changing gear for every single encounter are elite groups on PC so that’s not really true - most people have a few different gear/skill specs or minor skills changes to deal with and that goes for all of Console as well. With a resistances based system player behavior in terms of their swaps would not change so nothing to worry about there.

Your example of Direfrost Keep is not really what I’m proposing... I want for there to be resistances per enemy, not across an entire dungeon/trial.

To clarify, the goal is for different damage types (Class specs) to shine in different aspects of the dungeon/trial. Maybe a Flame DK is stronger against first boss, while an Arcanist is better for adds, while Shock Sorc is better against second boss, while Disease NB is best on last boss but having an Ice Magden is a huge help on a hard part of the last boss. There is reason to take all of these different classes. Maybe you stack more of one type of DPS than another to ease the difficulty of different mechanics. Not every trial will push for every Class spec, but every Class spec should have a large array of content they can shine in while they are “basic” DPS in other content. In comparison to right now, all classes are “basic” DPS except the current best spec which is Stam Arcanist.

Maybe the Resists wouldn’t even need to be extreme to have the desired effect? A Flame Atro’s resistance to fire could be 20% mitigation, while their Vulnerability to Frost could be 20%, that way the burden of the “weaker” classes against that type of enemy are not overbearing. And there is also a huge lore aspect to this, which is that it makes no sense for all damage types to affect an enemy like a Flame Atronach in the first place.

But anyway that’s just my idea! So many games use this system because it’s fun to play diverse character specs. I completed all Dungeon and Trial trifectas, many of them numerous times, and yet I’ve had to be Stam Arcanist ever since Necrom…. It sucks and made me want to quit. If my progs weren’t with actual friends of mine then there’s no chance I would have stuck around.

i wasnt saying it is that toxic, but there are times that it can be

and this kind of thing did already exist in the game at a point, i think fire atros used to have 10% resist to fire and -10% resist to frost dmg but was removed a long time ago, i believe it was in an effort to make things less complicated

the "toxic" examples that come up are mainly from sweaty endgame stuff, where a 10% increase or decrease in enemy resistances would make a larger impact on how the group wants to comp

if you had a HM trial boss that was weak to shock for example, the group leader might require every dps to use a shock destro for that fight (between scribing and destro it wouldnt really matter much on the class selection), if each boss had different resistances then i dont think it would change class comps much but it would change gear comps drastically

this would put more pressure on the group to carry even more sets (more sets = more mats/transmutes and inventory management for tight bag space) to try to optimize each boss based on resistances

I can see your point about swapping to Lightning staff and more gear being needed, but that’s only true if no other changes happen. In fact we would mainly still just use Arcanist DPS with Dual Daggers because balance is a mess right now.

ZOS needs to buff the many currently useless Class specs, with the sole intention of encouraging what should be their inherent themes and damage types (think Disease NB, Flame Templar, or Shock Sorc).
Weapons should also grant more power to abilities that make sense, such as Melee Weapons buffing melee attacks, Lightning Staff buffing Shock Damage done, etc. Also might help to differentiate Magicka vs Stamina a bit within Classes based on your damage type emphasis, which is sorely needed ever since Hybridization purely made one spec best on every class. This isn’t the case right now, which is why a weapon change from Bow to Lightning Staff leads to such little difference like you mentioned.

No rebalance will happen though, I’m saying all of this for nothing. We’ll all just keep on using our Stam Arcanist DW DPS to clear everything just like we have for well over a year.

Necrotech_Master

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

You’re talking about gameplay from practically a decade ago. The game is different in every aspect.

If DKs did 30% more damage to enemies in direfrost keep, you can still bring a group of Stam Arcanists and shred everything the same way you do now.

the point they are trying to make is it wouldnt change "toxic behavior"

instead of getting kicked for running a non meta spec (say warden dps), back then people were getting kicked for running non-optimal dmg (bow instead of fire staff)

would it make things more interesting? maybe, but it wouldnt change requirements for difficult content, most optimized groups sometimes have different gear setups for each fight in a trial now, changing enemy resists wouldnt do much except change gear/build requirements

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

most people dont run netchs touch because its just a bad set lol, nobody would be using it even if an enemy had weakness to shock dmg

morag tong occasionally has some niche uses in pvp, since it helps boost dmg of lethal arrow and related poison dmg, but in most cases its generally more optimal to run something like swamp raider right now especially if your pairing it with scavenging demise

I think you might be too pessimistic here. Imo the playerbase is not as toxic as you’re thinking. When is the last time someone was kicked from a dungeon for not being a Stam Arcanist? In my experience you only get kicked if your damage is terrible, not for your Class spec. Trials are different in that optimization is taken more seriously which is why Stam Arcanist is mandatory.

Also the only groups changing gear for every single encounter are elite groups on PC so that’s not really true - most people have a few different gear/skill specs or minor skills changes to deal with and that goes for all of Console as well. With a resistances based system player behavior in terms of their swaps would not change so nothing to worry about there.

Your example of Direfrost Keep is not really what I’m proposing... I want for there to be resistances per enemy, not across an entire dungeon/trial.

To clarify, the goal is for different damage types (Class specs) to shine in different aspects of the dungeon/trial. Maybe a Flame DK is stronger against first boss, while an Arcanist is better for adds, while Shock Sorc is better against second boss, while Disease NB is best on last boss but having an Ice Magden is a huge help on a hard part of the last boss. There is reason to take all of these different classes. Maybe you stack more of one type of DPS than another to ease the difficulty of different mechanics. Not every trial will push for every Class spec, but every Class spec should have a large array of content they can shine in while they are “basic” DPS in other content. In comparison to right now, all classes are “basic” DPS except the current best spec which is Stam Arcanist.

Maybe the Resists wouldn’t even need to be extreme to have the desired effect? A Flame Atro’s resistance to fire could be 20% mitigation, while their Vulnerability to Frost could be 20%, that way the burden of the “weaker” classes against that type of enemy are not overbearing. And there is also a huge lore aspect to this, which is that it makes no sense for all damage types to affect an enemy like a Flame Atronach in the first place.

But anyway that’s just my idea! So many games use this system because it’s fun to play diverse character specs. I completed all Dungeon and Trial trifectas, many of them numerous times, and yet I’ve had to be Stam Arcanist ever since Necrom…. It sucks and made me want to quit. If my progs weren’t with actual friends of mine then there’s no chance I would have stuck around.

i wasnt saying it is that toxic, but there are times that it can be

and this kind of thing did already exist in the game at a point, i think fire atros used to have 10% resist to fire and -10% resist to frost dmg but was removed a long time ago, i believe it was in an effort to make things less complicated

the "toxic" examples that come up are mainly from sweaty endgame stuff, where a 10% increase or decrease in enemy resistances would make a larger impact on how the group wants to comp

if you had a HM trial boss that was weak to shock for example, the group leader might require every dps to use a shock destro for that fight (between scribing and destro it wouldnt really matter much on the class selection), if each boss had different resistances then i dont think it would change class comps much but it would change gear comps drastically

this would put more pressure on the group to carry even more sets (more sets = more mats/transmutes and inventory management for tight bag space) to try to optimize each boss based on resistances

I can see your point about swapping to Lightning staff and more gear being needed, but that’s only true if no other changes happen. In fact we would mainly still just use Arcanist DPS with Dual Daggers because balance is a mess right now.

ZOS needs to buff the many currently useless Class specs, with the sole intention of encouraging what should be their inherent themes and damage types (think Disease NB, Flame Templar, or Shock Sorc).
Weapons should also grant more power to abilities that make sense, such as Melee Weapons buffing melee attacks, Lightning Staff buffing Shock Damage done, etc. Also might help to differentiate Magicka vs Stamina a bit within Classes based on your damage type emphasis, which is sorely needed ever since Hybridization purely made one spec best on every class. This isn’t the case right now, which is why a weapon change from Bow to Lightning Staff leads to such little difference like you mentioned.

No rebalance will happen though, I’m saying all of this for nothing. We’ll all just keep on using our Stam Arcanist DW DPS to clear everything just like we have for well over a year.

that kind of idea is basically "undo hybridization" which at this stage of the game i think is unlikely to happen unless they wanted to massively shift the meta again

wardens kind of had a taste of that gameplay when they had a passive that buffed higher if they were using an ice staff, and then you had all the stam wardens feeling shafted from that

if the passive was built into the weapon line instead of the class it might have made a bit more sense, but i dont really see the devs going that direction right now

Stafford197

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Something like this was already a thing in the past. Long time ago, enemies used to have different resistances to different dmg types and of course - weaknesses. But this resulted in a very restrictive gameplay and toxic behaviour. For instance, in Direfrost Keep, most enemies used to be weak to fire damage, so if a DPS with fire stick did not showed up, but instead they had bow or dual wield - they got kicked from the group at the very start. It is just an example, but you get the idea.

You’re talking about gameplay from practically a decade ago. The game is different in every aspect.

If DKs did 30% more damage to enemies in direfrost keep, you can still bring a group of Stam Arcanists and shred everything the same way you do now.

the point they are trying to make is it wouldnt change "toxic behavior"

instead of getting kicked for running a non meta spec (say warden dps), back then people were getting kicked for running non-optimal dmg (bow instead of fire staff)

would it make things more interesting? maybe, but it wouldnt change requirements for difficult content, most optimized groups sometimes have different gear setups for each fight in a trial now, changing enemy resists wouldnt do much except change gear/build requirements

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

• All enemies have equal Resistances, causing all damage types to functionally be cosmetic. They are only relevant in so far as they correspond to you gaining the most from your Passives to reach high DPS, but not anything to do with combat itself. Why?

This is one of the reasons why I proposed having bosses add weaknesses to specific damage types. We have sets like The Morag Tong and Netch's Touch, but these sets are rarely used. If the BOSS of a specific trial has specific weaknesses and mechanics, we will see more combinations of sets and skills. Ice Warden DD, Disease NB and other rare combinations are also easier to join various HM teams.

most people dont run netchs touch because its just a bad set lol, nobody would be using it even if an enemy had weakness to shock dmg

morag tong occasionally has some niche uses in pvp, since it helps boost dmg of lethal arrow and related poison dmg, but in most cases its generally more optimal to run something like swamp raider right now especially if your pairing it with scavenging demise

I think you might be too pessimistic here. Imo the playerbase is not as toxic as you’re thinking. When is the last time someone was kicked from a dungeon for not being a Stam Arcanist? In my experience you only get kicked if your damage is terrible, not for your Class spec. Trials are different in that optimization is taken more seriously which is why Stam Arcanist is mandatory.

Also the only groups changing gear for every single encounter are elite groups on PC so that’s not really true - most people have a few different gear/skill specs or minor skills changes to deal with and that goes for all of Console as well. With a resistances based system player behavior in terms of their swaps would not change so nothing to worry about there.

Your example of Direfrost Keep is not really what I’m proposing... I want for there to be resistances per enemy, not across an entire dungeon/trial.

To clarify, the goal is for different damage types (Class specs) to shine in different aspects of the dungeon/trial. Maybe a Flame DK is stronger against first boss, while an Arcanist is better for adds, while Shock Sorc is better against second boss, while Disease NB is best on last boss but having an Ice Magden is a huge help on a hard part of the last boss. There is reason to take all of these different classes. Maybe you stack more of one type of DPS than another to ease the difficulty of different mechanics. Not every trial will push for every Class spec, but every Class spec should have a large array of content they can shine in while they are “basic” DPS in other content. In comparison to right now, all classes are “basic” DPS except the current best spec which is Stam Arcanist.

Maybe the Resists wouldn’t even need to be extreme to have the desired effect? A Flame Atro’s resistance to fire could be 20% mitigation, while their Vulnerability to Frost could be 20%, that way the burden of the “weaker” classes against that type of enemy are not overbearing. And there is also a huge lore aspect to this, which is that it makes no sense for all damage types to affect an enemy like a Flame Atronach in the first place.

But anyway that’s just my idea! So many games use this system because it’s fun to play diverse character specs. I completed all Dungeon and Trial trifectas, many of them numerous times, and yet I’ve had to be Stam Arcanist ever since Necrom…. It sucks and made me want to quit. If my progs weren’t with actual friends of mine then there’s no chance I would have stuck around.

i wasnt saying it is that toxic, but there are times that it can be

and this kind of thing did already exist in the game at a point, i think fire atros used to have 10% resist to fire and -10% resist to frost dmg but was removed a long time ago, i believe it was in an effort to make things less complicated

the "toxic" examples that come up are mainly from sweaty endgame stuff, where a 10% increase or decrease in enemy resistances would make a larger impact on how the group wants to comp

if you had a HM trial boss that was weak to shock for example, the group leader might require every dps to use a shock destro for that fight (between scribing and destro it wouldnt really matter much on the class selection), if each boss had different resistances then i dont think it would change class comps much but it would change gear comps drastically

this would put more pressure on the group to carry even more sets (more sets = more mats/transmutes and inventory management for tight bag space) to try to optimize each boss based on resistances

I can see your point about swapping to Lightning staff and more gear being needed, but that’s only true if no other changes happen. In fact we would mainly still just use Arcanist DPS with Dual Daggers because balance is a mess right now.

ZOS needs to buff the many currently useless Class specs, with the sole intention of encouraging what should be their inherent themes and damage types (think Disease NB, Flame Templar, or Shock Sorc).
Weapons should also grant more power to abilities that make sense, such as Melee Weapons buffing melee attacks, Lightning Staff buffing Shock Damage done, etc. Also might help to differentiate Magicka vs Stamina a bit within Classes based on your damage type emphasis, which is sorely needed ever since Hybridization purely made one spec best on every class. This isn’t the case right now, which is why a weapon change from Bow to Lightning Staff leads to such little difference like you mentioned.

No rebalance will happen though, I’m saying all of this for nothing. We’ll all just keep on using our Stam Arcanist DW DPS to clear everything just like we have for well over a year.

that kind of idea is basically "undo hybridization" which at this stage of the game i think is unlikely to happen unless they wanted to massively shift the meta again

wardens kind of had a taste of that gameplay when they had a passive that buffed higher if they were using an ice staff, and then you had all the stam wardens feeling shafted from that

if the passive was built into the weapon line instead of the class it might have made a bit more sense, but i dont really see the devs going that direction right now

It’s not really undoing hybridization though, but rather improving it. There is still tons of hybridization: damage skills with dual costs, buff skills which can cost either resource, etc. The idea naturally just adds a small form of differentiation so one build doesn’t always trump everything else. If hybridization in its current state is so good, why is PvE Stamina Arc spec superior on the Arc class? Where are the Magicka Arcs? I’ve literally never seen one because they are objectively so much worse in all scenarios. Sounds like a design failure to me.

Nothing I say will change the direction ZOS takes but it’s fun to discuss ideas we would be glad to see. Plenty of users have great ideas. There’s a eso content creator by the name of Skinnycheeks who made an awesome video recently regarding a plethora of ideas he had, but mainly about item set reworks which sounds WAY more fun and interesting than the current stuff we have. That vid has spread like a wildfire in my discords and everyone seems to agree. Nothing will change though. They won’t even ask the community what we would like to see in the future.

Nerouyn

Stafford197 wrote: »

If hybridization in its current state is so good, why is PvE Stamina Arc spec superior on the Arc class? Where are the Magicka Arcs? I’ve literally never seen one because they are objectively so much worse in all scenarios. Sounds like a design failure to me.

I'm a mag arc, but not really playing at the moment. On the fence about returning.

And don't enjoy ESO's group PvE content so you'd not likely see me in that outside of events which require it.

Apart from generally liking the class, I specifically like how instead of mag and stam morphs, mostly abilities scale off the highest of either. I hope to see that flow into other classes.

But I'll always be mag regardless of whatever the current meta is.

As a fan of the single player games, spells use magicka.

It is known Khaleesi.

TaSheen

Nerouyn wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

If hybridization in its current state is so good, why is PvE Stamina Arc spec superior on the Arc class? Where are the Magicka Arcs? I’ve literally never seen one because they are objectively so much worse in all scenarios. Sounds like a design failure to me.

I'm a mag arc, but not really playing at the moment. On the fence about returning.

And don't enjoy ESO's group PvE content so you'd not likely see me in that outside of events which require it.

Apart from generally liking the class, I specifically like how instead of mag and stam morphs, mostly abilities scale off the highest of either. I hope to see that flow into other classes.

But I'll always be mag regardless of whatever the current meta is.

As a fan of the single player games, spells use magicka.

It is known Khaleesi.

That might be why, preferring stam as I do, I use a LOT more weapon skills than class skills. I only play the mag characters I have occasionally just for something a bit different. I've never really enjoyed mag in TES from the beginning, with Arena.

Nerouyn

TaSheen wrote: »

That might be why, preferring stam as I do, I use a LOT more weapon skills than class skills. I only play the mag characters I have occasionally just for something a bit different. I've never really enjoyed mag in TES from the beginning, with Arena.

Weapon junkies like yourself are lucky.

It's impossible for me to play ESO as I do the single player games because the vast majority of spells belong to other classes.

For me, ESO is hugely inferior to the single player games in most respects, except maybe housing. But it's still better (for my tastes) than other MMO that I'm aware of.

TaSheen

Well, I absolve myself of "weapon junkie" - because I actually don't like combat, and do as little of it as possible. In the rest of the TES games (well.... not really "all of them" - because Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind are just too hard to play on today's machines, even with DosBox....) so by "rest" I mean at this point Oblivion and Skyrim - both of which I play alongside ESO - I either played a rogue type with daggers or spell and sword, or a stealth archer.

It's okay with me that it's not "classless" but yeah, it's not much like the single player games for sure!