Lack of Support (Tank, Healer) Players Will Affect the Game Long-Term, And This Needs To Be Fixed.

MarbleMew · August 2

There is a severe lack of tank and support class players in ESO, which makes queue times very, very long, and they will only grow longer as time goes on. The reason being, they are not fun to play. Period. Especially in solo/PvE environments.
In most MMORPGs I play, I main tank or healer. ESO is the only MMORPG in which being a tank or healer feels like I'm wading through mud to complete core content.

I propose some solutions:

1. Marginally or moderately increase the amount of damage support classes are capable of dealing. Players will not commit to using their support character if they can't complete solo PvE content on their off-time as efficiently as they would using their DPS character. The argument of switching to a different armoury build when you need more DPS out of your tank-focused character is not a solution IMO. It just highlights how un-enjoyable the role is.

2. Make upgrades, such as armoury slots and mount upgrades, account-wide. This will incentivise players to easily spec into situational roles without pressuring them to make these purchases per-character, which is a significant detractor when it comes to player retention. Also, the $36 armoury assistant should be a free UI element, not a companion. We're not rich.

3. Introduce a reward system for playing a variety of roles, especially in a situation where a group needs a specific role to fill.

I am NOT advocating for the nerfing of DPS roles.

This post is meant as a discussion, so please leave your thoughts.

alpha_synuclein · August 2

First of all, the fact that they are not in the queue doesn't mean that they are not around

But more on topic: I get the argument about the lack of power on tanks, but healers can do almost as good damage as mag DDs. You spec in max mag, you can use offensive skills and mundus, your sets will be somewhat magica based and if your worth your Combat prayer you will have a destro staff on your backbar anyway.

I think the bigger problem with healers is lack of training grounds. A lot of easier content is desinged in a way that makes healers non-essential to a point where even not very experienced players prefer to run with tank + 3 DDs.

Another thing is very poor knowledge of mechanics that leads to healers being blamed for the mistakes of others.

Overall point being: I think that in case of healers the reasons from potential shortages come more from group content shortcomings than lack of overland power.

valenwood_vegan · August 2

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

First of all, the fact that they are not in the queue doesn't mean that they are not around

This is an important point - many of these players ARE around and pretty easy to find in guilds, but are just not necessarily using the random queue.

I also agree that there are some issues with support roles - overland and the early and even mid-game doesn't really require them, and they are not all that fun to play in overland and easier content, and also no real training at all is provided for support roles early in the game - forcing players to suddenly throw themselves into difficult content while trying to learn the basics, and potentially facing blame from the rest of the group, which is likely expecting a good solid tank or healer by the time the content is difficult enough to require one.

Tinkerhorn · August 2

Used to play healer a lot when I first started ESO and would pug. Playing a healer role had always been my go to in most games. Bottom line is, it's just not fun to be a healer in most pugs.
Healing in pugs too often feels like herding headless chickens which blame you for not keeping up with all 3 them as they make sure to maximise their incoming damage and do they're absolute best to avoid being effectively healed.

In ESO more often than not an additional DD is better than a healer. I felt most useful when I was forced to take on the tank role whenever we had a fake tank join but that's not particularly enjoyable either. Playing healer often has you thinking that you should be playing the Tank or as a DD.

BasP · August 3

Regarding your first point: I am guessing this is mostly due to the fact that PvE and PvP aren't balanced separately. I don't speak from experience as I didn't play the game back then, but from what I've read One Hand and Shield skills used to do more damage in the past and SnB was commonly used offensively in PvP (while those players were also tanky due to the defensive bonuses of the skill line).

In Update 5.1.5 the below skills were nerfed however, for example, and there might have been similar nerfs in other patches as well.

Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.
Puncture: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.

Soarora · August 3

In my trial circles I could argue there's too MANY supports! We gotta rotate around between our preferred support(s) and being DPS. It really does come down to they don't queue which if you ask anyone who's a support and doesn't queue the answer is that PuG damage is the problem. We can't magically fix that, so really the answer is that you have to become the support. Or befriend one. Honestly though, I'd rather queue as a tank than as a healer. At least as a tank I can hold the boss and do mechanics correctly even if it takes noticeably longer and is noticeably more difficult.

BananaBender · August 3

Doing overland content as a tank is awful, which isn't really a problem if you have multiple characters and are able to switch to another character to do overland with, but it is a problem when it's their only/main character. The only option really is to spec your tank like a DD as much as possible, which is not what many people want and that pushes them away from the game. As a healer you at least have the option of using Thief mundus and slotting damage skills and you are pretty much a DD already, while still feeling like you are still a healer.

Tanks are also expected to know the mechanics, which gives them a lot of responsibility. If a DD makes a mistake it usually just results in them dealing less damage. If a tank makes a mistake it usually results in them dying or just simply killing the entire group. Your mistakes as a tank are much more highlighted overall, which doesn't appeal to many players.

I think there are a good amount of healers in the game though, you just don't see them in the finder, because they don't have to use it. This applies to tanks as well. If you are on a tank or a healer you can easily get a group together from your guilds without having to roll a dice with the DDs.

BXR_Lonestar · August 5

First of all, the fact that they are not in the queue doesn't mean that they are not around

This. Usually real legit heals and tanks are queing with a pre-made group to get content done.

Nothing sucks more than being a character that is completely unable to (or far less capable) of doing damage than a dedicated DPS, and the DPS you get in random que is basically a fake DPS. Doubly so if you are qued for vet content and you get a DLC dungeon that is more difficult than your average base game dungeon. You could be the best tank/healer in the game, and if your DPS is poor or they don't know what they're doing (or worse, both!), it can make for a miserable experience in vet content. So most of us who play Healer/Tank just wait to que with people we know. Otherwise, I'll DPS on a character that is basically self-sufficient and hope for at least an adequate tank.

TybaltKaine · August 5

I play healer exclusively and even Pug from time to time. The issue isn't that support classes aren't around, or that they can't do damage (I hit like a mack truck when I want to), it's more that people don't actually need them for most normal content and that the folks who are starting out and want to specialise in support roles never have the chance to train for them in normal content.

The focus on the vast majority of Pugs is turn and burn, never engaging in mechanics at all. You see very quickly in Vet content who knows the mechs of a dungeon and who just cheesed through it on Normal and thought they could do the same in Vet.

The group finder kind of helps here, but Guilds and pre-made groups will reign supreme for Tank and Healer training and engagement so long as Pugs prioritise speed runs on very simple content.

Justosay · August 6

Pure tanks and healers are not needed for most of the content.
The part of the content where you do need tanks and healers does not have any serious bonuses.
The weapon station does not allow you to change your mundus stone, so it is mostly useless.

Soarora · August 6

Justosay wrote: »

Pure tanks and healers are not needed for most of the content.
The part of the content where you do need tanks and healers does not have any serious bonuses.
The weapon station does not allow you to change your mundus stone, so it is mostly useless.

Armory does let you change your mundus, it was added later.

Justosay · August 6

Soarora wrote: »

Armory does let you change your mundus, it was added later.

I've not been using it for a long, long time, so maybe. Do I also not need to carry all the gear from each build in my inventory?

Soarora · August 7

Justosay wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Armory does let you change your mundus, it was added later.

I've not been using it for a long, long time, so maybe. Do I also not need to carry all the gear from each build in my inventory?

You still have to carry your gear around, they just added the mundus later due to some logistical issues.

MarbleMew · August 7

Justosay wrote: »

Pure tanks and healers are not needed for most of the content.

In my belief, tanks should be at least viable in most content, such as solo questing and overland, and they should be uniquely rewarded for being used in this type of content. As DPS can dispatch mobs and bosses quickly, so too should these support roles provide a unique sense of enjoyment.

At the moment, as a tank, you grab the enemy's attention (One at a time, since ZOS has taken a firm stance against AOE taunts) and deal minimal amounts of damage.

This is not fun, and relegates tanks to be used in content where it is absolutely necessary to taunt. And that tends to be large group content such as trials, where the objective is to obtain better gear. From my understanding, players usually hope to gain gear that improves their DPS characters so they can go back to enjoying the fun of nuking enemy mobs with their damage dealer, further neglecting their tank characters, and further eroding the tank role as a whole.

My main concern isn't long queue times, it's the viability and enjoyment of content, primarily with solo tanks.

Your thoughts?

alpha_synuclein · August 7

Here's a thought

In most content healers and tanks are not needed.
In communities that routinely play the content where tanks and healers are needed, there is no shortage.

Maybe we should take a hint from that and instead turning tanks and healers into more DDs we can make them relevant in more places?

mrLuckyCat · August 7

Support role for pugs can be explained in 2 words : learned helplessness. You work around it or you reject it. Zos can't fix people, but they can give the Tools to make it bearable.

The major issue with playing support with pugs is, in my experience, that I am punished for my teamates lack of performance. There are a couple of mything that helps DDs and soliste in their endeavour (Oakensoul Ring, Ring of the Pale Order, Torc of the Last Ayleid King) but what about support ? Where is my ez support mythic ?

When I tank and things don't die, it put a huge strains on my ressources. If i have negligible or no support from the healer either, I am in greater danger. It was a painful learning curve. Now I can manage but it was not an easy path to take. - As tank, I need to receive big chunk of ressource when I do a heavy attack and a nice damage mitigation bonus to help me aleviate this unnecessary challenge.

When I heal, it's different : things don't die, tank desn't tank or make a legitimate mistake like missing a block (when block work), DD don't rez. I spam heals and I end up with the boss on my back because of healing aggro. - As a healer, I would like my heavy attack to heal everyone in my group regardless of position and distance. I also need to lose aggro.

Support needs their own mythics to trivialise role like other mythics do. It will at least remove the layer of complexity that a bad pug brings.

In an organised group, this doesn't happen and we usualy have too much support and everyone perform well. I am not, nor do I play, with meta chaser and min/maxers.

ganzaeso · August 7

The lack of tanks and healers in Dungeon Finder is the result of disrespect for the roles.

Tanks and Healers being seen as largely not needed for content and players who run ahead of the support roles leaving them to face everything in the group dungeon solo, have caused many players who play the roles to use Group Finder or Premade Groups exclusively.

As someone who does PUG tank sometimes, I absolutely dread the DLC dungeon where one player rushes to the first boss, engages it to trigger the join encounter port to boss feature, and then have to see complaints in group chat like "why did the tank not..." because I did not have time to target a taunt at the right enemies or do something else a tank needs to do to make a boss fight easier.

It is not that there is shortage of tanks and healers or that they are hard to level, but the fact that players who enjoy playing supports are tired of supporting the selfishness that Dungeon Finder is creating.

I highly suggest anyone who doubts this try converting one of their DPS characters into a tank or healer and que random normals for a few days to experience what it is like to play tank and healer.

BXR_Lonestar · August 7

ganzaeso wrote: »

It is not that there is shortage of tanks and healers or that they are hard to level, but the fact that players who enjoy playing supports are tired of supporting the selfishness that Dungeon Finder is creating.

All my tanks/healers with the exception of my main character started out as DPS. Leveling a character and making them into a tank/healer is not hard. I can tell you right now that as a Tank/Healer, your ability to complete content is entirely dependent on your teammates, and so when it comes to completing hard content, you don't want to take the chance that your teammates are not up to par in some way (don't know mechanics, can't communicate, don't have sufficient DPS, etc.) because if the DPS have issues, there is nothing you can do to get everyone over the top. It's not as if a healer can prevent OHK attacks from bosses, prevent the tank and DPS from getting overwhelmed when the DPS can't kill priority mobs fast enough, etc. So getting stuck in that situation is an exercise of frustration. This is why most legit tanks and healers will, in fact, just wait to que with a premade group.

And there is absolutely nothing that Zos can do to fix this. It's all about player preference, and Zos can do nothing to guarantee your random teammates' performance.

reiverx · August 7

I think dungeons should have originally been designed with 6 people in mind. A tank, a healer and 4 DDs.

alpha_synuclein · August 8

reiverx wrote: »

I think dungeons should have originally been designed with 6 people in mind. A tank, a healer and 4 DDs.

Why do you think this would work?
Well, it would for sure make things easier for DDs, but making things easier for DDs is how we got here on the first place...

If it is as people here are saying, and the main thing that deters support players from dungeon finder are DDs with insufficient damage and ability to play mechanics, adding two more of those might not change much.