Jygallag, Ithelia, and "Unanimous Decision" - Necrom Ending Discussion

Valpro

Seeing as a new Daedric Prince hasn't been introduced to canon since the shivering Isles DLC, I find this reoccurring question in my mind.

When it came to rendering the two days of princes in question, inert, why was there unanimous decision for Jygallag, but not for Ithelia? When I look at their spheres and how they are said to have control over their spheres, they seem similar enough in what they can do, that they both should pose a terribly similar level of threat. So why unanimous decision to.... disrupt the capacity of each of those Daedric Princes not uniform?

As an aside, I do notice that when they do decide to get rid of a Daedric Prince, they don't ever kill them. It looks like they disrupt their ability to think properly. And Jygallag's case, they made him crazy. In Ithelia's they made every one forget her, including her. If I'm understanding what's being explained through the marketing and stuff properly, even she doesn't remember who she is. My mind does start to wander towards, "why that brand of subjagation?" But that's for a different lore thread.

The speculation on this one is: "Why unanimous decision for one and not the other?"

Soarora

I had the same question. Why does Vaermina hate what happened to Ithelia but not Jyggalag? It can’t be that Ithelia happened first unless she remembers the event but not the Prince. Maybe because Jyggalag actively threatened to invade all their realms while Ithelia didn’t? I feel like a Jyggalag easter egg would’ve smoothed things out more and I hope he isn’t the truly forgotten one. Still hoping for him to come back in TES6.

Trejgon

Personally I think this is because they all felt threatened by Jyggalag, but only Mora was fearing Ithelia. And while he managed to convince 3 other princes about her danger, rest of them.... they didn't buy what he was selling.

Faulgor

It's possible that only Mora was aware of what Ithelia could do, given his sphere. And he just didn't manage to convince all his peers.
Jyggalagg on the other hand never hid his intentions for order. His threat was apparent to everyone.

Maybe.

Valpro

Trejgon wrote: »

Personally I think this is because they all felt threatened by Jyggalag, but only Mora was fearing Ithelia. And while he managed to convince 3 other princes about her danger, rest of them.... they didn't buy what he was selling.

From what I understood. it was all except Vermina and Peryite that didn't give their say. I can really not think of any other reason why they would be the only two to be pulled aside to try and convince them. I read that subtext as they being there because they were the only two that needed to be convinced.

Faulgor wrote: »

It's possible that only Mora was aware of what Ithelia could do, given his sphere. And he just didn't manage to convince all his peers.
Jyggalagg on the other hand never hid his intentions for order. His threat was apparent to everyone.

Maybe.

Now that I think about it, I realized that from my perspective, the only two that weren't on board were Vaermina and Peryite. They were the only two pulled aside in the cutscenes. So it stands to my reason that they were the only two left that needed to be convinced.

My logic is that if it takes unanimous decision and you're only pulling 2 aside, that means everyone else but those two have already agreed. So my speculations is on a combination of "why did those two, IN PARTICULAR, needed to be convinced?" + "was Jyggolag so much more of an immediate threat that there was less resistance to the mental sealing that deadric princes tend to use?"

Valpro

I suppose Trejon's answer contributes to the second part of my speculation. I do still speculate on why Vaermina and Peryite didn't feel the same level of urgency in Ithelia's case.

At least With Peryite, as the prince of "Natural order" (among other things) I can kiiiinda think that he saw Jyggalag's Logical Deteriminism as not natural enough as opposed to ithellia's affinity for fate. He may be of the mind that both Mephala AND Hermaes Mora deal in fate so Ithelia having another aspect that sphere isn't a large enough afront.

I really can't even speculate on Vaermina though.

Elsonso

Faulgor wrote: »

It's possible that only Mora was aware of what Ithelia could do, given his sphere. And he just didn't manage to convince all his peers.

Ithelia was kicking the sand in Mora's sandbox, and that made it personal for Mora. It became an issue of domination, and Mora won. For a while.

I expect that most of the Princes didn't care one way or another, since Ithelia was not in their sandbox. I sense there is not a lot of esprit de corps in the ranks of the Daedric Princes. Only Peryite and Vermina took umbrage. For political reasons, no doubt.

Valpro

Elsonso wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

It's possible that only Mora was aware of what Ithelia could do, given his sphere. And he just didn't manage to convince all his peers.

Ithelia was kicking the sand in Mora's sandbox, and that made it personal for Mora. It became an issue of domination, and Mora won. For a while.

I expect that most of the Princes didn't care one way or another, since Ithelia was not in their sandbox. I sense there is not a lot of esprit de corps in the ranks of the Daedric Princes. Only Peryite and Vermina took umbrage. For political reasons, no doubt.

Well that's kind of the issue. The Story of necrom itsellf implies that most danger princesses did care. Like a big part of the necrom story is circumventing

The pact primordial which says that a desert prince cannot invade another desert Prince's realm without unanimous decision among all other princes.

I'm going to assume that the pact primordial functions as described: in order to interfere directly with another daedric you need unanimous decision. Doesn't necessarily mean the princes who say yeah do it are going to contribute too much. Given the prequel quest in game shows us that

there were at minimum three princes very much inclined to directly assist Mora in neutralizing The partying question: Boethia Azurah, and Mephala.

That's just what we've been told so far.

Elsonso

Valpro wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

It's possible that only Mora was aware of what Ithelia could do, given his sphere. And he just didn't manage to convince all his peers.

Ithelia was kicking the sand in Mora's sandbox, and that made it personal for Mora. It became an issue of domination, and Mora won. For a while.

I expect that most of the Princes didn't care one way or another, since Ithelia was not in their sandbox. I sense there is not a lot of esprit de corps in the ranks of the Daedric Princes. Only Peryite and Vermina took umbrage. For political reasons, no doubt.

Well that's kind of the issue. The Story of necrom itsellf implies that most danger princesses did care. Like a big part of the necrom story is circumventing

The pact primordial which says that a desert prince cannot invade another desert Prince's realm without unanimous decision among all other princes.

I'm going to assume that the pact primordial functions as described: in order to interfere directly with another daedric you need unanimous decision. Doesn't necessarily mean the princes who say yeah do it are going to contribute too much. Given the prequel quest in game shows us that

there were at minimum three princes very much inclined to directly assist Mora in neutralizing The partying question: Boethia Azurah, and Mephala.

That's just what we've been told so far.

My impression of that "pact" is that it is more "guidelines" than an actual "rule". Certain Princes have definite "boundary issues". They seem to follow the "pact" when it suits them, and they enforce it when it becomes enough of an annoyance.

The biggest observation that I have is that the Princes play off each other and join forces or oppose each other for reasons of "motivated self interest". If they are not motivated, they aren't interested. Sometimes, even when they are interested, they are not really motivated.

As a general rule, I don't think the Princes pay all that much attention to what is going on. Outside of Mundus, of course, about which the known Princes seem far to interested. Everything to them is a toy, and if they are not playing with that toy, they are off playing with another toy that interests them more. When they are not playing with Mundus, I don't think they really care about what is happening elsewhere and focus on their own interests.

It would be easy for me to see that Princes could be indifferent to what Mora was doing and what was going on with Ithelia. Not paying attention. Didn't care. Agreement in principle. Absorbed in whatever it is that they wanted to do that was not listening to Mora ramble on about things.

The Princes are immortal and timeless. They have egos to match. They know that Mora cannot kill Ithelia. The entire concept is foreign to them. We don't even fully understand them, but what if the only thing that would raise a Daedric eyebrow is the threat that Mora described disrupted the precious Mundus Toy too much. Then they might be interested and motivated. Otherwise, it seems to me that their immortal nature and Daedric-sized ego would prevent them from taking an interest in any "doomsday" ramblings about reality. Disinterested and unmotivated, content to just let Mora do whatever he wants, especially if he shuts up.

Valpro

Elsonso wrote: »

Valpro wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

It's possible that only Mora was aware of what Ithelia could do, given his sphere. And he just didn't manage to convince all his peers.

Ithelia was kicking the sand in Mora's sandbox, and that made it personal for Mora. It became an issue of domination, and Mora won. For a while.

I expect that most of the Princes didn't care one way or another, since Ithelia was not in their sandbox. I sense there is not a lot of esprit de corps in the ranks of the Daedric Princes. Only Peryite and Vermina took umbrage. For political reasons, no doubt.

Well that's kind of the issue. The Story of necrom itsellf implies that most danger princesses did care. Like a big part of the necrom story is circumventing

The pact primordial which says that a desert prince cannot invade another desert Prince's realm without unanimous decision among all other princes.

I'm going to assume that the pact primordial functions as described: in order to interfere directly with another daedric you need unanimous decision. Doesn't necessarily mean the princes who say yeah do it are going to contribute too much. Given the prequel quest in game shows us that

there were at minimum three princes very much inclined to directly assist Mora in neutralizing The partying question: Boethia Azurah, and Mephala.

That's just what we've been told so far.

My impression of that "pact" is that it is more "guidelines" than an actual "rule". Certain Princes have definite "boundary issues". They seem to follow the "pact" when it suits them, and they enforce it when it becomes enough of an annoyance.

The biggest observation that I have is that the Princes play off each other and join forces or oppose each other for reasons of "motivated self interest". If they are not motivated, they aren't interested. Sometimes, even when they are interested, they are not really motivated.

As a general rule, I don't think the Princes pay all that much attention to what is going on. Outside of Mundus, of course, about which the known Princes seem far to interested. Everything to them is a toy, and if they are not playing with that toy, they are off playing with another toy that interests them more. When they are not playing with Mundus, I don't think they really care about what is happening elsewhere and focus on their own interests.

It would be easy for me to see that Princes could be indifferent to what Mora was doing and what was going on with Ithelia. Not paying attention. Didn't care. Agreement in principle. Absorbed in whatever it is that they wanted to do that was not listening to Mora ramble on about things.

The Princes are immortal and timeless. They have egos to match. They know that Mora cannot kill Ithelia. The entire concept is foreign to them. We don't even fully understand them, but what if the only thing that would raise a Daedric eyebrow is the threat that Mora described disrupted the precious Mundus Toy too much. Then they might be interested and motivated. Otherwise, it seems to me that their immortal nature and Daedric-sized ego would prevent them from taking an interest in any "doomsday" ramblings about reality. Disinterested and unmotivated, content to just let Mora do whatever he wants, especially if he shuts up.

Pretty sound assessment, I would think, since even without all the other princes, Herma did his thing anyway. Though potentially it could be more, and "if you do this and it's known, the gloves are off type of thing." Hermes mora, I could see realistically having a personal stake in the mundus, being made of "the thrown away ideas of its creation" Which could very much imply that his relation to it is a lot more.... co-dependent than the other princes, who were just around before then.

ThelerisTelvanni

Vermina's relem is the world of dreams. What are dream? Possebiletys, potential paths to follow. At least some of them are.
Ithelia as the prince of paths and mistress of the untraveled road might have some overlap with those dreams. Her presence might give the dreams more and stronger variants and therefor powering Vermina? So Vermina might profit from Ithelia beeing around. In conclusion that might be a reason Vermina does mind Ithelia beeing taken out.

Elsonso

ThelerisTelvanni wrote: »

Vermina's relem is the world of dreams. What are dream? Possebiletys, potential paths to follow. At least some of them are.
Ithelia as the prince of paths and mistress of the untraveled road might have some overlap with those dreams. Her presence might give the dreams more and stronger variants and therefor powering Vermina? So Vermina might profit from Ithelia beeing around. In conclusion that might be a reason Vermina does mind Ithelia beeing taken out.

It makes sense that Vermina and Peryite are very concerned about what happens to Mundus. Their livelihood depends on resources primarily sourced from Mundus. Vermina is probably the prince with the most to lose if something tragically final happens to Nirn.

Oddly enough, the Plane Meld did not seem to bother Vermina very much. Merging Nirn with Coldharbour and turning all of the mortals into dreamless husks should be Vermina's personal nightmare. Vermina should have been right at the front of the fight to save Nirn, right? Yeah, that was Meridia. The Prince who invaded Coldharbour in violation of the "pact". I don't even recall so much as a word of encouragement from Vermina during the whole thing.

So, no, I doubt that Ithelia's impact on Mundus was of any concern to Vermina. If she can't get worked up over the Plane Meld, then whatever the Prince of Paths would do to Nirn is probably a yawn.

I think the whole issue for Vermina about Ithelia is really about Mora. Specifically, what Mora intended to do. I think it was all about what Mora wanted to do to Vermina that bothered Vermina.

Soarora

Elsonso wrote: »

ThelerisTelvanni wrote: »

Vermina's relem is the world of dreams. What are dream? Possebiletys, potential paths to follow. At least some of them are.
Ithelia as the prince of paths and mistress of the untraveled road might have some overlap with those dreams. Her presence might give the dreams more and stronger variants and therefor powering Vermina? So Vermina might profit from Ithelia beeing around. In conclusion that might be a reason Vermina does mind Ithelia beeing taken out.

It makes sense that Vermina and Peryite are very concerned about what happens to Mundus. Their livelihood depends on resources primarily sourced from Mundus. Vermina is probably the prince with the most to lose if something tragically final happens to Nirn.

Oddly enough, the Plane Meld did not seem to bother Vermina very much. Merging Nirn with Coldharbour and turning all of the mortals into dreamless husks should be Vermina's personal nightmare. Vermina should have been right at the front of the fight to save Nirn, right? Yeah, that was Meridia. The Prince who invaded Coldharbour in violation of the "pact". I don't even recall so much as a word of encouragement from Vermina during the whole thing.

So, no, I doubt that Ithelia's impact on Mundus was of any concern to Vermina. If she can't get worked up over the Plane Meld, then whatever the Prince of Paths would do to Nirn is probably a yawn.

I think the whole issue for Vermina about Ithelia is really about Mora. Specifically, what Mora intended to do. I think it was all about what Mora wanted to do to Vermina that bothered Vermina.

This is a good point. Maybe her exclamation “we cant do this to another Prince!” wasn’t about putting Ithelia away but about removing the memory of her from everyone’s minds. Everyone still remembers Jyggalag, but he got put away in a different way.

Trejgon

Valpro wrote: »

Well that's kind of the issue. The Story of necrom itsellf implies that most danger princesses did care. Like a big part of the necrom story is circumventing

The pact primordial which says that a desert prince cannot invade another desert Prince's realm without unanimous decision among all other princes.

I will take here a moment to point out that

the pact primordial

Did not bother Nocturnal in summerset story at all. (she invaded coloured rooms and nearly managed to get rid of Meridia all together). And there was no unanimous decision for that action either, because we know that at the very least the rest of triad was by that point very opposed to anything Nocturnal would be doing.

PrinceShroob

Trejgon wrote: »

Valpro wrote: »

Well that's kind of the issue. The Story of necrom itsellf implies that most danger princesses did care. Like a big part of the necrom story is circumventing

The pact primordial which says that a desert prince cannot invade another desert Prince's realm without unanimous decision among all other princes.

I will take here a moment to point out that

the pact primordial

Did not bother Nocturnal in summerset story at all. (she invaded coloured rooms and nearly managed to get rid of Meridia all together). And there was no unanimous decision for that action either, because we know that at the very least the rest of triad was by that point very opposed to anything Nocturnal would be doing.

The Pact Primordial prevents Princes from personally manifesting in another Prince's realm without an invitation (this is implied by the wording in the book and Scruut specifically says "No Prince may physically intrude in another's realm."). Meridia merely says "...How dare they! The triad dares to invade my sacred realm?" which leaves open the possibility that the Triad sent mortal agents, as mortals are not bound by the Pact and may enter a Prince's realm without permission.

The Greymarch is an edge case because it is, for all intents and purposes, an invasion, except that the Shivering Isles are, technically, Jyggalag's own realm.

Valpro wrote: »

When I look at their spheres and how they are said to have control over their spheres, they seem similar enough in what they can do, that they both should pose a terribly similar level of threat. So why unanimous decision to.... disrupt the capacity of each of those Daedric Princes not uniform?

Jyggalag was threatening every other Prince with the expansion of his domain. He says during "The End of Order" in Oblivion: "Once, I ruled this Realm, a world of perfect Order. My dominion expanded across the seas of Oblivion with each passing era. The other Princes, fearful of my power, cursed me with Madness, doomed me to live as Sheogorath, a broken soul reigning in a broken land."

Jyggalag was unanimously targeted because he was directly threatening the other Princes, i.e., because of what he had done and was doing. Ithelia was not, but Mora was concerned about what she could do, which is why the decision was not unanimous.

Valpro

Convo up to this point.

PrinceShroob wrote: »

Trejgon wrote: »

Valpro wrote: »

Well that's kind of the issue. The Story of necrom itsellf implies that most danger princesses did care. Like a big part of the necrom story is circumventing

The pact primordial which says that a desert prince cannot invade another desert Prince's realm without unanimous decision among all other princes.

I will take here a moment to point out that

the pact primordial

Did not bother Nocturnal in summerset story at all. (she invaded coloured rooms and nearly managed to get rid of Meridia all together). And there was no unanimous decision for that action either, because we know that at the very least the rest of triad was by that point very opposed to anything Nocturnal would be doing.

The Pact Primordial prevents Princes from personally manifesting in another Prince's realm without an invitation (this is implied by the wording in the book and Scruut specifically says "No Prince may physically intrude in another's realm."). Meridia merely says "...How dare they! The triad dares to invade my sacred realm?" which leaves open the possibility that the Triad sent mortal agents, as mortals are not bound by the Pact and may enter a Prince's realm without permission.

The Greymarch is an edge case because it is, for all intents and purposes, an invasion, except that the Shivering Isles are, technically, Jyggalag's own realm.

Valpro wrote: »

When I look at their spheres and how they are said to have control over their spheres, they seem similar enough in what they can do, that they both should pose a terribly similar level of threat. So why unanimous decision to.... disrupt the capacity of each of those Daedric Princes not uniform?

Jyggalag was threatening every other Prince with the expansion of his domain. He says during "The End of Order" in Oblivion: "Once, I ruled this Realm, a world of perfect Order. My dominion expanded across the seas of Oblivion with each passing era. The other Princes, fearful of my power, cursed me with Madness, doomed me to live as Sheogorath, a broken soul reigning in a broken land."

Jyggalag was unanimously targeted because he was directly threatening the other Princes, i.e., because of what he had done and was doing. Ithelia was not, but Mora was concerned about what she could do, which is why the decision was not unanimous.

See that is a thing you point out that I saw but never really noticed the implication of is that whenever they go to another realm their usually possessing someone else. The primordial doesn't actually prohibit the interference of other dangered princes just the physical manifestations, which makes sense when you take into account that there is this kind of subtext that there is no difference between the physical manifestation of a dangerous Prince's realm and the daedric Prince themselves... Metaphysical theory is weird. The weirdest version of "I'm inside You" I guess. 😂

In addition to the difference between Mora being invested in Ithelia, and everyone being invested in Jyggalag, specifically in that Ithelia's a threat to the mundus:

In the... Census of Daedric Lords (?) Hermaus Mora is comprised "of the thrown away ideas used in the creation of the Mundus". The same Mundus that he is also working to protect which would imply that he has some connection that makes him way more invested in its preservation than any other Prince's would be cuz his existence would likely be tied to it in a way that there is isn't.

So I could certainly see, him caring a lot more. As for the other daedric princess they could have very well just been on "eh do your thing" Even if it's a longer lines of "the Mundus is my favorite toy make sure she doesn't break it."

Peryites objections at least make sense within the realm of what I understand of his fear of natural order the way things are to go. So like him being kind of abrasive on the subject of Mora's "well what if that happens what if that happens" it makes sense that Peryite would respond along the lines of "I don't care about what MIGHT. this is what it IS."

That is thanks to you all by the way.

So I supposed only one that doesn't make sense is vaermina. Hmmm.

Valpro

By the way anyone with a an interest in the wider elder scrolls lore community, Drewmora on Youtube has a video called "Hermaus Mora was lying to us" One of these sections near the end is called "Ithelia, Sheogorath, and Jyggalag."

Necrotech_Master

my understanding of the way that ithelia happened, is that peryite and vaermina objected because mora wanted to mess with memories, in which they believed that memory is sort of sacrosanct or something that shouldnt be messed with

like others suggested, i think jyggalag was more imminent threat because he was actively invading other realms of oblivion, while for ithelia, the only lore we have on it is coming from mora himself

i think it was theorized that ithelia wasnt sealed away until some time in the merethic era, which is kind of hinted at in the gold road prologue quest

in this quest you see visions of the past which included several mortal races (including an orc, which as far as im aware didnt become a thing until after the fall of trinimac) acting as vessels for the daedric princes

Valpro

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

my understanding of the way that ithelia happened, is that peryite and vaermina objected because mora wanted to mess with memories, in which they believed that memory is sort of sacrosanct or something that shouldnt be messed with

like others suggested, i think jyggalag was more imminent threat because he was actively invading other realms of oblivion, while for ithelia, the only lore we have on it is coming from mora himself

i think it was theorized that ithelia wasnt sealed away until some time in the merethic era, which is kind of hinted at in the gold road prologue quest

in this quest you see visions of the past which included several mortal races (including an orc, which as far as im aware didnt become a thing until after the fall of trinimac) acting as vessels for the daedric princes

given that some mentions of the orcs are from before the chimer Exodus. Such as the iron orcs of wrothgar, I think the transition from being an actual godlike entity to part of the earth bones that define the rules of the Mundus was more gradual than we give it credit for.

As a result of this I am slowly coming to the conclusion that. Linear time (and the other rules of reality that govern the Mundus) came into being slowly. That's a whole other Lore thread, though. Hmmm....

Trejgon

PrinceShroob wrote: »

The Pact Primordial prevents Princes from personally manifesting in another Prince's realm without an invitation (this is implied by the wording in the book and Scruut specifically says "No Prince may physically intrude in another's realm."). Meridia merely says "...How dare they! The triad dares to invade my sacred realm?" which leaves open the possibility that the Triad sent mortal agents, as mortals are not bound by the Pact and may enter a Prince's realm without permission.

The Greymarch is an edge case because it is, for all intents and purposes, an invasion, except that the Shivering Isles are, technically, Jyggalag's own realm.

I disagree with the take of "The triad dares to invade" leaving open option of mortal invasion. "The Triad" was alliance of three princes, but their mortal servants took upon the name of "Court of Bedlam". Triad referred specifically to the three princes. Additionally later in the questline we get confirmation from Darien, that he can no longer even feel meridia out there, and comparing that with all the times Meridia refers to him as "my vessel" it seems highly implied, that in that moment, after nocturnal overshadowed coloured rooms, the only instance of "Meridia" left was inside Darien. Counts as realm incursion to me. Additionally the take over of the Crystal tower was specifically targetted to allow Nocturnal to be omnipresent, which includes being physically present in all planes of existance, including daedric realms of other princes.

Speaking of weird edge cases, there is also a base game issue of Meridia having a piece of her own realm, jabbed inside coldharbour, that serves as safe haven and staging for guild's invasion. There is a passing mention in those quests, about the consequences of one prince having a piece of their realm inside realm of another prince. This is a weird edge case, because technically speaking, the city was being originally pulled into coldharbour by Molag Bal's intend, but it was being pulled as a normal city, and Meridia did shenanigans to empower the city with chunk of her realm, specifically to get a piece of her realm inside coldharbour "for future use".