Why are damage dealer werewolves putting enemies on crowd control immunity?

Erickson9610 · May 4

The changes to Roar and Piercing Howl necessitate damage dealers to cast an AoE fear ability once every 10 seconds in order to maintain optimal DPS, but this prevents tanks from chaining in enemies.

Not only is the change to Roar and Piercing Howl losing damage dealer werewolves a substantial amount of DPS (for instance, I've lost 7k DPS compared to Live due to the nerfs and the added skill in the rotation) but it's also going to keep werewolves out of serious PvE groups, because the tank(s) will not tolerate damage dealers putting enemies on crowd control immunity. This is really bad for werewolf damage dealers who are already struggling to compete with other playstyles.

If Werewolf must use 5 skills, please give them a Grimoire they can swap Roar out with. It's not good game design to have damage dealers use a skill that interferes with the job of tanks.

Soarora · May 4

Don’t roar until the adds are grouped up. A good tank should be able to group them pretty quickly. Also depends on the radius, if you stand in the melee trash and roar, will it stun far enemies? I think warden and sorc pets pose a much bigger problem than werewolf in terms of trash management.

Erickson9610 · May 4

Soarora wrote: »

Don’t roar until the adds are grouped up. A good tank should be able to group them pretty quickly. Also depends on the radius, if you stand in the melee trash and roar, will it stun far enemies? I think warden and sorc pets pose a much bigger problem than werewolf in terms of trash management.

In principle, damage dealer skills shouldn't adversely affect a tank's ability to tank. While Sorcerer and Warden pets may be an issue, this doesn't discount from the problem with Roar and how it's now needed for damage dealing, where it wasn't before.

If Terrified was reworked into a self/group buff, rather than an enemy debuff, this would mitigate some of the problems — but even still, that's unnecessarily removing damage from Piercing Howl for anyone who uses the wrong morph of Roar, and giving very little in return. The changes to Roar and Piercing Howl should be reversed because it's making the rotation more complicated and the result is nerfed DPS.

Only a tank should be putting enemies on crowd control immunity. I don't know any werewolf players who enjoy the idea of being forced into using more skills that harm their already-lacking sustain and which potentially cause issues with groups, only to get a maximum of 5% less damage than they did before for each hit of their main spammable.

Skoomah · May 5

I've resigned myself to the nerfs. So I'm playing as much werewolf as possible before the nerfs happen next patch. No use fighting ZOS over changes they probably dead set on happening.

Vulkunne · May 7

I've already moved my last WWs over to Vamp sadly. There's no use trying to build for things they won't fix. Besides vamp is probably better anyways, least for now lol.

Theist_VII · May 7

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've already moved my last WWs over to Vamp sadly. There's no use trying to build for things they won't fix. Besides vamp is probably better anyways, least for now lol.

Building an actual Vampire is terrible.

If you were to use Oakensoul as either a Vampire using their entire skill line or a Werewolf, it’s night and day, not to say Werewolf is in a great spot, but Vampire is in a worse one and nobody talks about it because it has a few things that are over-performing on builds that avoid the active skill line altogether.

Panderbander · May 7

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've already moved my last WWs over to Vamp sadly. There's no use trying to build for things they won't fix. Besides vamp is probably better anyways, least for now lol.

Building an actual Vampire is terrible.

If you were to use Oakensoul as either a Vampire using their entire skill line or a Werewolf, it’s night and day, not to say Werewolf is in a great spot, but Vampire is in a worse one and nobody talks about it because it has a few things that are over-performing on builds that avoid the active skill line altogether.

The thing is, vampire is (or should be) designed with the fact in mind that you can use any skill in the game other than werewolf skills as a vampire, just like weapon lines or guild lines. It was never intended to be, and never should be, a full build skill line.

Werewolf is just the opposite and changes like these aren't going to be something werewolves can work around by swapping to a better skill because we aren't allowed to do so.

Theist_VII · May 7

Panderbander wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

I've already moved my last WWs over to Vamp sadly. There's no use trying to build for things they won't fix. Besides vamp is probably better anyways, least for now lol.

Building an actual Vampire is terrible.

If you were to use Oakensoul as either a Vampire using their entire skill line or a Werewolf, it’s night and day, not to say Werewolf is in a great spot, but Vampire is in a worse one and nobody talks about it because it has a few things that are over-performing on builds that avoid the active skill line altogether.

The thing is, vampire is (or should be) designed with the fact in mind that you can use any skill in the game other than werewolf skills as a vampire, just like weapon lines or guild lines. It was never intended to be, and never should be, a full build skill line.

Werewolf is just the opposite and changes like these aren't going to be something werewolves can work around by swapping to a better skill because we aren't allowed to do so.

Yet some classes can’t synergize well with the Vampire passives whatsoever. You don’t see wolves in PvE, but do you see Vampires either?

You’ve said that you shouldn’t be able to make a full Vampire build using their skill line… why?

Without Undeath, there would be less Vampires than the already rather small amount of Werewolves you see running around.

Most Vampire skills are horrid. Have you ever looked at the stun they have? Or the tether that used to be a hard CC that ranged DDs had access to? Perhaps the constant health siphon is appealing to you? There are only two good skills, and one good morph of the ultimate.

Im just saying, that although Wolf needs help, and I’ve advocated for that on several threads this cycle… it is extremely negligent to assume that the grass is greener for Vampire when they don’t have any identity within the game.

Both curses need a complete overhaul and identity injection, because there is no area where either are ahead of the curve.

sneakymitchell · May 7

Yea having a stun to do dps better not good. You just trying be a nightblade but not. Should just give 10% boost in skills damage.

Panderbander · May 7

Let's please stay on topic. Every single werewolf thread ends up with someone bringing up vampire and, while I get it, it's comparing apples and oranges. Create a vampire thread instead if you want.

Insofar as these changes go they will be further disincentivizing the least flexible build in the game for any content because it will not synergize well with anyone else, let alone other werewolves.

Vulkunne · May 8

Panderbander wrote: »

Let's please stay on topic. Every single werewolf thread ends up with someone bringing up vampire and, while I get it, it's comparing apples and oranges. Create a vampire thread instead if you want.

Insofar as these changes go they will be further disincentivizing the least flexible build in the game for any content because it will not synergize well with anyone else, let alone other werewolves.

I'm assuming your post is kind of a response to me and probably the other guy too bringing up vamps in this conversation. Ok. If you look at what I had said, it's not that I'm trying to change the conversation from WW to Vamp. As I had said earlier, perhaps without saying it, I moved my WW's over to Vamp. So, they were WW but now due to the issues with WW, which have not been resolved, I'm finding it all around better to go with a alternative that works well and doesn't force me to jump thru as many hoops as making a WW build can do. As it were, over time I've had several WW builds. I've tried to maintain a happy balance between these two types of characters. There's one dungeon, I wanna "Stone Garden" maybe where they have those large WWs and I love doing that run. In fact, if you want to know the truth I really wish WW could be corrected to be more like those WWs in terms of size and power. I hope you can see what I mean. Because playing a WW on that run, even temporarily, and then going back to what we have currently is kind of disappointing.

Its like the current version of WWs are about the size of a normal person.

And in terms of power they really aren't that much stronger than a good Vamp build. That's why at least I feel, its important to consider not just Vamp but other transformation abilities like Necro Ult, to see what is possible and to not keep umm kind of cloning passive abilities between classes and transformations. In other words, Vamp needs to be strong as it were but I really feel that WW is not. There are other issues I've had with WW such as being in PvP, including BGs, and stuck in formation, even after death... even after respawn. Stuck and I can't disengage or have the transformation timer run out.

So I love using WW abilities too however because of the issues and the bugs and the semantics with what/how I can use skills, I am forced to bring Vamp into the conversation but only as an alternative and to highlight the differences between these two things. As you said, this has been brought up on other threads and the reason for that is because other players also feel the same, and we can't pretend that the alternative doesn't exist. It serves no one to just ignore the alternatives because it seems for the here and now ZOS is sort of out of ideas for how to approach a WW restructure atm, same as with Necro. Sometimes it takes time to sort these things out but the only way to do that, the only way forward for them and us is collaboration on what we have and to be able to communicate how things are. For that matter there 'are' other WW threads out there to contribute to as well. I chose to post in this one to try and bring attention to how bad things are with WW as it is now.

Staying silent isn't going to help things but anymore, I'm really not sure talking about it will do much either so then that leaves us with the best, most reliable alternative which can only be vampire or non-vamp/WW. I have experienced significantly fewer problems playing Vamp, though its clearly not quite the same experience.

Panderbander · May 8

Vulkunne wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Let's please stay on topic. Every single werewolf thread ends up with someone bringing up vampire and, while I get it, it's comparing apples and oranges. Create a vampire thread instead if you want.

Insofar as these changes go they will be further disincentivizing the least flexible build in the game for any content because it will not synergize well with anyone else, let alone other werewolves.

Well now hold on a sec 'please'...

I'm assuming your post is kind of a response to me and probably the other guy too bringing up vamps in this conversation. Ok. If you look at what I had said, its not that I'm trying to umm change the conversation from WW to Vamp. As I had said earlier, perhaps without saying it, I moved my WW's over to Vamp. So they were WW but now due to the issues with WW, which have not been resolved, I'm finding it all around better to go with a platform that works well and doesn't force me to jump thru as many hoops as making a WW build can do.

As it were, over time I've had several WW builds. I've tried to maintain a happy balance between these two types of characters. There's one dungeon, I wanna "Stone Garden" maybe where they have those large WWs and I love doing that run. In fact, if you want to know the truth I really wish WW could be corrected to be more like those WWs in terms of size and power. I hope you can see what I mean. Because playing a WW on that run, even temporarily, and then going back to what we have currently is kind of disappointing.

Its like the current version of WWs are about the size of a normal person. And in terms of power they really aren't that much stronger than a good Vamp build. That's why at least I feel, its important to consider not just Vamp but other transformation abilities like Necro Ult, to see what is possible and to not keep umm kind of cloning passive abilities between classes and transformations. In other words, Vamp needs to be strong as it were but I really feel that WW is not. There are other issues I've had with WW such as being in PvP, including BGs, and stuck in formation, even after death... even after respawn. Stuck and I can't disengage or have the transformation timer run out.

So I look to WW too but because of the issues and the bugs and the semantics with the skills, I am forced to bring Vamp into the conversation. As are many other players because we have no real alternative and we can't pretend it doesn't exist. We shouldn't people to not talk about the alternatives when the only real option is an alternative because it seems ZOS is sort of out of ideas for how to approach a WW restructure atm, same as with Necro. And that's fine, sometimes it takes time to sort these things out but the only way to do that, the only way forward for them and us is collaboration on what we have and to be able to communicate how things are. Staying silent isn't going to help things but anymore, I'm really not sure talking about will either so then that leaves us with the best, most reliable alternative which can only be vampire or non-vamp/WW.

I was not referencing you, but thank you for your cogent response.

Skoomah · May 8

Vulkunne wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Let's please stay on topic. Every single werewolf thread ends up with someone bringing up vampire and, while I get it, it's comparing apples and oranges. Create a vampire thread instead if you want.

Insofar as these changes go they will be further disincentivizing the least flexible build in the game for any content because it will not synergize well with anyone else, let alone other werewolves.

I'm assuming your post is kind of a response to me and probably the other guy too bringing up vamps in this conversation. Ok. If you look at what I had said, it's not that I'm trying to change the conversation from WW to Vamp. As I had said earlier, perhaps without saying it, I moved my WW's over to Vamp. So, they were WW but now due to the issues with WW, which have not been resolved, I'm finding it all around better to go with a alternative that works well and doesn't force me to jump thru as many hoops as making a WW build can do. As it were, over time I've had several WW builds. I've tried to maintain a happy balance between these two types of characters. There's one dungeon, I wanna "Stone Garden" maybe where they have those large WWs and I love doing that run. In fact, if you want to know the truth I really wish WW could be corrected to be more like those WWs in terms of size and power. I hope you can see what I mean. Because playing a WW on that run, even temporarily, and then going back to what we have currently is kind of disappointing.

Its like the current version of WWs are about the size of a normal person. And in terms of power they really aren't that much stronger than a good Vamp build. That's why at least I feel, its important to consider not just Vamp but other transformation abilities like Necro Ult, to see what is possible and to not keep umm kind of cloning passive abilities between classes and transformations. In other words, Vamp needs to be strong as it were but I really feel that WW is not. There are other issues I've had with WW such as being in PvP, including BGs, and stuck in formation, even after death... even after respawn. Stuck and I can't disengage or have the transformation timer run out.

So I love using WW abilities too however because of the issues and the bugs and the semantics with what/how I can use skills, I am forced to bring Vamp into the conversation but only as an alternative and to highlight the differences between these two things. As you said, this has been brought up on other threads and the reason for that is because other players also feel the same, and we can't pretend that the alternative doesn't exist. It serves no one to just ignore the alternatives because it seems for the here and now ZOS is sort of out of ideas for how to approach a WW restructure atm, same as with Necro. Sometimes it takes time to sort these things out but the only way to do that, the only way forward for them and us is collaboration on what we have and to be able to communicate how things are. For that matter there 'are' other WW threads out there to contribute to as well. I chose to post in this one to try and bring attention to how bad things are with WW as it is now.

Staying silent isn't going to help things but anymore, I'm really not sure talking about it will do much either so then that leaves us with the best, most reliable alternative which can only be vampire or non-vamp/WW. I have experienced significantly fewer problems playing Vamp, though its clearly not quite the same experience.

Stay on topic please. This thread is about werewolf. Advocate for vampire and other transformations elsewhere please.

Vulkunne · May 8

Skoomah wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Let's please stay on topic. Every single werewolf thread ends up with someone bringing up vampire and, while I get it, it's comparing apples and oranges. Create a vampire thread instead if you want.

Insofar as these changes go they will be further disincentivizing the least flexible build in the game for any content because it will not synergize well with anyone else, let alone other werewolves.

I'm assuming your post is kind of a response to me and probably the other guy too bringing up vamps in this conversation. Ok. If you look at what I had said, it's not that I'm trying to change the conversation from WW to Vamp. As I had said earlier, perhaps without saying it, I moved my WW's over to Vamp. So, they were WW but now due to the issues with WW, which have not been resolved, I'm finding it all around better to go with a alternative that works well and doesn't force me to jump thru as many hoops as making a WW build can do. As it were, over time I've had several WW builds. I've tried to maintain a happy balance between these two types of characters. There's one dungeon, I wanna "Stone Garden" maybe where they have those large WWs and I love doing that run. In fact, if you want to know the truth I really wish WW could be corrected to be more like those WWs in terms of size and power. I hope you can see what I mean. Because playing a WW on that run, even temporarily, and then going back to what we have currently is kind of disappointing.

Its like the current version of WWs are about the size of a normal person. And in terms of power they really aren't that much stronger than a good Vamp build. That's why at least I feel, its important to consider not just Vamp but other transformation abilities like Necro Ult, to see what is possible and to not keep umm kind of cloning passive abilities between classes and transformations. In other words, Vamp needs to be strong as it were but I really feel that WW is not. There are other issues I've had with WW such as being in PvP, including BGs, and stuck in formation, even after death... even after respawn. Stuck and I can't disengage or have the transformation timer run out.

So I love using WW abilities too however because of the issues and the bugs and the semantics with what/how I can use skills, I am forced to bring Vamp into the conversation but only as an alternative and to highlight the differences between these two things. As you said, this has been brought up on other threads and the reason for that is because other players also feel the same, and we can't pretend that the alternative doesn't exist. It serves no one to just ignore the alternatives because it seems for the here and now ZOS is sort of out of ideas for how to approach a WW restructure atm, same as with Necro. Sometimes it takes time to sort these things out but the only way to do that, the only way forward for them and us is collaboration on what we have and to be able to communicate how things are. For that matter there 'are' other WW threads out there to contribute to as well. I chose to post in this one to try and bring attention to how bad things are with WW as it is now.

Staying silent isn't going to help things but anymore, I'm really not sure talking about it will do much either so then that leaves us with the best, most reliable alternative which can only be vampire or non-vamp/WW. I have experienced significantly fewer problems playing Vamp, though its clearly not quite the same experience.

Stay on topic please. This thread is about werewolf. Advocate for vampire and other transformations elsewhere please.

We both agree there are problems with WW and are moving on because of it...

This thread is about issues with WW skills not upcoming patch changes. My original post is about me experiencing similar issues, as I've said before in other threads as well as my intention of switching to something else, in this case vamp ability because I'm tired of waiting for these problems to get fixed. My second reply was an attempt to explain the rational behind my original post, with me going into depth about how I've used WW in the past and changes that I too would like to see happen to WW form. Your posts express grief about the upcoming nerfs, which is similar to mine because I'm reacting to the same thing just talking about how.

You're talking about what, the nerfs, the status of WW, I am talking about the how, the alternatives, the status of WW. I don't think its fair or very professional to just tell someone they're off topic for having a different answer to the same question. You resigned yourself to the nerfs right? WW nerfs... playing as much WW as you can now because you won't be able to later... ok so I resigned myself to start playing something else because of the current issues, which would include prior nerfs and inherit from upcoming ones as well.

Specifically my second reply was to the other two posters on here and not trying to add or subtract from any other conversation people are having, I was talking to them because they replied to me, more or less.