vault skill is basically worthless now

deadpool3431

I understand not wanting players to fling themselves out of bounds but it doesn't even vault you at all. Unless you are pointed downhill, or facing uphill rather.....the skill is absolutely worthless now. There is no combination that makes it a viable dps skill, there is no combination that makes it a viable defensive tool for pvp. I mean I guess you can role play as an acrobat that can only summersault standing still. The ramping cost was warranted but it's functionality is now gutted.

Necrotech_Master

its consistent with most traversal skills

you couldnt use streak, mist form, arcanist portals going uphill either, unless it was a small hill

sneakymitchell

Game is more boring even if it could frustrate me. Reason why game can be boring a lot of times if you can’t have fun with any skills or sets.

deadpool3431

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

its consistent with most traversal skills

you couldnt use streak, mist form, arcanist portals going uphill either, unless it was a small hill

No it has worse mobility than both. I've tested it against both skills. It also isn't as useful as either of those skills. With streak you're facing the direction you want to go, with mistform you have reduced incoming damage. With vault you have the mediocre scribing effects that aren't as effective as existing class skills. They could at least up the damage similar to the destro staff.

CameraBeardThePirate

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

its consistent with most traversal skills

you couldnt use streak, mist form, arcanist portals going uphill either, unless it was a small hill

No it has worse mobility than both. I've tested it against both skills. It also isn't as useful as either of those skills. With streak you're facing the direction you want to go, with mistform you have reduced incoming damage. With vault you have the mediocre scribing effects that aren't as effective as existing class skills. They could at least up the damage similar to the destro staff.

I like the (intended?) omission of Arcanist Portals, because they're undoubtedly the worst traversal tool in the game.

deadpool3431

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

its consistent with most traversal skills

you couldnt use streak, mist form, arcanist portals going uphill either, unless it was a small hill

No it has worse mobility than both. I've tested it against both skills. It also isn't as useful as either of those skills. With streak you're facing the direction you want to go, with mistform you have reduced incoming damage. With vault you have the mediocre scribing effects that aren't as effective as existing class skills. They could at least up the damage similar to the destro staff.

I like the (intended?) omission of Arcanist Portals, because they're undoubtedly the worst traversal tool in the game.

No I just haven't played archanist at all. Zero experience with the class. I made a toon , I intend to one day though.

Trinotops

It's more in line with Streak now, but yeah, it doesn't feel good that there are ledges you can get up with a basic jump but not Vault.

LunaFlora

ugh it was fun to jump up places with Vault when i was on pts last, like low walls or tents.

really wish the maximum height hadn't been changed

Mayrael

I agree that Vault has been nerfed a bit too harshly in terms of jump height, but it's still quite interesting skill to use.

Seraphayel

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

Turtle_Bot

Vault is fine (Just finished testing it myself).

The nerf to jump height while a small annoyance for some ledges, was necessary to prevent abusing the ability to leap up onto keep walls (which you know will 100% have been abused if it made it to live like that). The difference is barely noticeable outside of cliff riding and a few niche spots.
The only place I am noticing any hitches is specifically in one of my guild halls where there's raised platforms that create a sort of double landing when vault lands on them. However, on the default floor of that same house, it's completely smooth, no "double landing" hitch at all.

As for the options/effects the skill has, it's more than OK here.

Heal, Immobilize, Snare removal, Snare and roll dodge + fall damage reduction are all still good options.
Sure, there's not one clear overpowered option anymore (fall damage reduction, which at 50% was absurd), but there are still good options and the fall damage script kept the roll dodge cost stack reduction which is very powerful.
The disease damage is also an underrated choice for PvP too, especially on classes that don't inherently have access to disease damage in their kit. Inflicting defile is good for reducing enemy heals/shields while you kite and lay into them with ranged attacks at the same time.

The skill will still be a very strong (and fun) offensive + defensive kiting tool for PvP, it just won't be completely broken now by being infinitely spammable.

If anything needs fixing with vault, it's when it catches an invisible ceiling/wall mid air when trying to vault up ledges, but that was happening before the fixes that were made this patch.

StaticWave

Seraphayel wrote: »

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

I saw a clip of someone bow vaulting over a keep wall into the keep. Not sure if that was a bug but it would create a lot of issues for Cyrodiil

Seraphayel

StaticWave wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

I saw a clip of someone bow vaulting over a keep wall into the keep. Not sure if that was a bug but it would create a lot of issues for Cyrodiil

These are very random and specific scenarios you could have solved in many other ways and yes, in those cases it makes sense to adjust the skill. But it‘s not like you’re standing on flat ground and then click Vault and jump over a keep wall, no keep wall is so low that this could’ve worked.

LunaFlora

if a skill change only happens due to PvP i really wish it would be like "Whilst Battle Spirit is active the maximum height is decreased to x meters".

how did Vault even get people over Cyrodiil keep walls? they are really much higher than I've been able to get with Vault when i tested it last.

ApoAlaia

LunaFlora wrote: »

if a skill change only happens due to PvP i really wish it would be like "Whilst Battle Spirit is active the maximum height is decreased to x meters".

how did Vault even get people over Cyrodiil keep walls? they are really much higher than I've been able to get with Vault when i tested it last.

PvP might factor into it but PvE does too.

There are many places in the game that look 'climbable' but weird collisions are in place in order to prevent us from doing so (the rock formation along the left on the path from the Stonewastes wayshrine to the Blacksmiting survey site in Blackwood for instance), because Z'en forbid we don't go the long way around for the millionth time and beyond, the whole enrichment devised for us would be ruined if we somehow could take a straight route.

CameraBeardThePirate

Seraphayel wrote: »

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

It's definitely not just because of PvP.

Arcanist Portals were made super clunky (dare I say useless?) specifically because people were using it to skip sections of trials/dungeons to farm chests. I wouldn't be surprised if Vault had similar interactions.

ZOS is simply afraid of giving people traversal tools, and instead of keeping traversal tools fun to use and nerfing the specific areas in which they can be abused, they take the option of making the skill itself less fun to use.

ZDunlain

Seraphayel wrote: »

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

Don't be that kind of guy lol

Seraphayel

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

It's definitely not just because of PvP.

Arcanist Portals were made super clunky (dare I say useless?) specifically because people were using it to skip sections of trials/dungeons to farm chests. I wouldn't be surprised if Vault had similar interactions.

ZOS is simply afraid of giving people traversal tools, and instead of keeping traversal tools fun to use and nerfing the specific areas in which they can be abused, they take the option of making the skill itself less fun to use.

Vault and the portal are not comparable. For Vault everybody would need to slot Bow. Certainly doable, but takes time to adjust everything each time. It was 99% a PvP centric nerf. I give you the other 1% though.

CameraBeardThePirate

Seraphayel wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

It's definitely not just because of PvP.

Arcanist Portals were made super clunky (dare I say useless?) specifically because people were using it to skip sections of trials/dungeons to farm chests. I wouldn't be surprised if Vault had similar interactions.

ZOS is simply afraid of giving people traversal tools, and instead of keeping traversal tools fun to use and nerfing the specific areas in which they can be abused, they take the option of making the skill itself less fun to use.

Vault and the portal are not comparable. For Vault everybody would need to slot Bow. Certainly doable, but takes time to adjust everything each time. It was 99% a PvP centric nerf. I give you the other 1% though.

It would take literally the same amount of time to slot a bow and Vault as it would to slot Portal: approximately 10 seconds. There are addons AND the Armorer that automate the process.

Seraphayel

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

It's definitely not just because of PvP.

Arcanist Portals were made super clunky (dare I say useless?) specifically because people were using it to skip sections of trials/dungeons to farm chests. I wouldn't be surprised if Vault had similar interactions.

ZOS is simply afraid of giving people traversal tools, and instead of keeping traversal tools fun to use and nerfing the specific areas in which they can be abused, they take the option of making the skill itself less fun to use.

Vault and the portal are not comparable. For Vault everybody would need to slot Bow. Certainly doable, but takes time to adjust everything each time. It was 99% a PvP centric nerf. I give you the other 1% though.

It would take literally the same amount of time to slot a bow and Vault as it would to slot Portal: approximately 10 seconds. There are addons AND the Armorer that automate the process.

I‘m pretty sure you know how silly your comparison with portal is, but whatever. The skill is nerfed and that’s about it. They just removed any kind of individuality from Scribing with their recent iteration of the PTS, everything’s standardized and streamlined now to utter boredom. Guess this is just the future of the game. Rejoice and have fun where everything plays the same and everything feels the same.

StaticWave

Seraphayel wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Look, another fun skill ruined because of some hypothetical concerns in PvP.

It's definitely not just because of PvP.

Arcanist Portals were made super clunky (dare I say useless?) specifically because people were using it to skip sections of trials/dungeons to farm chests. I wouldn't be surprised if Vault had similar interactions.

ZOS is simply afraid of giving people traversal tools, and instead of keeping traversal tools fun to use and nerfing the specific areas in which they can be abused, they take the option of making the skill itself less fun to use.

Vault and the portal are not comparable. For Vault everybody would need to slot Bow. Certainly doable, but takes time to adjust everything each time. It was 99% a PvP centric nerf. I give you the other 1% though.

It would take literally the same amount of time to slot a bow and Vault as it would to slot Portal: approximately 10 seconds. There are addons AND the Armorer that automate the process.

I‘m pretty sure you know how silly your comparison with portal is, but whatever. The skill is nerfed and that’s about it. They just removed any kind of individuality from Scribing with their recent iteration of the PTS, everything’s standardized and streamlined now to utter boredom. Guess this is just the future of the game. Rejoice and have fun where everything plays the same and everything feels the same.

If Vault wasn’t nerfed then you’d see a lot of ppl using it. When ppl see how strong it was defensively, more ppl would hop on and then everything would feel the same too because everyone is playing it. Such is also the case for Oblivion damage on Wield Soul which you wanted to keep.

People generally want to min max their build. If you want any semblance of diversity, you need to make skills not too strong individually, or people will have a definite reason to pick 1 specific skill because it’s stronger than the rest.

Trinotops

It's actually quite a bit worse than other traversal skills now. It can't even go up an incline. Yes, it had too much verticality to it before but it's just too little now.
https://youtu.be/uTakZC8WWhw

Theist_VII

Trinotops wrote: »

It's actually quite a bit worse than other traversal skills now. It can't even go up an incline. Yes, it had too much verticality to it before but it's just too little now.
https://youtu.be/uTakZC8WWhw

Wow, that’s actually horrible. 🥶

i11ionward

Trinotops wrote: »

It's actually quite a bit worse than other traversal skills now. It can't even go up an incline. Yes, it had too much verticality to it before but it's just too little now.
https://youtu.be/uTakZC8WWhw

Now it looks terrible.
The Vault should definitely have a height adjustment like the Streak.

Turtle_Bot

Trinotops wrote: »

It's actually quite a bit worse than other traversal skills now. It can't even go up an incline. Yes, it had too much verticality to it before but it's just too little now.
https://youtu.be/uTakZC8WWhw

Vault had this issue before theses latest changes (particularly noticeable going up stairs). While it's more pronounced now with the lowered angle of the leap arch, it is nothing new that was created by the changes, it always existed with the skill.

It's part of the limitations ZOS has put on all of the "Blink"/"Leap" skills to try and prevent being able to jump onto areas that players shouldn't be able to reach via those skills.

You showed streak going smoothly up that same incline, but there are countless pebbles/twigs throughout tamriel that you can easily walk over, yet they stop streak in its tracks and have done for a long time while never being fixed. So it's an issue with all teleports, not just vault.

Not going to be an easy fix for this, because there's so many unique/niche scenarios where the skill should function while legitimately having the caster at varying heights above the terrain (leaping a narrow ravine), but there are also so many abusable uses (leaping into a closed keep/inaccessible area) for these same scenarios for skills like these as well.

Fix smoothness by increasing the height back and preventing the invisible wall clipping and players will just abuse the skill to get into areas they should not be able to access, but if they leave it in this "fixed" state and it becomes clunky for more situations. I don't envy ZOS trying to get this one right, but preventing abuse of the skill to gain an unfair advantage via unintended interactions should always be top priority because we all know what happens when it isn't fixed/top priority (tarnished, savage werewolf, DK standard, etc, etc.).

Honestly, this could just be a case of ZOS having to go through and remove/lower all of the problematic vault launch points throughout the game and then come back and revert the lowered height change on vault once that's all fixed, but that will take a long time to find and fix all of those vault points and players will always just find more of them as time goes on.

StaticWave

Nah, it's not terrible if we strictly talk about the mobility aspect. Vault may be worse than Streak/BoL going up hill but it's definitely better going downhill. Check this:

https://youtu.be/MB_bgv6ax04

When going downhill with Vault you don't take fall damage and you land on the ground faster. Here's another example with more pronounced fall damage immunity:

https://youtu.be/-uAnU0EYz84

If we expand the discussion and compare Streak's effects with Vault you can see Vault is better than Streak/BoL. For example look at this:






Streak: does 4.3k damage, has AoE unblockable stun, and moves 15m in front

Vault: does 2.5k dmg, immobilizes enemies, cleanses 3 snares or immobilization effects, and applies Major Evasion

ToRelax

StaticWave wrote: »

Streak: does 4.3k damage, has AoE unblockable stun, and moves 15m in front

Vault: does 2.5k dmg, immobilizes enemies, cleanses 3 snares or immobilization effects, and applies Major Evasion

Maybe for your playstyle that favours Vault. It certainly is strong as a utility skill. But unblockable undodgeable stuns with damage attached are just way too powerful for me to trade away like that.

StaticWave

ToRelax wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Streak: does 4.3k damage, has AoE unblockable stun, and moves 15m in front

Vault: does 2.5k dmg, immobilizes enemies, cleanses 3 snares or immobilization effects, and applies Major Evasion

Maybe for your playstyle that favours Vault. It certainly is strong as a utility skill. But unblockable undodgeable stuns with damage attached are just way too powerful for me to trade away like that.

I'm not trading it either, but it's definitely a good option for non Sorcs to use compared to Mist Form

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Nah, it's not terrible if we strictly talk about the mobility aspect. Vault may be worse than Streak/BoL going up hill but it's definitely better going downhill. Check this:

https://youtu.be/MB_bgv6ax04

When going downhill with Vault you don't take fall damage and you land on the ground faster. Here's another example with more pronounced fall damage immunity:

https://youtu.be/-uAnU0EYz84

If we expand the discussion and compare Streak's effects with Vault you can see Vault is better than Streak/BoL. For example look at this:

Streak: does 4.3k damage, has AoE unblockable stun, and moves 15m in front

Vault: does 2.5k dmg, immobilizes enemies, cleanses 3 snares or immobilization effects, and applies Major Evasion

Spoiler'd most of the quote to save space.

Yep, Streak is horrendous to use when trying to go down hill (even tiny gradual slopes). The time you save/distance you create by using streak on a downwards slope, gets more than eaten up by the forced stun-lock of and damage dealt to your character while you slowly fall down after streaking.

All in all, Vault is 100% an ability that is on par with streak (and ahead of BoL) for both mobility and utility and it is something that all classes have access to now via a weapon that is in a good spot overall (bow) even without this ability. I'm expecting to see a lot of it in PvP once people have finished up the quest and obtained the grimoires/scripts.

Fun fact, you can run minor expedition instead of evasion and have access to both minor and major expedition using only a single bar slot.

NordSwordnBoard

Yes blame pvp. It's been part of the game for ten years [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Dracane

StaticWave wrote: »

If we expand the discussion and compare Streak's effects with Vault you can see Vault is better than Streak/BoL. For example look at this:






Streak: does 4.3k damage, has AoE unblockable stun, and moves 15m in front

Vault: does 2.5k dmg, immobilizes enemies, cleanses 3 snares or immobilization effects, and applies Major Evasion

That's nothing new. ZoS has been trying to hand out Sorcerer skills to everyone over the years, most of the time better than Streak. Vampire Mist is also a significantly better version than Streak which not only absorbs ranged attacks, but also grants expedition and evasion, potentially freeing up bar space.

I have been contemplating to drop Streak in favor of Mist for pvp, with the stun being the primary reason to use it. Might change when spell scribing allows stuns on Wield Soul.