I did not like the writing / story in Gold Road, but I know the problem is me. [Spoilers]

Ingel_Riday · June 24

TLDR: title summed it up. I’m going to ramble. Feel free to read the title and peace out. :-P
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Honestly, this expansion’s writing reminded me of my best friend, who quit around High Isle. He got real peeved, because he was expecting an expansion with spell-swords, crazy Breton wizards doing all sorts of things to cheat death, and the usual shtick you see Bretons getting up to in baseline Elder Scroll games. “Looks like they’re just going to be Renn Faire cosplayers in High Isle, prattling on about knightly orders and druids. This sucks! Does ZOS even understand why we like Bretons?”

What did I say? “Fair enough man, but what you’re describing was a story they weren’t interested in telling. They went their own way. It is what it is. You need to leave your expectations to the side a bit. Appreciate what you have.” He quit. I miss him in this game. A lot.

Well… here I am, almost in the same boat not two years later, feeling like a jerk. Realizing I was a jerk. I don’t like it, haha.

Is the writing in Gold Road bad? No, it’s not. Most of the time, anyway. The problem is my expectations. I know it. I feel it in my bones.

I love the Colovians like my friend loved the Bretons. They’re rough-and-tumble Imperials. Not as diplomatic as their Nibenay siblings, and willing to throw down! I expected an epic story with the Count of Skingrad rallying his battle-hardened soldiers to fend off Valenwood invaders… which Colovia could easily do, if Valenwood didn’t have a Daedric Prince not bound by the Coldharbour Compact. Against a literal god romper-stomping across West Weald, there’s only so much you can do. A tragic, doomed resistance… or is it? That’s where the player comes in. Ooo. Awesome.

Instead, the Colovians are incompetent idiots. Their leader is an ineffectual, inoffensive, forgettable milksop whose only quest involves rescuing his pet cub BurntBiscuits. Theres’ no sign of Colovian troops trying to hold the line at Wildburn, and they are shown to be utterly worthless at two delve forts. Outside of Feldagard Keep, their resistance to the Bosmer is NON-EXISTENT. Just… eh.

The Colovians don’t try to use diplomacy to force the Aldmeri to step in and bring Dawnwood to task (stop your boys or our neutrality ends and we join the Covenant). They don’t use diplomacy to bring in Covenant help (if we fall to Valenwood, the Aldmeri will be able to hit your Craglorn supply lines). They don’t use diplomacy to pull in Southern Hammerfell help (hey Crown leaders, if we fall… war will come to your southern doorstep and the Aldmeri might attack you next to open a front with your Forebear cousins).

The only diplomacy the Colovians engage in? Giving up 1/3rd of their kingdom to wood elves. Willingly and needlessly. What?!

I hate it. It’s not what Colovians would do. Where is their warrior edge? Where is their Imperial acumen? Why surrender so much to a bested foe, bereft of its god and stripped of its main army? The Bosmer don’t fare any better, either. They keep insisting that the region they claimed was barely inhabited and was free real estate… but the first quest in Dawnwood literally involves rescuing people from the ruined city of Ostumir, which was CLEARLY HEAVILY POPULATED AND DEVELOPED. Dawnwood is full of ruined homes, destroyed manors, over-run ranches, and Colovian corpses. How dense and full of denial are these elves? The Bosmer have always been goobers, but they’ve never been willfully ignorant, oblivious goobers lacking a grasp of reality.

And in the end, when the Bosmer realize their forest was a colonizer’s land-grab, do they agree to return the pilfered lands to the surviving owners? To do the right thing and back off? No, they “promise to be good neighbors going forward.” “We can’t give back what Nantharion has taken.” Yes, you could. You could leave. You totally could. You’re choosing not to.

And the Colovians BUY IT. It’d be like if my neighbor’s husband stole half my backyard, my garage, and ate my dog before I finally bested him. “I can’t give back what my husband took from you,” his wife says as she chomps down on a piece of puppy-jerky. “Mainly because I don’t want to. But I will take good care of your garage and western backyard, because they’re mine now, and be the bestest neighbor ever. You’re welcome! I’m exceedingly generous, aren’t I?”

It’s dumb, and it doesn’t even amount to anything. Dawnwood is not even a memory by the 3rd Era. With neither Ithelia’s power nor The Recollection to maintain the new wood, it recedes against the power of Talos’ CHIM / the Colovian war machine and disappears completely. So the Colovians are made to look weak, incompetent, and pathetic for nothing. The Bosmer are made to look foolish, covetous, and oblivious to reality for nothing. It’s all pointless. It’s all meaningless. Overtly so.

And I picture my friend, laughing. “Well Ingel, what you would have wanted wasn’t the story these developers were interested in telling. It is what it is. Problem is you and your expectations. Set those aside and judge this on its own merits. Appreciate what you have, har har har!”

Oi. I hate eating crow. :-/ He’d be right, too. In isolation, this story isn’t bad. If I ignore all the Colovian lore I’ve gotten to read over the years, basic property law, and so on… works fine. I’m just hung up on my own mind. My own expectations.

Anyways… I came back from a break to see this expansion (your 10 year anniversary RNG dolmen / geyser grind broke my Ubisoft-honed “gotta collect them all” spirit, left me partially embittered, and I moved on to other things and hobbies), and I don’t intend to leave again. Not fully. I am going to considerably scale things back again, though. I’m picturing Nibenay agreeing to cede 1/3rd of its lands to noble-savage goblins, or spending a whole Dres expansion running an underground railroad instead of getting to be delectably bad, and it takes the wind out of my sails. I can’t muster enthusiasm for it. I think I’m not the audience for this anymore, at least right now. I need to apologize to my friend.

Oh, while I’m at it… the Fyrelight Cave quest was torture for me. Not just because it was predictable. No… dowries weren’t pay-to-bypass, convenience of life micro-transactions to skip courtship. People had to pay them, and in some countries still pay them, to show their commitment to the marriage and their financial means. If you couldn’t pony up the money, you clearly weren’t of sufficient fiscal /societal status to join with the other family. “Next time, tell him no dowry. Do it right. Actual courtship” was one of the dumbest things I have ever read in this game. It showed no understanding of the very concept of dowry. Eh. "It is what it is. Problem is you and your expectations. Set those aside and judge this on its own merits." I hate myself right now.

Edit addition: fixed some spacing. I have no one to vent this to, so I vented it here. If you read it, thanks. If not, I can't blame you. :-P This is the first time I have genuinely not felt like part of the modern audience. Maybe I'm just too old to get it. *shrug*

FlipFlopFrog · June 24

I haven't bought the new expansion yet because I've kinda come to expect everything you've just discussed. The amount of enjoyment I'll get from the main quest is so fleeting It's really not worth the full price tag (and hasn't been worth it since around Summerset.)

colossalvoids · June 24

Yeah, I was desperately trying to take ESO's zones / culture portrayal as just their take on it (not taking it too serious), whilst having vastly different outlook myself - from sp games, obviously. But it's way harder nowadays and I'm always staying with some feel of shattered expectations and zones being completely identical. Everyone is the same, the only characteristics identity for citizens is idiocy which is not what I'd prefer lol.

Parasaurolophus · June 25

Let me ask you, does everything in 10 years of gaming live up to your expectations?

Pelanora · June 25

I think your post was awesome.

I love your idea of a story. I love the idea of the obvious move blocked by the random factor of a dangerous god.

I don't know the lore at all but I disliked the gold road zone story so much I'm not even finishing it. I was bored senseless in necrom but I did it and this was worse.

I'm not here to just click when prompted. I'm here cos I want to think and make choices, in this world. I want agency. I used to have it, in the other zone stories. But not any more.

If I wanted mindless clicking I'd still be farming in Farmville.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · June 25

By Imperial Law many of these Bosmer are criminals, Not only are they invaders but many of them actively follow the Green Pact and the Green Pact supports being a cannibal, there is one small problem with that and that is they are not in Valenwood, they are in Cyrodiil where Cannabilism is illegal.

The Count should just have his soldiers set fire to the forest and smoke the criminals out.

OgrimTitan · June 25

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

The Colovians don’t try to use diplomacy to force the Aldmeri to step in and bring Dawnwood to task (stop your boys or our neutrality ends and we join the Covenant). They don’t use diplomacy to bring in Covenant help (if we fall to Valenwood, the Aldmeri will be able to hit your Craglorn supply lines). They don’t use diplomacy to pull in Southern Hammerfell help (hey Crown leaders, if we fall… war will come to your southern doorstep and the Aldmeri might attack you next to open a front with your Forebear cousins).

The only diplomacy the Colovians engage in? Giving up 1/3rd of their kingdom to wood elves. Willingly and needlessly. What?!

I hate it. It’s not what Colovians would do. Where is their warrior edge? Where is their Imperial acumen? Why surrender so much to a bested foe, bereft of its god and stripped of its main army? The Bosmer don’t fare any better, either. They keep insisting that the region they claimed was barely inhabited and was free real estate… but the first quest in Dawnwood literally involves rescuing people from the ruined city of Ostumir, which was CLEARLY HEAVILY POPULATED AND DEVELOPED. Dawnwood is full of ruined homes, destroyed manors, over-run ranches, and Colovian corpses. How dense and full of denial are these elves? The Bosmer have always been goobers, but they’ve never been willfully ignorant, oblivious goobers lacking a grasp of reality.

They do. If you were paying attention, you would have found a book saying exactly what you described in little less detail: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Note_to_King_Nantharion
TESO, TES II: Daggerfall or TES 3: Morrowind and other installments were always relying on passive storytelling as well as on active one. That includes books, notes, visual clues, et cetera.

The "warrior's edge" is also here, there is a scout report intended to prepare an army for a possible engagement, as well as a citizen movement against the Dawnwood. There is no open conflict yet, because the incedent is unprecedented. Imperials would've been a parody on themselves if it was: "Magical forest on our country's territory along the bosmer, those tree-sorcerers? Burn it all." It's not Warhammer 40 000.
People think and consider, just like it would've been in reality. Mirrormoor merging going at the same time and making a bit of distraction itself I won't even mention.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Vashabar_Threat
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Save_Skingrad!

Dawnwood is not even a memory by the 3rd Era.

This logic is faulty. It's not smart. If you don't see something in the game, it doesn't mean it's not present. Or you consider the books you see in the games to be all the books that are present in the world? I can write up the list of a 100 things or even institutions that should be in the world, but they are not, because we play in the game version of it, with 1 000 000 dungeons and 50 people in total.

In general, I see a lot of faulty logic, lack of attention to the details and a pessimistic perception.

Same goes with High Isle. The design and feel, the visuals and the setting were pitch perfect. It was the first time since 1996 the bretons were the sole focus, too. If your friend were a breton enjoyer, he would have enjoyed at least that, and "that" are no small things. There can be a discussion about the druids, but then again, solely as an idea and a trope they were realised great, different from typical fantasy druids. Their role in the plot of the chapter and the chapter itself are different topics which we won't talk here.

Elvenheart · June 25

I too loved your post and all the thought you put into how the story could have been. I have never read any lore about the Colovians, which I guess for me was a good thing while playing through the quests, but your post gives me insight that I didn’t have before and now I can’t help but ask some of the same questions you did about the plot points, especially why aren’t the former owners of the land wanting their land back.

My problem with this chapter was what happened in the end to the new wonderful Daedric Prince.

Edited to add: And since you prefaced this thread with a spoiler alert, I can add the one interesting twist I thought was great - that Fargrave USED to be Mirrormoor!

Jaimeh · July 1

Elvenheart wrote: »

I too loved your post and all the thought you put into how the story could have been. I have never read any lore about the Colovians, which I guess for me was a good thing while playing through the quests, but your post gives me insight that I didn’t have before and now I can’t help but ask some of the same questions you did about the plot points, especially why aren’t the former owners of the land wanting their land back.

My problem with this chapter was what happened in the end to the new wonderful Daedric Prince.

Edited to add: And since you prefaced this thread with a spoiler alert, I can add the one interesting twist I thought was great - that Fargrave USED to be Mirrormoor!

I honestly thought they went with fargrave so they didn't have to design a new plane from scratch. Just added a bunch of crystals and voila.

JinKC98 · September 10

I'm surprised Count Calantius guy only has one quest associated to him. Thought he would be part of the main quest but nope. I got curious after finishing the main quest and strolled in his office to talk to him. He mentioned his pet but there is no quest marker on him. Where is his quest anyway? It's one of those quest out in the wilds not in the zone guide again, isn't it…

Syldras · September 10

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

they are in Cyrodiil where Cannabilism is illegal.

Is there any reliable lore source about cannibalism being illegal in Cyrodiil?

Also: Who would notice? It's not like they usually run around hunting people. While they don't eat plants, there's still enough animals to eat.

Ingel_Riday · October 2

Sorry to kind of necro this guy back up, but having done all the delves and public dungeons on my four alts as part of the current Fallen Leaves event… I remembered writing this post and wandered on back.

Having seen a bunch of it over and over and over again… I’m still of the same opinion that I was in June.

@OgrimTitan:
There is this old cliché saying: “show, don’t tell.” It’s not always realistic or applicable. Exposition has a place in every narrative. That having been said… all your examples of “they do [address the things you’re complaining about], if you were paying attention” are pieces of easily-missed expository paper. That’s a pretty mediocre way to convey key plot points. Or, rather, what arguably should have been key plot points.

Furthermore, they don’t really resolve or counter my complaints at all. One is a letter from a wood elf leader chastising Nantharion for insubordination and the other is an old scout report from a ruined tent. I actually did read both during my first playthrough and rolled my eyes.

“This is the extent of the political intrigue, eh? Colovia isn’t going to silver-tongue its way out of anything, is it? Way to treat a race renowned for its diplomatic skills.” “Guess the scout died before she could get this report out, which explains why Skingrad isn’t on lockdown, the citizens aren’t in a panic, no soldiers are manning the front at the wildburn that is literally within EYESIGHT OF THE CITY WALLS, and so on. Cool cool.”

So yeah… didn’t work for me. I expected a lot more things like Feldagard Keep and less “help me find my dear Burnt-Biscuits” or “whoops, we lost another fort. Too bad all our Colovian troops are off in some non-descript corner of Cyrodiil for reasons undisclosed. You’re our only hope, Obi Wan Vestige.”

Also, it wouldn’t have been Warhammer 40k parody for the Imperials to have been shown mounting a proper defense or counterattack. A third of their country has been conquered by a marauding pack of demons and wood-elves, with another 10% to 15% rendered a wasteland of blight. The wood-elves are killing every Imperial they can find, have established a new fortress-city (Hoperoot) that literally overlooks the regional capital, and overtly claim to be the rightful heirs of the Imperials’ former enslavers and torturers (the Ayleids, who worshipped inter-dimensional beings of horror and regularly engaged in human sacrifice and blood ***).

How is any of the above NOT OPEN CONFLICT?!?! If none of the above was enough to galvanize Colovia to action and panic, I don’t know what it would actually take to rouse them from their stupor. Why, in the face of such existential crises, is the majority of resistance coming from a random wood elf dude, a tentacle-cultist, and one token Imperial soldier who spends half her time trying to make sure you don’t think she’s a bigot? Why is Skingrad so calm, save one grumbling couple? Why does everyone complaining about the Recollection feel the need to remind me that they don’t hate wood elves or migrants? :-/

What is this writing?

As for my logic being faulty regarding Dawnwood and the 3rd Era, I politely disagree. Arguably, part of good world-building and storytelling in a prequel (which this is) involves tying up loose ends. For point of comparison, we see a very healthy Cropsford in Central Cyrodiil, but it’s just a few shacks in the 3rd era. What gives? The quests in that zone make it clear, via both showing and telling, that goblins are on all sides and the town is living on borrowed time. Eventually, the goblins will make their move and probably burn everything to the ground (they do).

Dawnwood doesn’t exist in the 3rd era. One would have expected this prequel version of West Weald to address that, even obliquely. Does it fade without Ithelia’s magic? Does Colovia play nice while recalling its legions (which writer’s convenience spread to the four corners of “anywhere but here”)? How does this expansion explain such a large place being literally non-existent in every way, shape, or form in the 3rd era?

It doesn’t. It couldn’t be bothered.

That’s not a fault in my logic. That’s a fault in the storytelling. A glaring, sloppy loose end.

As for my friend, High Isle was pitch perfect (disappointing main quest aside)… if you like Bretons as Renn Faire people with knightly orders and all those trappings. I’m okay with that. But, as I mentioned, my friend expected the Bretons to be truer to the hijinks in the mainline games. You know, the people of Solitude gossiping about negative Breton stereotypes… which you might scoff at until you realize that the major Breton character in the city is a vampire with a S&M dungeon who has served the royal family for centuries. Then you go, “oh… figures. My bad. You were right. I’ll move along.” :-P

Incidentally, that was present in one location. The coin-baron public dungeon. That was it. Otherwise, you were generic Renn Faire.

This expansion had a taste of what I expected… in one location. Feldagard Keep. That was it. Otherwise, it made me think 2nd Era Colovians were a band of incompetents obsessed with vineyards while the world burned down all around them. Looping through a lot of it four more times has only hardened my opinion on the matter.

I_killed_Vivec · October 2

I think it's a useful necro, because I didn't see it first time round

OP, you are right and simultaneously wrong!

"Problem is you and your expectations. Set those aside and judge this on its own merits. Appreciate what you have"

It's only natural to have expectations - after all ZoS are selling you a fantasy, and you hope (because you're spending cash) that it will be good.

But indeed, set aside what you might have thought you'd be getting, and judge what you did get... and unfortunately all your disappointments still hold!

Then consider how much you spent on a half-baked story that doesn't make much sense. Then remember that this is all the questing content you get this year. Then remind yourself that this is the tenth year "celebration" of the game.

And then tell me why the correct response at the very start wasn't "I don't have a problem with Ithelia, no worse than Mora. I wash my hands of the lot of them".

shadyjane62 · October 2

It's not you. I just deleted all I wrote figuring it would get me in trouble.

Suffice to say Gold Road is last chapter for me. Ever.

colossalvoids · October 2

As I've started the expansion recently I can sadly only agree there. I see the writing gone a lot more modern route rather than classic one so to say, it's a weird vibe of "I'm a good person, I'm really good and up to date with current worldwide issues" writing instead of actual exploration of culture and lore. Sure it's expectation issue but I'm feeling that modern elder scrolls probably made a leap that I'm not taking with them.

Galiferno · October 2

I was skeptical but excited when a Colovian expansion was announced. When it became more and more apparent that once again ZOS didn't want to do a true Imperial zone, I began losing interest. As I read spoilers, all my interest was gone.

At least we Colovia fans know that in a couple of centuries Akatosh will send a certain Dragonborn who will fight for the Colovian Estates and remove the Bosmer invaders.

Syldras · October 2

colossalvoids wrote: »

As I've started the expansion recently I can sadly only agree there. I see the writing gone a lot more modern route rather than classic one so to say, it's a weird vibe of "I'm a good person, I'm really good and up to date with current worldwide issues" writing instead of actual exploration of culture and lore. Sure it's expectation issue but I'm feeling that modern elder scrolls probably made a leap that I'm not taking with them.

I wouldn't neccessarily say it's trying to show a modern world view; to me it looks like they want to offend no one. That's why everything and everyone is agreeable somehow.

spartaxoxo · October 2

OgrimTitan wrote: »

They do. If you were paying attention, you would have found a book saying exactly what you described in little less detail: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Note_to_King_Nantharion
TESO, TES II: Daggerfall or TES 3: Morrowind and other installments were always relying on passive storytelling as well as on active one. That includes books, notes, visual clues, et cetera.

A big problem with the way the use lorebooks is they use it as way to get out of showing rather than telling. And since many people don't read them, they'll miss important details like these that add nuance to the writing and situation.

"Show, don't tell" is a good story writing idea they could apply more often.

I_killed_Vivec · October 2

Syldras wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

As I've started the expansion recently I can sadly only agree there. I see the writing gone a lot more modern route rather than classic one so to say, it's a weird vibe of "I'm a good person, I'm really good and up to date with current worldwide issues" writing instead of actual exploration of culture and lore. Sure it's expectation issue but I'm feeling that modern elder scrolls probably made a leap that I'm not taking with them.

I wouldn't neccessarily say it's trying to show a modern world view; to me it looks like they want to offend no one. That's why everything and everyone is agreeable somehow.

I read someone comment on it before I started Gold Road. Their point of view was that the similarity to current affairs was crass to say the least.

Clearly it would be a ban to mention what they are, suffice to say that a nation entering its neighbour and occupying land is reflected in two on-going wars. It would be naïve, to say the least, for ZoS to say that people shouldn't see any parallels in today's world.

Syldras · October 2

I don't think accepting the annexion of neighbouring territory as something that's "no big deal" is exactly the current modern mainstream view. Also I doubt ZOS wants to make a political statement of this kind, considering it would alienate players.

That's the reasons why I think ZOS might just be afraid to show conflict or themes that might make someone uncomfortable now and concentrated on weird cultists or demonic entities as enemies.

And I do indeed think that they might not have understood how that story can be read and just thought about some funny fantasy story about some new forest (also to get Bosmer into the story somehow), and of course, in the end everybody is friends and happy - not to offend anyone. It's fear of conflicts, not condoning the annexion.

Ingel_Riday · October 2

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I read someone comment on it before I started Gold Road. Their point of view was that the similarity to current affairs was crass to say the least.

Clearly it would be a ban to mention what they are, suffice to say that a nation entering its neighbour and occupying land is reflected in two on-going wars. It would be naïve, to say the least, for ZoS to say that people shouldn't see any parallels in today's world.

Yeah... I kind of tried to avoid that subject in my post, too. Crass is a polite understatement.

Kind of reminds me of 2018's Summerset, which made the benefits of open borders one of its key plot points. At the time, border walls were a big topic in one of ESO's markets. Game was very on-the-nose in its commentary.

I still laugh going through that expansion on alts, because I have no idea what it was trying to go for. In one breath, it'll have characters like Raz praise the new border policies and try to emphasize how great it is for the isle. In the next breath though, the game's quests and plotline indicate that Summerset only needs open borders because it is locked into a forever-war state and is sending too many supplies and people abroad to force its will on other peoples. Said open borders provide a lot of cheap labor to make up the "human capital" shortfall, but create a huge number of security problems. Not all the new immigrants are bad people, but open borders mean very little scrutiny. A bunch of Clavicus Vile, Nocturnal, and Vaermina cultists end up infiltrating society, resulting in huge waves of crime and violence. So much so that Summerset has to hire private military contractors to sort it out (i.e. the players).

I regularly catch myself tilting my head and thinking: "What are you trying to say here? That open borders are a bad idea? That Summerset should stop trying to police the world, focus inward on itself, allow controlled immigration through authorized ports of entry, curb extremism in its society, and make the isles great again? You do realize that all syncs up 100% with the views of the person you wrote this to criticize, right? Just... huh?"

Edit addition: Eh. Practically Shakespeare compared to the implications within Gold Road, which again... yeah. I tried not to touch those. I couldn't think of a single way to mention them that wouldn't be utterly inflammatory.

Syldras · October 2

I think your interpretation is much too complex for what we get presented (even if the stories back then were still less cliché and simple than the newer ones). First of all, borders to Summerset had to be opened by lore to make the area accessible for player characters. Of course they could have made some "You are following a special invitation to the Isles, a place that is normally restricted to visitors" story - but how believable would that have been if there's masses of player characters from all races running around there when you arrive? They had to explain that somehow. Also, some players might have complained about finding it boring if there's only Altmer npcs they encounter and they probably also wanted to cater to these people (again: being agreeable, wanting to cater to everyone's tastes). The latter is probably also true for Necrom, the Sacred City of the Dunmer religion, that normally would not be easily accessibly to everyone else - but you see how they put it into the game. I can't say I find it plausible lore- and narration-wise, but I can logically understand the marketing thoughts behind it. In general, I'd love to see a more "serious" worldbuilding, different societies with different social rules and traditions, different believes, and of course also aspects that are flawed by today's perspective (showing something in fiction doesn't mean praising it, after all). But I don't think a big game company today is willing to take such a risk, because some people would complain.

Ingel_Riday · October 2

Syldras wrote: »

I think your interpretation is much too complex for what we get presented (even if the stories back then were still less cliché and simple than the newer ones). First of all, borders to Summerset had to be opened by lore to make the area accessible for player characters. Of course they could have made some "You are following a special invitation to the Isles, a place that is normally restricted to visitors" story - but how believable would that have been if there's masses of player characters from all races running around there when you arrive? They had to explain that somehow. Also, some players might have complained about finding it boring if there's only Altmer npcs they encounter and they probably also wanted to cater to these people (again: being agreeable, wanting to cater to everyone's tastes). The latter is probably also true for Necrom, the Sacred City of the Dunmer religion, that normally would not be easily accessibly to everyone else - but you see how they put it into the game. I can't say I find it plausible lore- and narration-wise, but I can logically understand the marketing thoughts behind it. In general, I'd love to see a more "serious" worldbuilding, different societies with different social rules and traditions, different believes, and of course also aspects that are flawed by today's perspective (showing something in fiction doesn't mean praising it, after all). But I don't think a big game company today is willing to take such a risk, because some people would complain.

You raise fair points. There is a view in media nowadays that art needs to be made for everyone. Agree with everyone's tastes and represent all people as much as possible. Minimize conflict, so on.

I think your argument has merit. I'm struggling with how to phrase this next...

...I agree that the writers probably never intended to write something as complex as my interpretation regarding Summerset. I think it just kind of happened. They needed a reason for the open border, and they needed a reason why so many cultists popped up so quick, and they needed an excuse for the Altmer to hire player characters to do mercenary work. They also wanted to comment on current day topical events (the Queen opening the borders is a good thing. Progress). But it all added up into a contradictory mess, narratively. More self-scrutiny and devil's advocacy might have reined it in, but that didn't happen. So we got what we got. A jumble of mixed signals and contradictory messages.

I don't think the writers for Gold Road intended some of the ways this expansion could be interpreted, but oi vei. I went with the "neighbor" analogy for my original post, but yeah... I thought of other conflicts. A lot of other conflicts. The "defuse all conflict and have a big party at the end where everyone is happy" thing just really doesn't work here. It was almost comically obscene, and I chuckled picturing an equivalent "party" in real life.

On that note... this expansion shouldn't have ended with a party. Neither should have Necrom. Tonal whiplash.

Syldras · October 2

I have been saying it for a while in this forum: The stories increasingly lack seriousness and this is something that doesn't exactly contribute to a captivating atmosphere. The need for happy endings with everyone being friends and having a party is one of they reasons, I would say (although I think it's not even only the want for a happy ending, but also the fact that ZOS very much relies on the same formula for all narrations). Not that I dislike seeing some characters again after the quest, and in some chapters, it did made sense considering the story (like the ceremony at the end of Wrothgar), but sometimes, it feels unfitting and they should rather imagine something else if they want a final gathering as a conclusion. But even before that, they seem to shy away from too dire story turns, and if there's some slightly tense situation, it's solved very fast. Rarely, someone "good" dies, and if at all, it's some random people who were just introduced (I found it quite comically in High Isle). There are no big tragedies that might stir emotions. Everything feels "safe".

colossalvoids · October 2

Syldras wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

As I've started the expansion recently I can sadly only agree there. I see the writing gone a lot more modern route rather than classic one so to say, it's a weird vibe of "I'm a good person, I'm really good and up to date with current worldwide issues" writing instead of actual exploration of culture and lore. Sure it's expectation issue but I'm feeling that modern elder scrolls probably made a leap that I'm not taking with them.

I wouldn't neccessarily say it's trying to show a modern world view; to me it looks like they want to offend no one. That's why everything and everyone is agreeable somehow.

Though I'd tend to agree more with other's points more due to being in a 2h ride from actual warzone, so I'm heavily biased with what and how I see things there but I'd probably agree that being agreeable lies closer to reality rather than precise commentary on certain issues. It's still making writing quite stale.

Syldras · October 2

Well, in the end, we don't know their motivations. I just have the impression that, how to describe it... that ZOS doesn't really write deep stories, or stories that show some more complicated philosophy or complex social or political developments. At least I don't see that in ESO. Especially in the later years, I would describe many characters as cliché and many storylines as quite obvious and linear. Even when they said they want to do something political instead of the "demonic being destroys the world" story for High Isle - I mean, what did we get? It wasn't really about political happenings, it was another weird cliché mad cultist type of enemy. And what we saw what would have been bordering a political topic, the rulers of the alliances, turned into another positive "we have to work together and become friends" story - but then still having no real impact on Tamriel in the end.

I can understand how ignoring certain things in the stories (from ZOS's side, because they don't want to make it a topic) leads to strange "messages", of course.

colossalvoids · October 2

I agree with you @Syldras here a lot. Though it's somewhat hard to put in the right words at times. I might be delusional but base game and writing up to Murkmire wasn't as bad, surely there was enough naïve writing and overall silliness but it still felt more... Genuine? Maybe it's about people who write the material or about the need to write at least something but I'm returning year after year to see if anything changed for good and it's a bit sad seeing that, especially if that's not just a "me" thing and people actually see the same issues.

Syldras · October 2

colossalvoids wrote: »

I agree with you @Syldras here a lot. Though it's somewhat hard to put in the right words at times. I might be delusional but base game and writing up to Murkmire wasn't as bad, surely there was enough naïve writing and overall silliness but it still felt more... Genuine? Maybe it's about people who write the material or about the need to write at least something but I'm returning year after year to see if anything changed for good and it's a bit sad seeing that, especially if that's not just a "me" thing and people actually see the same issues.

I have exactly the same impression and I tend to wonder what the reasons are. The biggest question to me is whether they can't write differently anymore, or whether they write like this on purpose now. No ideas left? Or did something about the writers change, like some have left the team and now there's not enough people for the amount of content, so they have to concentrate on easier stories? Or do they actually write that way because they think that style appeals to people? Do they think that naive writing would be understood by more people, so more people would buy the chapters? I don't know.

ArchMikem · October 2

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

By Imperial Law many of these Bosmer are criminals, Not only are they invaders but many of them actively follow the Green Pact and the Green Pact supports being a cannibal, there is one small problem with that and that is they are not in Valenwood, they are in Cyrodiil where Cannabilism is illegal.

The Count should just have his soldiers set fire to the forest and smoke the criminals out.

I do find it a little humorous how the entire basis of the Bosmer claim is "If there's Forest, it's our land." The Recollection were the ones that started planting enchanted seeds on the Colovian side of the river, thus expanding the Valenwood, and when regular Bosmer saw this they simply went ooh! That's our land now time to move! And when the Colovians got understandably upset the Bosmer react like victims.

The Bosmer are Colonizers with a victim complex. They really should have been kicked back across the river.

Pelanora · October 3

There's a quest in reapers march of invading collovians into a bosmer village. The player blows up the village and defeats the collovians. Isn't this antagonism a long standing thing? I know nothing about lore but just did that quest the other day and thought 'oh is that the background to west weald'?

Estin · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

Well, in the end, we don't know their motivations. I just have the impression that, how to describe it... that ZOS doesn't really write deep stories, or stories that show some more complicated philosophy or complex social or political developments. At least I don't see that in ESO. Especially in the later years, I would describe many characters as cliché and many storylines as quite obvious and linear. Even when they said they want to do something political instead of the "demonic being destroys the world" story for High Isle - I mean, what did we get? It wasn't really about political happenings, it was another weird cliché mad cultist type of enemy. And what we saw what would have been bordering a political topic, the rulers of the alliances, turned into another positive "we have to work together and become friends" story - but then still having no real impact on Tamriel in the end.

I can understand how ignoring certain things in the stories (from ZOS's side, because they don't want to make it a topic) leads to strange "messages", of course.

If you've been to the ESO subreddit in the past month or so, you would've seen a pretty credible reason as to why the stories feel one dimensional. Can't discuss it here though.