Calling all Frostden Build Players...

Soarora · March 3

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

. . . Gear wise, I use Order's Wrath and Frostbite, Oakensoul, and my main spammable is Frost Reach. Because I already have enough pen with armor and passives, I don't need Deep Fissure (unless it's against world boss or group dungeon). So my bar is: Frost Reach, Winter's Revenge, Unstable Wall of Elements, Subterranean Assault, Arctic Blast and Wild Guardian ultimate.

I took my generic magward and changed all her gear and most of your skill slotting to what you have. The results are impressive and I'm seeing a notable dps increase. Thanks!

Solo PvE here and run with a tank companion so I have to run a heal that takes care of both of us (+bear) so am slotting that instead of Arctic Blast. Lots of damage, crit, pen but wrestling a bit with sustain. Using vigor instead of a magic heal and working on the rotation to include enough heavy attacks to sustain. In short boss fights, the damage is awesome. In sustained fights it is still pretty darn good.

sustain is a problem we all have, natures gift is pretty badly designed when it comes to playing dps since we literally can't access it unless we use lotus blossom AND heal an ally with it, which is pretty useless in organised content. its one of those passives that needs to be redesigned to be more accessable.

I don’t get the sustain problem to be honest, I’ve heard it from several people but my sustain is perfectly fine, even with blast (though not having blast certainly helps, especially when parsing). I wouldn’t say no to more sustain though. I think it’s because I have netch, light armor, and stamshalks. Definitely have to keep netch up.

Netch and light armor are damage losses. You have to run a ton of medium and swap betty for a DoT. I've tried everything i can think of honestly.

Honestly the problem might go away if they made light armor worthwhile in pve for dps, but as is, it's a pretty crap armor type.

It's not that bad, really. Not gonna get 120k parse (probably) but 100k is still pretty substantial. It's also great for overland and dungeons where pen is a problem. I'd rather have good sustain and slightly less damage than more damage and suffer.

For high end trial purposes it's absolutely not enough to be picked. Overland and dungeons are not trials and have different gearing expectations. They're generally more forgiving.

High end trials (I assume you mean recent HMs) aren’t the same as other content, that is true, but that doesn’t make light armor bad in general. The game isn’t all trials. Besides, in this high end content the parse DPS are all going to be stamarcs anyways so the point is moot. Even then, I have used my warden in RG HM before (although, only Oax clear), so I can’t say I’ve ever experienced my warden not being enough to be picked.

ESO_Nightingale · March 3

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

. . . Gear wise, I use Order's Wrath and Frostbite, Oakensoul, and my main spammable is Frost Reach. Because I already have enough pen with armor and passives, I don't need Deep Fissure (unless it's against world boss or group dungeon). So my bar is: Frost Reach, Winter's Revenge, Unstable Wall of Elements, Subterranean Assault, Arctic Blast and Wild Guardian ultimate.

I took my generic magward and changed all her gear and most of your skill slotting to what you have. The results are impressive and I'm seeing a notable dps increase. Thanks!

Solo PvE here and run with a tank companion so I have to run a heal that takes care of both of us (+bear) so am slotting that instead of Arctic Blast. Lots of damage, crit, pen but wrestling a bit with sustain. Using vigor instead of a magic heal and working on the rotation to include enough heavy attacks to sustain. In short boss fights, the damage is awesome. In sustained fights it is still pretty darn good.

sustain is a problem we all have, natures gift is pretty badly designed when it comes to playing dps since we literally can't access it unless we use lotus blossom AND heal an ally with it, which is pretty useless in organised content. its one of those passives that needs to be redesigned to be more accessable.

I don’t get the sustain problem to be honest, I’ve heard it from several people but my sustain is perfectly fine, even with blast (though not having blast certainly helps, especially when parsing). I wouldn’t say no to more sustain though. I think it’s because I have netch, light armor, and stamshalks. Definitely have to keep netch up.

Netch and light armor are damage losses. You have to run a ton of medium and swap betty for a DoT. I've tried everything i can think of honestly.

Honestly the problem might go away if they made light armor worthwhile in pve for dps, but as is, it's a pretty crap armor type.

It's not that bad, really. Not gonna get 120k parse (probably) but 100k is still pretty substantial. It's also great for overland and dungeons where pen is a problem. I'd rather have good sustain and slightly less damage than more damage and suffer.

For high end trial purposes it's absolutely not enough to be picked. Overland and dungeons are not trials and have different gearing expectations. They're generally more forgiving.

High end trials (I assume you mean recent HMs) aren’t the same as other content, that is true, but that doesn’t make light armor bad in general. The game isn’t all trials. Besides, in this high end content the parse DPS are all going to be stamarcs anyways so the point is moot. Even then, I have used my warden in RG HM before (although, only Oax clear), so I can’t say I’ve ever experienced my warden not being enough to be picked.

It depends on how you think about it. Either way, light armor does need some help. For being an armor for magicka dps AND healing, it being pretty crap outside of dungeons and overland is not really acceptable. Healers run it because they have to. Penetration does nothing for them especially moreso in group content. And it does nothing for organised trial dps. There should be an additional small damage and healing bonus given to the armor. Especially because it has way more downsides than medium.

FrancisCrawford · March 3

Soarora wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Hidden tip: Frost Touch & Frost Reach (Destruction Staff skill line) deal more damage with frost staves--equal damage to Force Pulse or Cliff Racer. It's not mentioned at all in the tooltip or anywhere, but once you put it on your bar with a frost staff equipped, and mouse over the tooltip on your bar (not in the skill menu), you'll see the damage increase.

The reason why frost touch/reach does more damage with frost staves is because wardens do more ice damage. Same thing happens with sorcs and lightning damage. That said, frost reach is pretty important for frostden and really fun to use. Great to pair with dsa ice staff.

Nooo lol, that's 100% false! Frost Touch & Reach deals more direct damage for ALL classes--equal to Force Pulse/Dive/Silver Bolts/Imbue Weapon. Also, wardens don't get a buff to frost damage.

There's a hidden bonus to Frost Touch & Reach to make them deal standard spammable direct damage that is not listed in the tooltip and is only visible from the skill bar (not the skill menu) while the skill is slotted on an active bar with an ice staff. It's an ~83% increase to the direct damage portion (the DoT is the same).

Shock Reach doesn't do the same thing on Sorcerers at all, they just get a small boost to shock damage. Frost Reach deals more damage with an Ice Staff on any character.

And to expand: Wardens don't get a frost damage buff. Their passive says: "Increases your damage done by 2%, which increases to 12% when wielding an Ice Staff." So that's a 12% damage increase to the other damage types, as well. So this 12% would also buff Force Pulse/Dive/Silver Bolts/Imbue Weapon, as well. And the bonus to Frost Reach is about 83% when you look at it on your skill bar with an Ice Staff, so it's a different source.

If I'm being pushy, it's because this is an unlisted mechanic that frost staff players should know about. I assume it was made with frost players in mind, it's just a secret for some reason.

Hmm, the reason why I thought wardens had a buff to frost damage is because iirc frost glyphs do more damage on a warden like shock glyphs do more damage on a sorc when you’re in the create glyph menu. Could be wrong though, I’m just a person.

Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.

Soarora · March 3

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Hidden tip: Frost Touch & Frost Reach (Destruction Staff skill line) deal more damage with frost staves--equal damage to Force Pulse or Cliff Racer. It's not mentioned at all in the tooltip or anywhere, but once you put it on your bar with a frost staff equipped, and mouse over the tooltip on your bar (not in the skill menu), you'll see the damage increase.

The reason why frost touch/reach does more damage with frost staves is because wardens do more ice damage. Same thing happens with sorcs and lightning damage. That said, frost reach is pretty important for frostden and really fun to use. Great to pair with dsa ice staff.

Nooo lol, that's 100% false! Frost Touch & Reach deals more direct damage for ALL classes--equal to Force Pulse/Dive/Silver Bolts/Imbue Weapon. Also, wardens don't get a buff to frost damage.

There's a hidden bonus to Frost Touch & Reach to make them deal standard spammable direct damage that is not listed in the tooltip and is only visible from the skill bar (not the skill menu) while the skill is slotted on an active bar with an ice staff. It's an ~83% increase to the direct damage portion (the DoT is the same).

Shock Reach doesn't do the same thing on Sorcerers at all, they just get a small boost to shock damage. Frost Reach deals more damage with an Ice Staff on any character.

And to expand: Wardens don't get a frost damage buff. Their passive says: "Increases your damage done by 2%, which increases to 12% when wielding an Ice Staff." So that's a 12% damage increase to the other damage types, as well. So this 12% would also buff Force Pulse/Dive/Silver Bolts/Imbue Weapon, as well. And the bonus to Frost Reach is about 83% when you look at it on your skill bar with an Ice Staff, so it's a different source.

If I'm being pushy, it's because this is an unlisted mechanic that frost staff players should know about. I assume it was made with frost players in mind, it's just a secret for some reason.

Hmm, the reason why I thought wardens had a buff to frost damage is because iirc frost glyphs do more damage on a warden like shock glyphs do more damage on a sorc when you’re in the create glyph menu. Could be wrong though, I’m just a person.

Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.

Ahh gotcha, glad I'm not crazy!

Zodiarkslayer · March 3

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Netch and light armor are damage losses. You have to run a ton of medium and swap betty for a DoT. ...
... light armor, ... it's a pretty crap armor type.

@ESO_Nightingale
I have respect for you, your knowledge and commitment to the class. But man, something clenches inside of me everytime I read post with that type of sentiment.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

For high end trial purposes it's absolutely not enough to be picked. Overland and dungeons are not trials and have different gearing expectations. They're generally more forgiving.

Or that. Expecially when OP pointed out that he is ...

ADarklore wrote: »

... curious how the Frostden build performs in soloing group dungeons and world bosses?

It is fine to point out the gaps to other and inconsistencies within the class, but the needs of the few (very very very few, tbh, if we talk about MagDPS in "high end trials") must not outweigh the needs of the many (very very very many, if we are talking about all light armor users, that need these 20% to 28% mag recovery and the 10% to 14% cost reduction for their builds).

In a discord chat a couple of weeks back, a guildmate shared her opinion on the matter. I do not agree with this entirely, but she has a point and it's stuck in the back of my head ever since.
She cleverly put it this way:
"Do you know why they call it endgame community?" - "Ahm, no?" -
"It's because, if the DEVs start to listen to them, it's the end of the game!"

ESO_Nightingale · March 3

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Netch and light armor are damage losses. You have to run a ton of medium and swap betty for a DoT. ...
... light armor, ... it's a pretty crap armor type.

@ESO_Nightingale
I have respect for you, your knowledge and commitment to the class. But man, something clenches inside of me everytime I read post with that type of sentiment.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

For high end trial purposes it's absolutely not enough to be picked. Overland and dungeons are not trials and have different gearing expectations. They're generally more forgiving.

Or that. Expecially when OP pointed out that he is ...

ADarklore wrote: »

... curious how the Frostden build performs in soloing group dungeons and world bosses?

It is fine to point out the gaps to other classes, but the needs of the few (very very very few, tbh, if we talk about MagDPS in "high end trials") must not be put above the needs of the many (very very very many, if we are talking about all light armor users, that need these 20% to 28% mag recovery and the 10% to 14% cost reduction for their builds).

In a discord chat a couple of weeks back, a guildmate shared her opinion on the matter. I do not agree with this entirely, but she has a point and it's stuck in the back of my head ever since.
She cleverly put it this way:
"Do you know why they call it endgame community?" - "Ahm, no?" -
"It's because, if the DEVs start to listen to them, it's the end of the game!"

here is my opinion on the end quote you listed that your guildmate made. (while you stated you don't agree with it entirely), i simply don't see how positive changes to an armor type would hurt types of players who not only don't engage with endgame, but also would benefit from them. the argument i'm trying to make is that light armor as is, is simply not designed in the best interests of its intended audiences, removing penetration is probably not the play, however adding some bonuses, or increasing the critical chance would prove to be a positive change due to the fact that the armor's weaknesses limit its potential in certain content.
PvE is the type of gamemode where game balance decisions usually only truely matter for the higher end of content. in a world where you simply refuse to balance for the highest ends of content, you achieve stagnancy. people look for the paths of least resistance to meet their goals and so everyone always looks for the easiest and most powerful builds. if these things never change, what is to stop people from getting bored? total balance of course, can never under any circumstance be achieved, but looking at endgame is an essential part of the equation around balancing the content itself, (dungeons, trials etc). there is simply no other way to balance a game like this without looking at what the endgame is doing, and adjusting there first. afterall, you need people clearing the content in order to get data.
you need endgame players in order to make the game a better experience for everyone. despite how villainous we're made out to be, a lot of us want the game to be the best it can be.

in addition, i think that the topic we're currently talking about has (obviously) heavily deviated from the topic of origin. in solo environments and stuff, we're pretty solid, i stated as much in my first comment.

Zodiarkslayer · March 4

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

...
you need endgame players in order to make the game a better experience for everyone. despite how villainous we're made out to be, a lot of us want the game to be the best it can be. ...

Exactly. That vilification was what I disagreed with. She has a tendency to step in for the silent majority and be the voice of the little man against "them" up there.
You know the type. The heart is in the right place, but burns too brightly sometimes.

Anyway, I want to make a final point nonetheless. In general it is possible to balance "bottom to top". In games where you want to give all players the same starting chances, this is often seen. Take FPS games, for example. There the main factors for success are player skill and group tactics, which is very engaging. In extreme cases like Counter Strike, you will see the same balance as 20 years ago. Here, the lack of changes creates stability, not stagnancy.
My point is to encourage a change of perspective from time to time. Seeing the same facts in a different light will sometimes lead to different conclusions.

Take our armor problem in ESO. Medium armor dominates the builds in end game. That has the consequence of sustain issues for MagDPS.
To argue to buff light armor or nerf medium until both are equal, is only one way of seeing things.
Another way would be to take a look at what makes medium so strong. The answer is obviously the percentage bonus to WD/SD and how it interacts with other bonuses of the same kind. Back when I was still raiding, the medium armor bonus could amount to 900+ WD/SD on optimised build. If not more. That's the equivalent of 7 standard set bonuses. That makes it 50% to 60% more effective than the bonus to penetration on one light armor piece. And since penetration is capped and WD/SD is not, the problem only gets amplified.
Now, if the Agility passive would give 80 to 100 WD/SD per piece instead of +2%, it would result in a buff for most low to mid builds, while only at the higher end players would feel the nerf. But MagDPS would have a higher incentive to equip Light armor, because the comparative damage loss is much smaller now.

Having a fixed perspective leads to tunnel vision. One will go through life wearing blinders.
A change of perspective is good for everyone.

ADarklore · March 4

Um... glad I was able to stimulate a conversation... albeit off the beaten track a bit, but all is good.

All this talk about 'endgame' though, which brings up a different topic completely, exactly WHAT is 'endgame' in ESO? Because it means different things to different people. In ESO, there really is no clear 'endgame'. Some say trials, but ESO is an MMO that focuses mostly on quests, open world, solo content... so for us, there really is no endgame. Our endgame is just waiting for the next quest DLC. For some players, endgame is highest difficulty dungeons, for some endgame is fashion, collecting achievements, others it's PvP, etc.

So in reality, the changes you are talking about may only be important for a small minority of players... but could, depending on their approach, be harmful for a larger percentage of players. For my Frostden, I wear ALL light armor. In solo content, the added pen and crit are very important to me, and if I have high enough crit I can always run Shadow mundus. If I were running my Arcanist, there's the class I split light/medium... but for a dedicated Mag character, unless I'm going with a heavy attack build, light armor is definitely necessary.

ESO_Nightingale · March 4

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

...
you need endgame players in order to make the game a better experience for everyone. despite how villainous we're made out to be, a lot of us want the game to be the best it can be. ...

Exactly. That vilification was what I disagreed with. She has a tendency to step in for the silent majority and be the voice of the little man against "them" up there.
You know the type. The heart is in the right place, but burns too brightly sometimes.

Anyway, I want to make a final point nonetheless. In general it is possible to balance "bottom to top". In games where you want to give all players the same starting chances, this is often seen. Take FPS games, for example. There the main factors for success are player skill and group tactics, which is very engaging. In extreme cases like Counter Strike, you will see the same balance as 20 years ago. Here, the lack of changes creates stability, not stagnancy.
My point is to encourage a change of perspective from time to time. Seeing the same facts in a different light will sometimes lead to different conclusions.

Take our armor problem in ESO. Medium armor dominates the builds in end game. That has the consequence of sustain issues for MagDPS.
To argue to buff light armor or nerf medium until both are equal, is only one way of seeing things.
Another way would be to take a look at what makes medium so strong. The answer is obviously the percentage bonus to WD/SD and how it interacts with other bonuses of the same kind. Back when I was still raiding, the medium armor bonus could amount to 900+ WD/SD on optimised build. If not more. That's the equivalent of 7 standard set bonuses. That makes it 50% to 60% more effective than the bonus to penetration on one light armor piece. And since penetration is capped and WD/SD is not, the problem only gets amplified.
Now, if the Agility passive would give 80 to 100 WD/SD per piece instead of +2%, it would result in a buff for most low to mid builds, while only at the higher end players would feel the nerf. But MagDPS would have a higher incentive to equip Light armor, because the comparative damage loss is much smaller now.

Having a fixed perspective leads to tunnel vision. One will go through life wearing blinders.
A change of perspective is good for everyone.

i do think the route ZOS would go eventually is nerfing medium armor since they generally do want to control just how high damage has gotten. but yeah, theres just so much vilification against endgame players. its really strange. my major issue with the whole thing is feeling forced to use medium armor just to maximise my damage. needing to sacrifice so much sustain to do that is frustrating but a necessary evil. as long as however they adress it works, that's fine by me.

ESO_Nightingale · March 4

ADarklore wrote: »

Um... glad I was able to stimulate a conversation... albeit off the beaten track a bit, but all is good.

All this talk about 'endgame' though, which brings up a different topic completely, exactly WHAT is 'endgame' in ESO? Because it means different things to different people. In ESO, there really is no clear 'endgame'. Some say trials, but ESO is an MMO that focuses mostly on quests, open world, solo content... so for us, there really is no endgame. Our endgame is just waiting for the next quest DLC. For some players, endgame is highest difficulty dungeons, for some endgame is fashion, collecting achievements, others it's PvP, etc.

So in reality, the changes you are talking about may only be important for a small minority of players... but could, depending on their approach, be harmful for a larger percentage of players. For my Frostden, I wear ALL light armor. In solo content, the added pen and crit are very important to me, and if I have high enough crit I can always run Shadow mundus. If I were running my Arcanist, there's the class I split light/medium... but for a dedicated Mag character, unless I'm going with a heavy attack build, light armor is definitely necessary.

generally in pve "endgame" means hardmode clears, trifectas and scorerunning as well as the people around them who theorycraft bis settups by parsing and running numbers, i would classify myself under the later category as i've been waiting for something like spellcrafting to come out in order to get back into trials and slam out trifectas and stuff, i haven't touched them properly in a couple years now. endgame meaning is definitely applicable to different types of players and content spheres though. i apologise, i do tend to wildly divert topics when making conversation.

Soarora · March 4

ADarklore wrote: »

Um... glad I was able to stimulate a conversation... albeit off the beaten track a bit, but all is good.

All this talk about 'endgame' though, which brings up a different topic completely, exactly WHAT is 'endgame' in ESO? Because it means different things to different people. In ESO, there really is no clear 'endgame'. Some say trials, but ESO is an MMO that focuses mostly on quests, open world, solo content... so for us, there really is no endgame. Our endgame is just waiting for the next quest DLC. For some players, endgame is highest difficulty dungeons, for some endgame is fashion, collecting achievements, others it's PvP, etc.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/652870/do-you-consider-normal-trials-to-be-endgame-content#latest

ADarklore · March 4

Soarora wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Um... glad I was able to stimulate a conversation... albeit off the beaten track a bit, but all is good.

All this talk about 'endgame' though, which brings up a different topic completely, exactly WHAT is 'endgame' in ESO? Because it means different things to different people. In ESO, there really is no clear 'endgame'. Some say trials, but ESO is an MMO that focuses mostly on quests, open world, solo content... so for us, there really is no endgame. Our endgame is just waiting for the next quest DLC. For some players, endgame is highest difficulty dungeons, for some endgame is fashion, collecting achievements, others it's PvP, etc.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/652870/do-you-consider-normal-trials-to-be-endgame-content#latest

Well, according to that poll the majority of respondents DO NOT consider normal trials to be endgame. But just goes back to my initial comment that players have a variety of opinion on what is, or isn't, "endgame" content. I think the bigger question is, what does ZOS consider endgame content? Perhaps they feel ESO doesn't even HAVE 'endgame' content because it's an MMO that doesn't have an 'end'.

Soarora · March 4

ADarklore wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Um... glad I was able to stimulate a conversation... albeit off the beaten track a bit, but all is good.

All this talk about 'endgame' though, which brings up a different topic completely, exactly WHAT is 'endgame' in ESO? Because it means different things to different people. In ESO, there really is no clear 'endgame'. Some say trials, but ESO is an MMO that focuses mostly on quests, open world, solo content... so for us, there really is no endgame. Our endgame is just waiting for the next quest DLC. For some players, endgame is highest difficulty dungeons, for some endgame is fashion, collecting achievements, others it's PvP, etc.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/652870/do-you-consider-normal-trials-to-be-endgame-content#latest

Well, according to that poll the majority of respondents DO NOT consider normal trials to be endgame. But just goes back to my initial comment that players have a variety of opinion on what is, or isn't, "endgame" content. I think the bigger question is, what does ZOS consider endgame content? Perhaps they feel ESO doesn't even HAVE 'endgame' content because it's an MMO that doesn't have an 'end'.

Yeah, there’s a lot of discussion on both sides in the thread. It’d be nice if ZOS just defined it for us, I agree.

AcadianPaladin · March 4

I quite like that defining 'end game' is up to each player. For me, end game is solo hunting non-dlc WBs and solo running normal non-dlc dungeons. I find that to be the perfect 'sweet spot' for me and have no interest in dlc WBs/dungeons, vet or trials because I can't solo them.

moderatelyfatman · March 5

@FrancisCrawford [/quote]
Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.[/quote]

They should increase the buff but make it only applicable to frost damage.
Likewise, they should have a large buff that is only applicable to bleed damage and requires the warden to equip a martial weapon.

This would immediately create two very distinct and iconic playstyles: the Frost Magicka Ice Warden and the Bleed Stamden.

ADarklore · March 5

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford
Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.

They should increase the buff but make it only applicable to frost damage.
Likewise, they should have a large buff that is only applicable to bleed damage and requires the warden to equip a martial weapon.

This would immediately create two very distinct and iconic playstyles: the Frost Magicka Ice Warden and the Bleed Stamden.

The problem with that is, a Frostden only has so much frost damage abilities. Which is why it sucked so bad the way they had it previously. It would be different if we had more class skills that did frost damage, and as it is, a Frostden has to rely on frost destruction staff abilities to add more frost damage- due to lack of frost damage from class abilities. For this to work, they would have to make some of the Warden morphs into frost damage. Instead of doing that, they simply increased the amount of damage while wielding a frost staff.

The same would apply to your suggestion about bleed... they would have to increase the sources of bleed damage a Warden has to make it worthwhile. Personally, I think they should just increase the amount of damage a Warden does with ALL their skills, which would give players more build variety without having to worry about changing the skills.

ESO_Nightingale · March 5

ADarklore wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford
Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.

They should increase the buff but make it only applicable to frost damage.
Likewise, they should have a large buff that is only applicable to bleed damage and requires the warden to equip a martial weapon.

This would immediately create two very distinct and iconic playstyles: the Frost Magicka Ice Warden and the Bleed Stamden.

The problem with that is, a Frostden only has so much frost damage abilities. Which is why it sucked so bad the way they had it previously. It would be different if we had more class skills that did frost damage, and as it is, a Frostden has to rely on frost destruction staff abilities to add more frost damage- due to lack of frost damage from class abilities. For this to work, they would have to make some of the Warden morphs into frost damage. Instead of doing that, they simply increased the amount of damage while wielding a frost staff.

The same would apply to your suggestion about bleed... they would have to increase the sources of bleed damage a Warden has to make it worthwhile. Personally, I think they should just increase the amount of damage a Warden does with ALL their skills, which would give players more build variety without having to worry about changing the skills.

We're about to get grimoires with customisable damage types. The ability to make frost or bleed damage skills will soon be in our hands.

yadibroz · March 5

ADarklore wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford
Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.

They should increase the buff but make it only applicable to frost damage.
Likewise, they should have a large buff that is only applicable to bleed damage and requires the warden to equip a martial weapon.

This would immediately create two very distinct and iconic playstyles: the Frost Magicka Ice Warden and the Bleed Stamden.

The problem with that is, a Frostden only has so much frost damage abilities. Which is why it sucked so bad the way they had it previously. It would be different if we had more class skills that did frost damage, and as it is, a Frostden has to rely on frost destruction staff abilities to add more frost damage- due to lack of frost damage from class abilities. For this to work, they would have to make some of the Warden morphs into frost damage. Instead of doing that, they simply increased the amount of damage while wielding a frost staff.

The same would apply to your suggestion about bleed... they would have to increase the sources of bleed damage a Warden has to make it worthwhile. Personally, I think they should just increase the amount of damage a Warden does with ALL their skills, which would give players more build variety without having to worry about changing the skills.

No frost has many less abilities, they need more

Zodiarkslayer · March 5

[quote="ESO_Nightingale;c-806067
We're about to get grimoires with customisable damage types. The ability to make frost or bleed damage skills will soon be in our hands.[/quote]

Have they announced any details to the variety of effects and how they are supposed to be distributed over the weapon abilities?

I only know of the Bow and Soul Magic abilities, yet.

universal_wrath · March 5

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Hidden tip: Frost Touch & Frost Reach (Destruction Staff skill line) deal more damage with frost staves--equal damage to Force Pulse or Cliff Racer. It's not mentioned at all in the tooltip or anywhere, but once you put it on your bar with a frost staff equipped, and mouse over the tooltip on your bar (not in the skill menu), you'll see the damage increase.

The reason why frost touch/reach does more damage with frost staves is because wardens do more ice damage. Same thing happens with sorcs and lightning damage. That said, frost reach is pretty important for frostden and really fun to use. Great to pair with dsa ice staff.

Nooo lol, that's 100% false! Frost Touch & Reach deals more direct damage for ALL classes--equal to Force Pulse/Dive/Silver Bolts/Imbue Weapon. Also, wardens don't get a buff to frost damage.

There's a hidden bonus to Frost Touch & Reach to make them deal standard spammable direct damage that is not listed in the tooltip and is only visible from the skill bar (not the skill menu) while the skill is slotted on an active bar with an ice staff. It's an ~83% increase to the direct damage portion (the DoT is the same).

Shock Reach doesn't do the same thing on Sorcerers at all, they just get a small boost to shock damage. Frost Reach deals more damage with an Ice Staff on any character.

And to expand: Wardens don't get a frost damage buff. Their passive says: "Increases your damage done by 2%, which increases to 12% when wielding an Ice Staff." So that's a 12% damage increase to the other damage types, as well. So this 12% would also buff Force Pulse/Dive/Silver Bolts/Imbue Weapon, as well. And the bonus to Frost Reach is about 83% when you look at it on your skill bar with an Ice Staff, so it's a different source.

If I'm being pushy, it's because this is an unlisted mechanic that frost staff players should know about. I assume it was made with frost players in mind, it's just a secret for some reason.

Hmm, the reason why I thought wardens had a buff to frost damage is because iirc frost glyphs do more damage on a warden like shock glyphs do more damage on a sorc when you’re in the create glyph menu. Could be wrong though, I’m just a person.

Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.

Oh I remmember it, I believe it was 9% frost dmg and people went crazy because sorcerer was only getting 6%. Now I like the new passive as it complement frost wordens by using a frost weapon to further increase their dmg. I wish we see unique bonuses to sorcerers and lighting staves. Lightning staves have long been underused only for heavy attack builds even when it fits right into sorcerer lighting playstyle

universal_wrath · March 5

yadibroz wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford
Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.

They should increase the buff but make it only applicable to frost damage.
Likewise, they should have a large buff that is only applicable to bleed damage and requires the warden to equip a martial weapon.

This would immediately create two very distinct and iconic playstyles: the Frost Magicka Ice Warden and the Bleed Stamden.

The problem with that is, a Frostden only has so much frost damage abilities. Which is why it sucked so bad the way they had it previously. It would be different if we had more class skills that did frost damage, and as it is, a Frostden has to rely on frost destruction staff abilities to add more frost damage- due to lack of frost damage from class abilities. For this to work, they would have to make some of the Warden morphs into frost damage. Instead of doing that, they simply increased the amount of damage while wielding a frost staff.

The same would apply to your suggestion about bleed... they would have to increase the sources of bleed damage a Warden has to make it worthwhile. Personally, I think they should just increase the amount of damage a Warden does with ALL their skills, which would give players more build variety without having to worry about changing the skills.

No frost has many less abilities, they need more

In my opinion, mages guild rune skill should be specific you what elemental weapon you use. Frost staff = frost mine dmg, lighting staff = shock dmg, resto/physical weapons = magic dmg. This will be huge boost to any themic build for them to use more skills to boost there respective dmg, this same treatment could also be applied to the ever dreadful soul trap skill that nobody use.

FrancisCrawford · March 6

universal_wrath wrote: »

yadibroz wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford
Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.

They should increase the buff but make it only applicable to frost damage.
Likewise, they should have a large buff that is only applicable to bleed damage and requires the warden to equip a martial weapon.

This would immediately create two very distinct and iconic playstyles: the Frost Magicka Ice Warden and the Bleed Stamden.

The problem with that is, a Frostden only has so much frost damage abilities. Which is why it sucked so bad the way they had it previously. It would be different if we had more class skills that did frost damage, and as it is, a Frostden has to rely on frost destruction staff abilities to add more frost damage- due to lack of frost damage from class abilities. For this to work, they would have to make some of the Warden morphs into frost damage. Instead of doing that, they simply increased the amount of damage while wielding a frost staff.

The same would apply to your suggestion about bleed... they would have to increase the sources of bleed damage a Warden has to make it worthwhile. Personally, I think they should just increase the amount of damage a Warden does with ALL their skills, which would give players more build variety without having to worry about changing the skills.

No frost has many less abilities, they need more

In my opinion, mages guild rune skill should be specific you what elemental weapon you use. Frost staff = frost mine dmg, lighting staff = shock dmg, resto/physical weapons = magic dmg. This will be huge boost to any themic build for them to use more skills to boost there respective dmg, this same treatment could also be applied to the ever dreadful soul trap skill that nobody use.

Soul Trap is probably pretty good for new players, in that:

The resource return from Consuming Trap can matter in trash fights.
Trash fights can last long enough that the DoT from either morph can have value.
Passives boosting skills in other lines may not have unlocked yet.

ShadowKyuubi · March 6

Here are a couple of my builds, one is a serious trial build (Rele/Nirn/Zaan) and the other is a more fun and thematic build (Depths/Frostbite/Zaan).

Trial Build

Fun Build

ESO_Nightingale · March 6

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

[quote="ESO_Nightingale;c-806067
We're about to get grimoires with customisable damage types. The ability to make frost or bleed damage skills will soon be in our hands.

Have they announced any details to the variety of effects and how they are supposed to be distributed over the weapon abilities?

I only know of the Bow and Soul Magic abilities, yet.[/quote]

They've not shown anything other than what is in the trailer which itself had work in progress UI not representative of the final version. We only saw i think flame, poison and bleed damage types listed for the bow one (vault). However the status effect changes this update indicates that they plan for every damage type to have at least a bit of representation in the new system. Best of all, it's the type of system that can be expanded upon so even if it's not there at launch, we should be able to recieve it later down the line during updates.

RandomKodiak · March 6

Nightingale they have not made any more announcements but they did say that the ones previewed on the bow were not all of the choices just examples. So hopefully you are correct on every damage type being represented.

ESO_Nightingale · March 9

RandomKodiak wrote: »

Nightingale they have not made any more announcements but they did say that the ones previewed on the bow were not all of the choices just examples. So hopefully you are correct on every damage type being represented.

I hope so too. But the destruction staff one should at the very least have options for frost shock and fire.

Zodiarkslayer · March 9

Here is to hoping. 🍻

Shadowbinder7 · July 9

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

...
you need endgame players in order to make the game a better experience for everyone. despite how villainous we're made out to be, a lot of us want the game to be the best it can be. ...

Exactly. That vilification was what I disagreed with. She has a tendency to step in for the silent majority and be the voice of the little man against "them" up there.
You know the type. The heart is in the right place, but burns too brightly sometimes.

Anyway, I want to make a final point nonetheless. In general it is possible to balance "bottom to top". In games where you want to give all players the same starting chances, this is often seen. Take FPS games, for example. There the main factors for success are player skill and group tactics, which is very engaging. In extreme cases like Counter Strike, you will see the same balance as 20 years ago. Here, the lack of changes creates stability, not stagnancy.
My point is to encourage a change of perspective from time to time. Seeing the same facts in a different light will sometimes lead to different conclusions.

Take our armor problem in ESO. Medium armor dominates the builds in end game. That has the consequence of sustain issues for MagDPS.
To argue to buff light armor or nerf medium until both are equal, is only one way of seeing things.
Another way would be to take a look at what makes medium so strong. The answer is obviously the percentage bonus to WD/SD and how it interacts with other bonuses of the same kind. Back when I was still raiding, the medium armor bonus could amount to 900+ WD/SD on optimised build. If not more. That's the equivalent of 7 standard set bonuses. That makes it 50% to 60% more effective than the bonus to penetration on one light armor piece. And since penetration is capped and WD/SD is not, the problem only gets amplified.
Now, if the Agility passive would give 80 to 100 WD/SD per piece instead of +2%, it would result in a buff for most low to mid builds, while only at the higher end players would feel the nerf. But MagDPS would have a higher incentive to equip Light armor, because the comparative damage loss is much smaller now.

Having a fixed perspective leads to tunnel vision. One will go through life wearing blinders.
A change of perspective is good for everyone.

I liked this 😄 very true indeed. Multiple approaches to tackling these problems, just takes thinking outside the box and careful consideration and comparison of multiple potential solutions. Though it feels nicer if it’s done more by the devs and less by the players, since we are playing a game after all 😅 while theory crafting, changing testing compromising with builds on all my alts is fun it’s very time consuming…

Sometimes I wish I could just slap on a certain well performing preset for each class and not have to worry/second guess for 6 months… then I can focus more on enjoying the challenging content in the game

Shadowbinder7 · July 9

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

@FrancisCrawford

Wardens USED to have a buff to frost damage. It was recently taken away, basically replaced by a buff to all damage when wielding an ice staff.[/quote]

They should increase the buff but make it only applicable to frost damage.
Likewise, they should have a large buff that is only applicable to bleed damage and requires the warden to equip a martial weapon.

This would immediately create two very distinct and iconic playstyles: the Frost Magicka Ice Warden and the Bleed Stamden.[/quote]

I wish. Though truth be told I always loved switching between bleed stamden and BOW stamden. Can’t deny how archer stamden just feels so right

Next update (U43) they are changing piercing cold to remove the ice staff involvement. While I’m happy stamden will get a needed buff, I worry for my beautiful frost magden with frontbar master ice staff set up… I worry she will no longer be considered viable as a dd and new warden dd will just be be plain old stamden dw/2h again

Though I suppose again it doesn’t matter with all the stamarc, magdk supremacy at the moment

haelgaan · July 9

yup and also changing AB to a AOE damage instead of a burst heal if you're next to an enemy - because warden tanks need to do more DPS when they're tanking an enemy and don't need a burst heal?