Personally I think this is because they all felt threatened by Jyggalag, but only Mora was fearing Ithelia. And while he managed to convince 3 other princes about her danger, rest of them.... they didn't buy what he was selling.

Trejgon wrote: »

Personally I think this is because they all felt threatened by Jyggalag, but only Mora was fearing Ithelia. And while he managed to convince 3 other princes about her danger, rest of them.... they didn't buy what he was selling.

From what I understood. it was all except Vermina and Peryite that didn't give their say. I can really not think of any other reason why they would be the only two to be pulled aside to try and convince them. I read that subtext as they being there because they were the only two that needed to be convinced.

Faulgor wrote: »

It's possible that only Mora was aware of what Ithelia could do, given his sphere. And he just didn't manage to convince all his peers.
Jyggalagg on the other hand never hid his intentions for order. His threat was apparent to everyone.

Maybe.

Now that I think about it, I realized that from my perspective, the only two that weren't on board were Vaermina and Peryite. They were the only two pulled aside in the cutscenes. So it stands to my reason that they were the only two left that needed to be convinced.

My logic is that if it takes unanimous decision and you're only pulling 2 aside, that means everyone else but those two have already agreed. So my speculations is on a combination of "why did those two, IN PARTICULAR, needed to be convinced?" + "was Jyggolag so much more of an immediate threat that there was less resistance to the mental sealing that deadric princes tend to use?"

Faulgor wrote: »

It's possible that only Mora was aware of what Ithelia could do, given his sphere. And he just didn't manage to convince all his peers.

Ithelia was kicking the sand in Mora's sandbox, and that made it personal for Mora. It became an issue of domination, and Mora won. For a while.

I expect that most of the Princes didn't care one way or another, since Ithelia was not in their sandbox. I sense there is not a lot of esprit de corps in the ranks of the Daedric Princes. Only Peryite and Vermina took umbrage. For political reasons, no doubt.

Valpro wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

It's possible that only Mora was aware of what Ithelia could do, given his sphere. And he just didn't manage to convince all his peers.

Ithelia was kicking the sand in Mora's sandbox, and that made it personal for Mora. It became an issue of domination, and Mora won. For a while.

I expect that most of the Princes didn't care one way or another, since Ithelia was not in their sandbox. I sense there is not a lot of esprit de corps in the ranks of the Daedric Princes. Only Peryite and Vermina took umbrage. For political reasons, no doubt.

Well that's kind of the issue. The Story of necrom itsellf implies that most danger princesses did care. Like a big part of the necrom story is circumventing

The pact primordial which says that a desert prince cannot invade another desert Prince's realm without unanimous decision among all other princes.

I'm going to assume that the pact primordial functions as described: in order to interfere directly with another daedric you need unanimous decision. Doesn't necessarily mean the princes who say yeah do it are going to contribute too much. Given the prequel quest in game shows us that

there were at minimum three princes very much inclined to directly assist Mora in neutralizing The partying question: Boethia Azurah, and Mephala.

That's just what we've been told so far.

My impression of that "pact" is that it is more "guidelines" than an actual "rule". Certain Princes have definite "boundary issues". They seem to follow the "pact" when it suits them, and they enforce it when it becomes enough of an annoyance.

The biggest observation that I have is that the Princes play off each other and join forces or oppose each other for reasons of "motivated self interest". If they are not motivated, they aren't interested. Sometimes, even when they are interested, they are not really motivated.

As a general rule, I don't think the Princes pay all that much attention to what is going on. Outside of Mundus, of course, about which the known Princes seem far to interested. Everything to them is a toy, and if they are not playing with that toy, they are off playing with another toy that interests them more. When they are not playing with Mundus, I don't think they really care about what is happening elsewhere and focus on their own interests.

It would be easy for me to see that Princes could be indifferent to what Mora was doing and what was going on with Ithelia. Not paying attention. Didn't care. Agreement in principle. Absorbed in whatever it is that they wanted to do that was not listening to Mora ramble on about things.

The Princes are immortal and timeless. They have egos to match. They know that Mora cannot kill Ithelia. The entire concept is foreign to them. We don't even fully understand them, but what if the only thing that would raise a Daedric eyebrow is the threat that Mora described disrupted the precious Mundus Toy too much. Then they might be interested and motivated. Otherwise, it seems to me that their immortal nature and Daedric-sized ego would prevent them from taking an interest in any "doomsday" ramblings about reality. Disinterested and unmotivated, content to just let Mora do whatever he wants, especially if he shuts up.

Vermina's relem is the world of dreams. What are dream? Possebiletys, potential paths to follow. At least some of them are.
Ithelia as the prince of paths and mistress of the untraveled road might have some overlap with those dreams. Her presence might give the dreams more and stronger variants and therefor powering Vermina? So Vermina might profit from Ithelia beeing around. In conclusion that might be a reason Vermina does mind Ithelia beeing taken out.

Elsonso wrote: »

ThelerisTelvanni wrote: »

Vermina's relem is the world of dreams. What are dream? Possebiletys, potential paths to follow. At least some of them are.
Ithelia as the prince of paths and mistress of the untraveled road might have some overlap with those dreams. Her presence might give the dreams more and stronger variants and therefor powering Vermina? So Vermina might profit from Ithelia beeing around. In conclusion that might be a reason Vermina does mind Ithelia beeing taken out.

It makes sense that Vermina and Peryite are very concerned about what happens to Mundus. Their livelihood depends on resources primarily sourced from Mundus. Vermina is probably the prince with the most to lose if something tragically final happens to Nirn.

Oddly enough, the Plane Meld did not seem to bother Vermina very much. Merging Nirn with Coldharbour and turning all of the mortals into dreamless husks should be Vermina's personal nightmare. Vermina should have been right at the front of the fight to save Nirn, right? Yeah, that was Meridia. The Prince who invaded Coldharbour in violation of the "pact". I don't even recall so much as a word of encouragement from Vermina during the whole thing.

So, no, I doubt that Ithelia's impact on Mundus was of any concern to Vermina. If she can't get worked up over the Plane Meld, then whatever the Prince of Paths would do to Nirn is probably a yawn.

I think the whole issue for Vermina about Ithelia is really about Mora. Specifically, what Mora intended to do. I think it was all about what Mora wanted to do to Vermina that bothered Vermina.

This is a good point. Maybe her exclamation “we cant do this to another Prince!” wasn’t about putting Ithelia away but about removing the memory of her from everyone’s minds. Everyone still remembers Jyggalag, but he got put away in a different way.

Trejgon wrote: »

Valpro wrote: »

Well that's kind of the issue. The Story of necrom itsellf implies that most danger princesses did care. Like a big part of the necrom story is circumventing

The pact primordial which says that a desert prince cannot invade another desert Prince's realm without unanimous decision among all other princes.

I will take here a moment to point out that

the pact primordial

Did not bother Nocturnal in summerset story at all. (she invaded coloured rooms and nearly managed to get rid of Meridia all together). And there was no unanimous decision for that action either, because we know that at the very least the rest of triad was by that point very opposed to anything Nocturnal would be doing.

The Pact Primordial prevents Princes from personally manifesting in another Prince's realm without an invitation (this is implied by the wording in the book and Scruut specifically says "No Prince may physically intrude in another's realm."). Meridia merely says "...How dare they! The triad dares to invade my sacred realm?" which leaves open the possibility that the Triad sent mortal agents, as mortals are not bound by the Pact and may enter a Prince's realm without permission.

The Greymarch is an edge case because it is, for all intents and purposes, an invasion, except that the Shivering Isles are, technically, Jyggalag's own realm.

Valpro wrote: »

When I look at their spheres and how they are said to have control over their spheres, they seem similar enough in what they can do, that they both should pose a terribly similar level of threat. So why unanimous decision to.... disrupt the capacity of each of those Daedric Princes not uniform?

Jyggalag was threatening every other Prince with the expansion of his domain. He says during "The End of Order" in Oblivion: "Once, I ruled this Realm, a world of perfect Order. My dominion expanded across the seas of Oblivion with each passing era. The other Princes, fearful of my power, cursed me with Madness, doomed me to live as Sheogorath, a broken soul reigning in a broken land."

Jyggalag was unanimously targeted because he was directly threatening the other Princes, i.e., because of what he had done and was doing. Ithelia was not, but Mora was concerned about what she could do, which is why the decision was not unanimous.

By the way anyone with a an interest in the wider elder scrolls lore community, Drewmora on Youtube has a video called "Hermaus Mora was lying to us" One of these sections near the end is called "Ithelia, Sheogorath, and Jyggalag."

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

my understanding of the way that ithelia happened, is that peryite and vaermina objected because mora wanted to mess with memories, in which they believed that memory is sort of sacrosanct or something that shouldnt be messed with

like others suggested, i think jyggalag was more imminent threat because he was actively invading other realms of oblivion, while for ithelia, the only lore we have on it is coming from mora himself

i think it was theorized that ithelia wasnt sealed away until some time in the merethic era, which is kind of hinted at in the gold road prologue quest

in this quest you see visions of the past which included several mortal races (including an orc, which as far as im aware didnt become a thing until after the fall of trinimac) acting as vessels for the daedric princes

As a result of this I am slowly coming to the conclusion that. Linear time (and the other rules of reality that govern the Mundus) came into being slowly. That's a whole other Lore thread, though. Hmmm....