vault skill is basically worthless now

dinokstrunz · May 9

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If we expand the discussion and compare Streak's effects with Vault you can see Vault is better than Streak/BoL. For example look at this:

Streak: does 4.3k damage, has AoE unblockable stun, and moves 15m in front

Vault: does 2.5k dmg, immobilizes enemies, cleanses 3 snares or immobilization effects, and applies Major Evasion

That's nothing new. ZoS has been trying to hand out Sorcerer skills to everyone over the years, most of the time better than Streak. Vampire Mist is also a significantly better version than Streak which not only absorbs ranged attacks, but also grants expedition and evasion, potentially freeing up bar space.

I have been contemplating to drop Streak in favor of Mist for pvp, with the stun being the primary reason to use it. Might change when spell scribing allows stuns on Wield Soul.

lol streak will continue to be one of the most top tier abilities in the game. Mist form is garbage in comparison and this vault will probably go the same way thanks to anti fun policies at ZoS. These skills aren't even close to how great streak is, be real.

TechMaybeHic · May 9

I don't know. Im tempted to make a vamp sorc and streak, mist, vault back to back and troll the hell out of people. Just use the extra second before recourse on an ability

Dracane · May 9

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If we expand the discussion and compare Streak's effects with Vault you can see Vault is better than Streak/BoL. For example look at this:

Streak: does 4.3k damage, has AoE unblockable stun, and moves 15m in front

Vault: does 2.5k dmg, immobilizes enemies, cleanses 3 snares or immobilization effects, and applies Major Evasion

That's nothing new. ZoS has been trying to hand out Sorcerer skills to everyone over the years, most of the time better than Streak. Vampire Mist is also a significantly better version than Streak which not only absorbs ranged attacks, but also grants expedition and evasion, potentially freeing up bar space.

I have been contemplating to drop Streak in favor of Mist for pvp, with the stun being the primary reason to use it. Might change when spell scribing allows stuns on Wield Soul.

lol streak will continue to be one of the most top tier abilities in the game. Mist form is garbage in comparison and this vault will probably go the same way thanks to anti fun policies at ZoS. These skills aren't even close to how great streak is, be real.

Streak is great, as it should be as a class skill, but the passive power of Mist and Vault, I also can not deny.

deadpool3431 · May 10

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Vault is fine (Just finished testing it myself).

The nerf to jump height while a small annoyance for some ledges, was necessary to prevent abusing the ability to leap up onto keep walls (which you know will 100% have been abused if it made it to live like that). The difference is barely noticeable outside of cliff riding and a few niche spots.
The only place I am noticing any hitches is specifically in one of my guild halls where there's raised platforms that create a sort of double landing when vault lands on them. However, on the default floor of that same house, it's completely smooth, no "double landing" hitch at all.

As for the options/effects the skill has, it's more than OK here.

Heal, Immobilize, Snare removal, Snare and roll dodge + fall damage reduction are all still good options.
Sure, there's not one clear overpowered option anymore (fall damage reduction, which at 50% was absurd), but there are still good options and the fall damage script kept the roll dodge cost stack reduction which is very powerful.
The disease damage is also an underrated choice for PvP too, especially on classes that don't inherently have access to disease damage in their kit. Inflicting defile is good for reducing enemy heals/shields while you kite and lay into them with ranged attacks at the same time.

The skill will still be a very strong (and fun) offensive + defensive kiting tool for PvP, it just won't be completely broken now by being infinitely spammable.

If anything needs fixing with vault, it's when it catches an invisible ceiling/wall mid air when trying to vault up ledges, but that was happening before the fixes that were made this patch.

Thecramping cost is fair if it is comparable to streak. It isnt. The vault itself is the only thing that would have made it stand out at all. It is underpowered compared to any comparable class skill or weapon skill and the possible buffs are easily aquirable in other ways.
the "invisible wall" is the exact reason for the post. It is completely useless as a defensive escape tool in pvp due to you having to be on flat level or facing uphill ground. If you are facing downhill in even the slightest way you will do a standing summersault that negates no damage the way roll dodge does. You will not be able to kite with it. As it stands it is a flashy animation with no real benefit

deadpool3431 · May 10

Seraphayel wrote: »

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

I'm pretty sure it was hyperoxies showing how you can skip dungeon bosses and get out of bounds that got it nerfed. Most of the stuff you could do with vault that make people complain in pvp, you can still do on a mount.

deadpool3431 · May 11

Here is a side by side comparison for the naysayers. After watching this please explain how vault is "now in line with streak and mistform"

https://youtu.be/4AgJWdwRTN4?si=3vZaz38YwOPJQMTb

Seraphayel · May 11

It‘s an all around terrible change for Vault. The stacking cost was totally justified, but they butchered everything else. Jumping over keep walls? Come on pls.

Genfe · May 11

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Here is a side by side comparison for the naysayers. After watching this please explain how vault is "now in line with streak and mistform" https://youtu.be/4AgJWdwRTN4?si=3vZaz38YwOPJQMTb

Man I really wanted to have fun and that’s kinda pathetic

BlueRaven · May 11

It figures it has to be the bow skill that becomes terrible.

StaticWave · May 13

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Here is a side by side comparison for the naysayers. After watching this please explain how vault is "now in line with streak and mistform" https://youtu.be/4AgJWdwRTN4?si=3vZaz38YwOPJQMTb

Now show that same demonstration but downhill, like this:

https://youtu.be/MB_bgv6ax04?si=DZJsg435SaMNOCH1

https://youtu.be/-uAnU0EYz84?si=qVrAjFNg1TRCtSU6

Looks fine to me. No fall damage, faster landing time, and better 2nd and 3rd effects.

CameraBeardThePirate · May 13

StaticWave wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Here is a side by side comparison for the naysayers. After watching this please explain how vault is "now in line with streak and mistform" https://youtu.be/4AgJWdwRTN4?si=3vZaz38YwOPJQMTb

Now show that same demonstration but downhill, like this:

https://youtu.be/MB_bgv6ax04?si=DZJsg435SaMNOCH1

https://youtu.be/-uAnU0EYz84?si=qVrAjFNg1TRCtSU6

Looks fine to me. No fall damage, faster landing time, and better 2nd and 3rd effects.

But but but those good parts of the skill don't fit the narrative that Vault is trash!!!

StaticWave · May 13

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Here is a side by side comparison for the naysayers. After watching this please explain how vault is "now in line with streak and mistform" https://youtu.be/4AgJWdwRTN4?si=3vZaz38YwOPJQMTb

Now show that same demonstration but downhill, like this:

https://youtu.be/MB_bgv6ax04?si=DZJsg435SaMNOCH1

https://youtu.be/-uAnU0EYz84?si=qVrAjFNg1TRCtSU6

Looks fine to me. No fall damage, faster landing time, and better 2nd and 3rd effects.

But but but those good parts of the skill don't fit the narrative that Vault is trash!!!

Even if it makes me do a standing summersault, I will still use it because of these reasons:

1) AoE immobilization on targets around me
2) 3 snare/root effect cleanse
3) Option to have 22s of either Major Evasion/Major Savagery/Minor Expedition, which are strong PvP buffs

The 15m backward summersault is just the icing on the cake. I can see Bow Vault being very useful on some super mobile setups, and possibly on Necro as the class lacks mobility and built in source of Major Savagery.

BlueRaven · May 13

“Fixed an issue where your character wouldn't animate properly while bashing or dodge rolling immediately after casting Vault. This Grimoire will now properly disable your ability to take other actions while you are moving.”

So if I am reading this right: can’t bash, can’t dodge, ramping costs, and you may not actually jump back, just somersault in place?

Plus scribing still seems like a lot of work, I will focus my time on something else I think. I am not really seeing a positive use for this skill vs the effort it takes to get it.

CameraBeardThePirate · May 13

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Fixed an issue where your character wouldn't animate properly while bashing or dodge rolling immediately after casting Vault. This Grimoire will now properly disable your ability to take other actions while you are moving.”

So if I am reading this right: can’t bash, can’t dodge, ramping costs, and you may not actually jump back, just somersault in place?

Plus scribing still seems like a lot of work, I will focus my time on something else I think. I am not really seeing a positive use for this skill vs the effort it takes to get it.

I mean that's how literally every other teleport ability works. You can't bash or dodge roll while streaking either.

BlueRaven · May 13

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Fixed an issue where your character wouldn't animate properly while bashing or dodge rolling immediately after casting Vault. This Grimoire will now properly disable your ability to take other actions while you are moving.”

So if I am reading this right: can’t bash, can’t dodge, ramping costs, and you may not actually jump back, just somersault in place?

Plus scribing still seems like a lot of work, I will focus my time on something else I think. I am not really seeing a positive use for this skill vs the effort it takes to get it.

I mean that's how literally every other teleport ability works. You can't bash or dodge roll while streaking either.

Streak at least moves your character. And is easy to get.

Vault takes a lot of effort to get and becomes pointless if there is a slight incline behind you. And you may not be able to see what is actually behind you.

A skill that you have to cross your fingers and hope it works as intended AND has ramping costs to boot? Why put in the effort?

It was nice on paper, but I really wish the bow skill was something worth my while. I love using bows, but I want something reliable.

StaticWave · May 14

Wait till they find out Streaking on uneven grounds can sometimes make you do a stationary roll. Literally the same issue as Vault's stationary summersault, yet Streak is still one of the best defensive abilities.

deadpool3431 · May 14

StaticWave wrote: »

Wait till they find out Streaking on uneven grounds can sometimes make you do a stationary roll. Literally the same issue as Vault's stationary summersault, yet Streak is still one of the best defensive abilities.

Wait till you find out streak is facing forward and you can see the terrain in front ot you, and streak has utility while vault is literally has nothing you can't get with any other scribing skill........vault is not streak. Not close to streak, and never will be close to streak in it's current useless iteration.

deadpool3431 · May 14

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Here is a side by side comparison for the naysayers. After watching this please explain how vault is "now in line with streak and mistform" https://youtu.be/4AgJWdwRTN4?si=3vZaz38YwOPJQMTb

Now show that same demonstration but downhill, like this:

https://youtu.be/MB_bgv6ax04?si=DZJsg435SaMNOCH1

https://youtu.be/-uAnU0EYz84?si=qVrAjFNg1TRCtSU6

Looks fine to me. No fall damage, faster landing time, and better 2nd and 3rd effects.

But but but those good parts of the skill don't fit the narrative that Vault is trash!!!

But, but, but........you can get those with any other scribing skill at less cost and you don't have to use a bow. Also, now you get fall damage as of today.

StaticWave · May 14

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Wait till you find out streak is facing forward and you can see the terrain in front ot you

If I want to attack someone after Streaking, I have to turn the camera around mid Streak. If I want to attack someone after Bow Vaulting, I am already facing them.

This comparison is meaningless lol. Both skills are good at something and worse at another thing. Doesn't mean they're both bad.

deadpool3431 wrote: »

and streak has utility while vault is literally has nothing you can't get with any other scribing skill

AoE immobilization isn't utility? Other scribing abilities may have immobilization, but they don't have it built into an escape tool.

deadpool3431 wrote: »

vault is not streak. Not close to streak, and never will be close to streak in it's current useless iteration.

Your mistake is to compare them on equal grounds. Vault is definitely not Streak, and will never be close to Streak as an offensive ability. I'm 100% with you on that. But to claim it's useless is a stretch. I can think of several builds right now that will make good use of Bow Vault as an escape/utility ability.

BlueRaven · May 14

StaticWave wrote: »

Your mistake is to compare them on equal grounds. Vault is definitely not Streak, and will never be close to Streak as an offensive ability. I'm 100% with you on that. But to claim it's useless is a stretch. I can think of several builds right now that will make good use of Bow Vault as an escape/utility ability.

Make sure you label those builds as “for flat terrain only” because as an “escape/utility ability” it is not consistent nor reliable in any other setting.

Sakiri · May 14

Just wait til they find out that many games can't figure this out either.

In wow, we call this "no path available". Blink getting blocked by invisible pebbles is a known issue, as is being unable to heroic leap up tiny inclines.

Vault somersaulting you in place, or streak not working doesn't surprise me.

StaticWave · May 14

BlueRaven wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Your mistake is to compare them on equal grounds. Vault is definitely not Streak, and will never be close to Streak as an offensive ability. I'm 100% with you on that. But to claim it's useless is a stretch. I can think of several builds right now that will make good use of Bow Vault as an escape/utility ability.

Make sure you label those builds as “for flat terrain only” because as an “escape/utility ability” it is not consistent nor reliable in any other setting.

Same with Streak when going up or down a steep hill like the one betweem Roebeck Keep and Nikel Outpost.

Streak is just as bad on uneven terrain as Bow Vault, but at least I don’t take fall damage with Bow Vault lol

BlueRaven · May 14

StaticWave wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Your mistake is to compare them on equal grounds. Vault is definitely not Streak, and will never be close to Streak as an offensive ability. I'm 100% with you on that. But to claim it's useless is a stretch. I can think of several builds right now that will make good use of Bow Vault as an escape/utility ability.

Make sure you label those builds as “for flat terrain only” because as an “escape/utility ability” it is not consistent nor reliable in any other setting.

Same with Streak when going up or down a steep hill like the one betweem Roebeck Keep and Nikel Outpost.

Streak is just as bad on uneven terrain as Bow Vault, but at least I don’t take fall damage with Bow Vault lol

As someone else already said…

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Wait till they find out Streaking on uneven grounds can sometimes make you do a stationary roll. Literally the same issue as Vault's stationary summersault, yet Streak is still one of the best defensive abilities.

Wait till you find out streak is facing forward and you can see the terrain in front ot you, and streak has utility while vault is literally has nothing you can't get with any other scribing skill........vault is not streak. Not close to streak, and never will be close to streak in it's current useless iteration.

And just to add, “Trap Beast” plus backwards dodge roll… Ta Da! A more reliable vault.

Trinotops · May 14

StaticWave wrote: »

Wait till they find out Streaking on uneven grounds can sometimes make you do a stationary roll. Literally the same issue as Vault's stationary summersault, yet Streak is still one of the best defensive abilities.

Sometimes? How often is sometimes? You're comparing Streak "sometimes" not moving you (which I'm not even sure I've even seen myself in my limited time playing Sorc) to Vault which doesn't work let's say 33% of time (for upward, downward, and even terrain). So are you really trying to tell me that Streak just doesn't move your character 33% of the time?

StaticWave wrote: »

Same with Streak when going up or down a steep hill like the one betweem Roebeck Keep and Nikel Outpost.

Streak is just as bad on uneven terrain as Bow Vault, but at least I don’t take fall damage with Bow Vault lol

"Just as bad"? Really? You can clearly see in the videos in the thread that Vault is simply incapable of going up slopes. I know that Streak isn't perfect and can struggle on the steepest of slopes, but to say that they're even remotely close in terms of reliability is just completely wrong.

StaticWave · May 15

BlueRaven wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Your mistake is to compare them on equal grounds. Vault is definitely not Streak, and will never be close to Streak as an offensive ability. I'm 100% with you on that. But to claim it's useless is a stretch. I can think of several builds right now that will make good use of Bow Vault as an escape/utility ability.

Make sure you label those builds as “for flat terrain only” because as an “escape/utility ability” it is not consistent nor reliable in any other setting.

Same with Streak when going up or down a steep hill like the one betweem Roebeck Keep and Nikel Outpost.

Streak is just as bad on uneven terrain as Bow Vault, but at least I don’t take fall damage with Bow Vault lol

As someone else already said…

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Wait till they find out Streaking on uneven grounds can sometimes make you do a stationary roll. Literally the same issue as Vault's stationary summersault, yet Streak is still one of the best defensive abilities.

Wait till you find out streak is facing forward and you can see the terrain in front ot you, and streak has utility while vault is literally has nothing you can't get with any other scribing skill........vault is not streak. Not close to streak, and never will be close to streak in it's current useless iteration.

And just to add, “Trap Beast” plus backwards dodge roll… Ta Da! A more reliable vault.

As I've already said:

StaticWave wrote: »

1) If I want to attack someone after Streaking, I have to turn the camera around mid Streak. If I want to attack someone after Bow Vaulting, I am already facing them.

This comparison is meaningless lol. Both skills are good at something and worse at another thing. Doesn't mean they're both bad.

2) AoE immobilization isn't utility? Other scribing abilities may have immobilization, but they don't have it built into an escape tool.

3) Your mistake is to compare them on equal grounds. Vault is definitely not Streak, and will never be close to Streak as an offensive ability. I'm 100% with you on that. But to claim it's useless is a stretch. I can think of several builds right now that will make good use of Bow Vault as an escape/utility ability.

Trap Beast doesn't AoE immobilize, costs almost the same as Vault, and when combined with dodge roll will cost 1.5-2k more than Vault. You also don't remove snares after using dodge roll either, whereas Vault removes both snares and immobilization effects.

Alchimiste1 · May 15

StaticWave wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Here is a side by side comparison for the naysayers. After watching this please explain how vault is "now in line with streak and mistform" https://youtu.be/4AgJWdwRTN4?si=3vZaz38YwOPJQMTb

Now show that same demonstration but downhill, like this:

https://youtu.be/MB_bgv6ax04?si=DZJsg435SaMNOCH1

https://youtu.be/-uAnU0EYz84?si=qVrAjFNg1TRCtSU6

Looks fine to me. No fall damage, faster landing time, and better 2nd and 3rd effects.

Bruh. I usually agree with you static but come on now. That vault skill is trash if you can barely move back at a slight incline. Streak is leagues better. Not even comparable.

you also covered the same distance with 1 streak than with 2 vaults

StaticWave · May 15

Trinotops wrote: »

Sometimes? How often is sometimes? You're comparing Streak "sometimes" not moving you (which I'm not even sure I've even seen myself in my limited time playing Sorc) to Vault which doesn't work let's say 33% of time (for upward, downward, and even terrain). So are you really trying to tell me that Streak just doesn't move your character 33% of the time?

I'm telling you the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Streak doesn't function correctly sometimes and has similar issues as Vault. I've played Sorc for 5+ years and when Streak doesn't work it is noticeable. Definitely not 33% of the time, but noticeable enough to cost me a lot of fights.

Trinotops wrote: »

"Just as bad"? Really? You can clearly see in the videos in the thread that Vault is simply incapable of going up slopes. I know that Streak isn't perfect and can struggle on the steepest of slopes, but to say that they're even remotely close in terms of reliability is just completely wrong.

And I'm telling you why Vault is better when going downhill. If you're going to demonstrate how Vault is bad, then at least demonstrate when it's going downhill AND uphill, not only uphill to fit your narrative lol.

I've done a lot of fights around declining surfaces and I can't tell you how many times when I die from fall damage because Streak doesn't make your character move with the decline, but teleports you forward and you end up taking 8-10k fall damage. I can't tell you how many times Streaking up a very steep hill doesn't do anything and it's in fact better to just sprint up the hill lol. Both Vault and Streak have their share of unreliability, but to claim Vault is useless is just flat-out wrong.

StaticWave · May 15

So it appears that you do take fall damage while Bow Vaulting off a high surface, but that also depends on which surface. You also take less fall damage compared to normal Streaking. I made a clip on the PTS demonstrating Bow Vault and Streak's uphill and downhill traversing capabilities below:

https://youtu.be/qDpwO4AjIIY

Streak doesn't teleport you the full 15m distance when going up a really steep hill. Bow Vault of course doesn't either. Streaking down a very steep hill will put you in a rather long free-fall animation and you end up taking fall damage. Bow Vault doesn't put you in a long free-fall animation, and usually doesn't make you take fall damage, although it can sometimes happen but you take less free-fall damage anyway.

What I can take from this video is if you're expecting Bow Vault to be Streak, then you'll be disappointed. If you see the potential of Bow Vault, then you'll enjoy the skill. Not only is it better than Mist Form in terms of elusiveness, but it's also modifiable to your liking.

StaticWave · May 15

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Here is a side by side comparison for the naysayers. After watching this please explain how vault is "now in line with streak and mistform" https://youtu.be/4AgJWdwRTN4?si=3vZaz38YwOPJQMTb

Now show that same demonstration but downhill, like this:

https://youtu.be/MB_bgv6ax04?si=DZJsg435SaMNOCH1

https://youtu.be/-uAnU0EYz84?si=qVrAjFNg1TRCtSU6

Looks fine to me. No fall damage, faster landing time, and better 2nd and 3rd effects.

Bruh. I usually agree with you static but come on now. That vault skill is trash if you can barely move back at a slight incline. Streak is leagues better. Not even comparable.

you also covered the same distance with 1 streak than with 2 vaults

Nah only on fairly steep incline it starts behaving that way. Streak is also affected but not to that extent. They could rework the coding and it would be fine tbh.

TechMaybeHic · May 15

I liked how it was if they would have just added more invisible walls. Probably too many spots for them to address this patch