What does it mean "100K damage as DD" generally?

AvalonRanger · July 28

What does it mean "100K damage as DD" generally?

And, how long does average DD need until taking down "Target Iron Trial Atronach"? (21,002,944 health)
I tested it by my most reliable DD character, and I spend 14min for it. Is it average? or not?

Soarora · July 28

100k DPS on the iron atronach dummy has become the norm for vet HMs except for the few people who ask for 110 or even 120k. A 110k parse took 3 minutes. The average DPS who's really trying to DPS probably has between 40-80k DPS while the average endgame DPS probably has 100k on average.

Dagoth_Rac · July 28

21,002,944 / 100,000 = 210 seconds

210 / 60 = 3.5 minutes

So, while you do not have to do 100k/sec damage for entire fight, it can fluctuate, you should finish Iron Atro in about 3.5 minutes.

And note that DPS in ESO is not really about gear. It is about rotation. A top player in purple crafted gear, with a tight rotation, can do 100k. An inexperienced DPS, with poor timing, the wrong skills, casting in the wrong order, sloppy light attack weaving, with DoTs/buffs falling off, or recasting DoTs/buffs too early, etc., will do 15k DPS even in golded out perfected trial gear.

If you want to be a high end vet DPS, you need to find a good rotation and practice it until you can do it flawlessly in your sleep. There is an addon that will enable a metronome that is in time with the global cooldown. That can be really helpful to learn the timing of a tight rotation.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 28

I'm not sure how much dummy slaying numbers are worth.

I guess it's suppose to be the best a player can hope to produce, but not everybody does the best against a dummy. It's just so boring! I have ADHD and really I can't sustain focus on a dummy for that long. There is nothing to hold my interest.

A boss fight is completely different. I have no trouble focusing and love the challenge of soloing a high-end boss. I will also point out that teamwork and paying attention to what's going on around the room is also important and never shows up on the dummy.

So yeah I'm not sure why people seem so obsessed with the dummy numbers...

Soarora · July 28

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I'm not sure how much dummy slaying numbers are worth.

I guess it's suppose to be the best a player can hope to produce, but not everybody does the best against a dummy. It's just so boring! I have ADHD and really I can't sustain focus on a dummy for that long. There is nothing to hold my interest.

A boss fight is completely different. I have no trouble focusing and love the challenge of soloing a high-end boss. I will also point out that teamwork and paying attention to what's going on around the room is also important and never shows up on the dummy.

So yeah I'm not sure why people seem so obsessed with the dummy numbers...

Have you tried listening to music? That's what I do. After a bit of warmup I get lost in the music and then ooh the parse is almost done. A standardized parse is just the best way to see how well someone knows how to parse and then some people will ask for logs to see how well you do in-content. Having the parse then is still necessary because your damage in-content can look different depending who is in the group and what the content is.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 28

Soarora wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I'm not sure how much dummy slaying numbers are worth.

I guess it's suppose to be the best a player can hope to produce, but not everybody does the best against a dummy. It's just so boring! I have ADHD and really I can't sustain focus on a dummy for that long. There is nothing to hold my interest.

A boss fight is completely different. I have no trouble focusing and love the challenge of soloing a high-end boss. I will also point out that teamwork and paying attention to what's going on around the room is also important and never shows up on the dummy.

So yeah I'm not sure why people seem so obsessed with the dummy numbers...

Have you tried listening to music? That's what I do. After a bit of warmup I get lost in the music and then ooh the parse is almost done. A standardized parse is just the best way to see how well someone knows how to parse and then some people will ask for logs to see how well you do in-content. Having the parse then is still necessary because your damage in-content can look different depending who is in the group and what the content is.

Well since I'm on the console there wouldn't be any logs. Music doesn't help my ADHD issues. Honestly, if I focus on the music whatever else I'm doing just drops off.

So for most groups, the dummy number is really that important? I guess I'm just a little surprised. Ok, I know being neurodivergent means things work differently for me, but yeah it does still surprise me. Although I can't prove it I'm completely sure my damage is much higher in an actual fight. In the zone is a phase that comes to mind. For me that's really the most fun. But thanks for telling me. I do need to know if I'm going to try more harder group content what the expectations are. I appreciate it. :-)

Soarora · July 28

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I'm not sure how much dummy slaying numbers are worth.

I guess it's suppose to be the best a player can hope to produce, but not everybody does the best against a dummy. It's just so boring! I have ADHD and really I can't sustain focus on a dummy for that long. There is nothing to hold my interest.

A boss fight is completely different. I have no trouble focusing and love the challenge of soloing a high-end boss. I will also point out that teamwork and paying attention to what's going on around the room is also important and never shows up on the dummy.

So yeah I'm not sure why people seem so obsessed with the dummy numbers...

Have you tried listening to music? That's what I do. After a bit of warmup I get lost in the music and then ooh the parse is almost done. A standardized parse is just the best way to see how well someone knows how to parse and then some people will ask for logs to see how well you do in-content. Having the parse then is still necessary because your damage in-content can look different depending who is in the group and what the content is.

Well since I'm on the console there wouldn't be any logs. Music doesn't help my ADHD issues. Honestly, if I focus on the music whatever else I'm doing just drops off.

So for most groups, the dummy number is really that important? I guess I'm just a little surprised. Ok, I know being neurodivergent means things work differently for me, but yeah it does still surprise me. Although I can't prove it I'm completely sure my damage is much higher in an actual fight. In the zone is a phase that comes to mind. For me that's really the most fun. But thanks for telling me. I do need to know if I'm going to try more harder group content what the expectations are. I appreciate it. :-)

No problem! Guess I should've checked your signature haha. I don't play console but my understanding is they ask for videos instead of logs.

fizl101 · July 28

Soarora wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I'm not sure how much dummy slaying numbers are worth.

I guess it's suppose to be the best a player can hope to produce, but not everybody does the best against a dummy. It's just so boring! I have ADHD and really I can't sustain focus on a dummy for that long. There is nothing to hold my interest.

A boss fight is completely different. I have no trouble focusing and love the challenge of soloing a high-end boss. I will also point out that teamwork and paying attention to what's going on around the room is also important and never shows up on the dummy.

So yeah I'm not sure why people seem so obsessed with the dummy numbers...

Have you tried listening to music? That's what I do. After a bit of warmup I get lost in the music and then ooh the parse is almost done. A standardized parse is just the best way to see how well someone knows how to parse and then some people will ask for logs to see how well you do in-content. Having the parse then is still necessary because your damage in-content can look different depending who is in the group and what the content is.

Well since I'm on the console there wouldn't be any logs. Music doesn't help my ADHD issues. Honestly, if I focus on the music whatever else I'm doing just drops off.

So for most groups, the dummy number is really that important? I guess I'm just a little surprised. Ok, I know being neurodivergent means things work differently for me, but yeah it does still surprise me. Although I can't prove it I'm completely sure my damage is much higher in an actual fight. In the zone is a phase that comes to mind. For me that's really the most fun. But thanks for telling me. I do need to know if I'm going to try more harder group content what the expectations are. I appreciate it. :-)

No problem! Guess I should've checked your signature haha. I don't play console but my understanding is they ask for videos instead of logs.

Yep, usually a video of the parse for proving dps, showing gear at the end

AvalonRanger · July 28

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I'm not sure how much dummy slaying numbers are worth.

I guess it's suppose to be the best a player can hope to produce, but not everybody does the best against a dummy. It's just so boring! I have ADHD and really I can't sustain focus on a dummy for that long. There is nothing to hold my interest.

A boss fight is completely different. I have no trouble focusing and love the challenge of soloing a high-end boss. I will also point out that teamwork and paying attention to what's going on around the room is also important and never shows up on the dummy.

So yeah I'm not sure why people seem so obsessed with the dummy numbers...

" teamwork and paying attention to what's going on around the room
is also important and never shows up on the dummy."

Yea, I thought same feeling

I'm tank main player, and I've met super canon DD several times.

But consider "survivability" of those players, They're quick dead guys mostly.
Sometimes too much glass build (pure DD style), or just careless combat style like
the target dummy testing (ignore simple mechanism or lack of team work).

Recently, those target dummy DD style will not work in the Vet DLC dungeon.
(I don't know Vet trial situation though...)

Do we really need 100K for the Vet contents?

AvalonRanger · July 28

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

21,002,944 / 100,000 = 210 seconds

210 / 60 = 3.5 minutes

So, while you do not have to do 100k/sec damage for entire fight, it can fluctuate, you should finish Iron Atro in about 3.5 minutes.

And note that DPS in ESO is not really about gear. It is about rotation. A top player in purple crafted gear, with a tight rotation, can do 100k. An inexperienced DPS, with poor timing, the wrong skills, casting in the wrong order, sloppy light attack weaving, with DoTs/buffs falling off, or recasting DoTs/buffs too early, etc., will do 15k DPS even in golded out perfected trial gear.

If you want to be a high end vet DPS, you need to find a good rotation and practice it until you can do it flawlessly in your sleep. There is an addon that will enable a metronome that is in time with the global cooldown. That can be really helpful to learn the timing of a tight rotation.

Thanks for replaying. Good tutorial information.

But is it really possible in the "real combat situation" even with decent tank or healer?
Some of DLC dungeon or trial boss has really notorious game mech, we can't do it
like the target dummy practice. If you're dead, then 100K skill become zero damage, right?

Ph1p · July 28

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Do we really need 100K for the Vet contents?

No, you don't need 100k trial dummy DPS to clear regular vet content. I regularly organize learning runs for vet trials and our official requirement is 35k, which basically only ensures that a DD doesn't just light attack or spam a single skill. Having said that, more DPS obviously helps tremendously. If the fight drags on, the group has to go through more rounds of mechanics and there are more chances for people to make mistakes.

AvalonRanger wrote: »

But is it really possible in the "real combat situation" even with decent tank or healer?
Some of DLC dungeon or trial boss has really notorious game mech, we can't do it
like the target dummy practice. If you're dead, then 100K skill become zero damage, right?

Generally, it will be very difficult to reach dummy numbers on a single enemy target in actual content. Real buff and debuff uptimes won't be as good as on the trial dummy, plus there are many mechanics and other distractions in real fights. Having said that, DDs in optimized groups absolutely do reach that. For example, the highest single-target DPS against Taleria in vDSR HM is currently 152k DPS per ESO Logs.

Some people dismiss the value of trial dummies due to the unrealistic combat situation. Indeed, many trial groups also look at actual combat logs to assess potential group members. Yet, if you had to choose between a 120k DPS and an 80k one, all other things being equal or unknown, who offers a higher chance of clearing content?

But the point is that good DDs need to deal damage, play mechanics, and survive at the same time. As Dagoth_Rac said, practicing a rotation on the dummy makes it easier to focus on the latter two without sacrificing damage.

Jaimeh · July 28

You don't need high damage (unless there is a specific dps check in a fight) but I think there is a correlation between DDs who know their rotation and class well, and can parse decently, and knowing mechanics/having environmental awareness. This is because DDs who parse well, know how to keep damage up throughout all phases in a fight and that includes knowing mechanics, positioning, and so on. So while damage is not everything and you can usually get away with low dps if mechanics are observed and you have enough mitigation to deal with a longer drawn fight, in practice it tends to get messy.

M1SHAAN · July 28

If 100k is the typical benchmark for endgame dps, does that requirement change for support dps like zenkosh dk or ec cro? I have an IgneousEngulfingStaggerEncratisZenKosh dk that I am practicing using but I can barely crack 75k dps with him

Dagoth_Rac · July 28

One thing to mention with dummy parses is that it kind of like practicing scales on the guitar or piano. On stage, making "real" music, you are not just gonna run through scales and exercises. But the goal is to learn the fretboard/keyboard so well, that you don't need to think about it. How the different notes and chords sound, the distance between them, how to go between them swiftly and comfortably, etc., will all become instinct. And that is kind of what dummy parsing, ideally, will do for DPS. If you get interrupted by a mechanic or other requirement, you will get back into your damage rotation quickly and easily. And if you are not thinking about what buttons to hit and when, you are less likely to miss audio and visual cues, or lose track of the overall fight.

Are there people who can't parse but shine in actual content? Yes. But it is fairly rare. Most people who can't parse are bad in content, too. And you are just not gonna have many high end groups that want to bother with, "My dummy parse is awful but I'm really good, trust me, bro." They have likely been burned by that enough times to just not want to go down that road.

If you really are one of those people who is bad at dummy parsing but really good in content, you'll probably want to join a more casual guild, get to know the people in it, and gain a reputation as someone who is good in trials/dungeons despite a mediocre dummy parse. Word of mouth and personal relationships will be a big boost if you can't provide cold, hard parsing data.

Ph1p · July 29

AvalonRanger wrote: »

What does it mean "100K damage as DD" generally?

And, how long does average DD need until taking down "Target Iron Trial Atronach"? (21,002,944 health)
I tested it by my most reliable DD character, and I spend 14min for it. Is it average? or not?

If it took you 14 minutes to kill the trial dummy, your DPS was around 25k, which in itself is actually relatively low. There are HA-only Oakensorcs that reach 75k by just holding down one button. I've seen people do parses with just one skill for fun and reach higher numbers.

However, you asked if it is average. It sounds like this is your first or one of your first parses ever and I think yes, this seems like an average result for a first dummy attempt. As others have pointed out, people achieve higher numbers because

they have a suitable rotation of skills
they are proficient with this rotation due to practice
they wear appropriate and upgraded gear
they optimize their setup for parsing, e.g., by building for single-target damage and using parse food

In my experience, DPS numbers can go up very quickly. So you shouldn't be discouraged by the initial results. Get some advice from more experienced players, have a look at a guide, and damage output will skyrocket. It also doesn't mean you're generally unsuitable for veteran content, especially if you actually know the mechanics and have good survivability, which are important factors particularly in PUGs.

alpha_synuclein · July 29

M1SHAAN wrote: »

If 100k is the typical benchmark for endgame dps, does that requirement change for support dps like zenkosh dk or ec cro? I have an IgneousEngulfingStaggerEncratisZenKosh dk that I am practicing using but I can barely crack 75k dps with him

It does not, but you are not supposed to be parsing on support setup. Usually in groups that require parses you are asked for damage in full parse setup, even if you want to join as support DD.

alpha_synuclein · July 29

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Are there people who can't parse but shine in actual content? Yes. But it is fairly rare. Most people who can't parse are bad in content, too. And you are just not gonna have many high end groups that want to bother with, "My dummy parse is awful but I'm really good, trust me, bro." They have likely been burned by that enough times to just not want to go down that road.

This. Common sense suggest that if you can't hit hard while facing a target that don't move or fight back, there is a very slim chance that you will do better against a target that does.

AvalonRanger · July 29

Honestly say.....I couldn't understand about "weaving" mech
even after check the Youtube tutorial.

Can anybody explain me about "weaving damage"?
(In a Nutshshell, it means...)

Soarora · July 29

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Honestly say.....I couldn't understand about "weaving" mech
even after check the Youtube tutorial.

Can anybody explain me about "weaving damage"?
(In a Nutshshell, it means...)

In one GCD (Global Cooldown) you can fit 1 light attack (or 1 bash) and 1 skill. So, you hit your light attack button and then cast a skill, which cancels the animation of your light attack. So, tldr; light attack, skill, light attack, skill... do it slowly at first to make sure you've got it right then go faster and faster until you're weaving ideally every skill (but it's very unlikely you'll get 100% of your weaves, most people don't).

Dagoth_Rac · July 29

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Honestly say.....I couldn't understand about "weaving" mech
even after check the Youtube tutorial.

Can anybody explain me about "weaving damage"?
(In a Nutshshell, it means...)

I am going to assume you use mouse/keyboard with standard configuration...

You can only cast 1 skill per second. So if you have a skill on the "1" button and hit it, then hit it again 0.5 seconds later, that second press will be ignored. You are still on cooldown. This applies across skills (thus why it is called "global" cooldown of 1 second). So if you press the 1 button for a skill and then the 2 button 0.5 seconds later, the second button press will also be ignored. You are still on cooldown.

So you want to cast a skill every 1 second. No more and no less. If you take longer, you are doing no damage at a time when you could be doing damage. In a 14 minute fight, if you cast a skill every 1 second, it will be 840 skills cast. If you cast a skill every 1.2 seconds, it will be 700 skills cast. That 0.2 second pause can seem insignificant, almost imperceptible in and of itself. But over the course of a long boss fight, it really adds up to a lot of damage missed. The 1 second timing is aspirational. You'll never do that perfectly. It can even be a detriment to try to be that perfect. If you average exactly 1 second but occasionally speed up and cast a skill 0.99 seconds later, you'll still be on cooldown. Better to be a fraction of a second late with your damage than get no damage at all.

You can cast a light attack every 0.7 seconds and this is a separate cooldown from the skill cooldown. I think it is 0.7s. It is less than 1 second and most people treat it as 1 second to sync up with the skill cooldown. You don't gain more damage by trying to follow the light attack cooldown. You just make the rotation awkward and clunkier and need to keep track of different pause lengths, etc. Don't bother.

A skill will take precedence over a light attack. So if you hit left mouse button, then the "1" button, the animation of the light attack will be "cancelled" and you will go straight to doing the skill.

Thus, the maximum damage sequence is a light attack, followed immediately by a skill, then a pause while you wait for cooldowns to end, then a light attack immediately followed by a skill.

This is a very distinctive rhythm that you need to learn and perfect. Like da-dum-[pause]-da-dum-[pause]-da-dum-[pause], etc. Getting to know how quickly to do the "da-dum" and how long to pause is a lot of practice. There are metronome addons that will click every second to help you get the feel for it. Or you can try to find a phrase that takes 1 second. Like start saying "AvalonRanger" and hitting a light attack on "Ran" and a skill on "ger", and keep doing that. You wouldn't do that or the metronome forever. Just until you get the timing and rhythm down to instinct.

So you are "weaving" light attacks in and around your skills. You can start much slower than a 1 second weave. Do 2 or 3 seconds at first and then slowly speed up as you get better at it. Like how if you were trying to learn "Eruption" by Van Halen, you would start slower at first, not jump straight into trying to match Eddie Van Halen's speed.

AvalonRanger · July 29

@Soarora
@Dagoth_Rac

Thanks for excellent tutorial for me.

allochthons · July 30

The dummy isn't realistic at all. The people asking for your numbers know that. But there really isn't a better way, in game, to determine if the person they want to let into their guild / progression group / whatever is actually at the skill level they claim.*
The dummy is a measurable metric. It's also it's own little mini-game. Did you research how to parse? Do you know about parse food? Do you know you need to stand behind the dummy if using the backstabber CP? Did you take all the heal skills off, since you don't need them? As in, are you willing to put the effort into being a good DD?

After they get to know you and play with you, they'll know what content you can do. But they need somewhere to start, and thus, parsing.

On console, you submit videos, as someone mentioned. The parse itself, and then you show your gear, and at least your blue CP. Sometimes your food and mundus. Uploading an unlisted video to youtube is pretty standard, but they can be shared via PSN/discord/other methods as well.

* Someone in one of my guild chats today was talking about some person on Reddit claiming to have soloed vCR. Not soloed the portals. Soloed the whole trial. Uh, who sent the shards down? Who shared the hug mechanic? People claim some wacky stuff.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 30

allochthons wrote: »

The dummy isn't realistic at all. The people asking for your numbers know that. But there really isn't a better way, in game, to determine if the person they want to let into their guild / progression group / whatever is actually at the skill level they claim.*
The dummy is a measurable metric. It's also it's own little mini-game. Did you research how to parse? Do you know about parse food? Do you know you need to stand behind the dummy if using the backstabber CP? Did you take all the heal skills off, since you don't need them? As in, are you willing to put the effort into being a good DD?

After they get to know you and play with you, they'll know what content you can do. But they need somewhere to start, and thus, parsing.

On console, you submit videos, as someone mentioned. The parse itself, and then you show your gear, and at least your blue CP. Sometimes your food and mundus. Uploading an unlisted video to youtube is pretty standard, but they can be shared via PSN/discord/other methods as well.

* Someone in one of my guild chats today was talking about some person on Reddit claiming to have soloed vCR. Not soloed the portals. Soloed the whole trial. Uh, who sent the shards down? Who shared the hug mechanic? People claim some wacky stuff.

This makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

AvalonRanger · July 30

After learning "weaving" mechanics. My damage work is slightly getting better.
25K-->26.5K

But I fully understand "weaving" tech now.