Class Identity

gariondavey · December 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

Elder Scrolls shouldn't have classes at all, the identity goes to the player to choose, the developers should make the abilities interesting and unique for their school, not balancing around made up classes in a game that got famous by the very freedom of building your character by choosing schools that you are interested in.

Lol what? Every Elder Scrolls game up until Skyrim had classes.

To an extent, but you still had access to all the weapons and magic trees and stuff. If I want to use illusion style magic in eso some classes definitely don't have that within their class system. Eso classes are extremely different from, for example, oblivion's class system.

Galeriano · December 2023

SandandStars wrote: »

magsorc pvp class identity: run a zoo or die

Not even 1 pet and 1vXing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u11hU6EK9T8

Elyu · December 2023

Some interesting new ideas here.

Pulling on some ideas I've seen from other threads and this one:

Players generally still (seem to) have the idea in their mind of the way class archetypes were sold when the game was first released - that is "play the way you want" (i.e. mix and match whatever skills-lines, weapon types and class skill lines to create the build YOU want).

As the quote blow points out however, that was never really an option, as players were shoe-horned into specific builds by arbitrary divides.

HalfDragoness wrote: »

Hybridization is a positive change from where the game was. Like how magicka characters only weapon choise was a staff, so all the other weapon skill tress were basically irrelivant. And that skill morph choices didn't feel like choices, as one the one that didn't use the attribute you'd prioritised was useless.

However where hybridization is right now has made the choice between magicka or stamina less of a choice in terms of playstyle and set choices.

I think what might help, in addition to your suggestions above, would be giving classes a stronger connection to an elemental or physical status effect. Like Whorl of Depths being less useful to a magDK because Whorl does frost damage and magDK's use fire damage. But there is then an equivilent set somewhere that is an excellent choice for fire damage.

I've also sort of wished that if magic users wielded greatswords and daggers that you'd be able to morph the skills to do some kind of damage that matches your class, or just use the weapons slightly differently. Equally I wish there was a way for Stamina characters to wield the staves and use them like physical weapons.

However were I'd disagree with the quote is that the Hybridisation changes haven't fixed the problem - they've just inverted it. Whereas before, you had to play either mag or stam to be effective, and thus choosing to play a hybrid build would be deliberately hampering yourself for an RP choice. But now it's the other way around - choosing to play a mag-only or stam-only build is deliberately reducing your effectiveness for the sake of 'theme'.

A possible solution lies in the conversation around another topic - WW and vamp. The community has been complaining for years now that vamp is either "completely useless never use it" or "so powerful it's mandatory" and that WW has always felt like something tacked on to whatever class you're playing.
Thus a potential solution to both is have them interact with, and be effected by, the class you are playing - it would change the functionality of your class skills.

And WW would be similar - the class you are playing would change the functionality of your WW skills.

A similar approach could be taken for the mag / stam / hybridization debate. Rather than skills having a 'mag' or 'stam' morph (or the arcanist approach of ' the same skill just uses whichever resource is higher') skills would have 2 different morphs, but then whichever resource is higher would then further change the functionality of the skill.
So skills would essentially have 4 variations.

This would also apply to weapon skill lines, so you could run a 2H on a mag character and the skills would change to reflect your 'battlemage' playstyle.

And lastly - the 3 destro staffs absolutely need to be separated into 3 different skill lines, and a new weapon skill line needs to be added for 'magicka tanking' rather than roughly shoe-horned into the ice staff, thus making less room for ice-mage type builds!

MindOfTheSwarm · December 2023

I agree with the OP.

I would go with this as my goal for Elemental Identity.

Fire: Single Target DoT.
Shock: AoE Burst.
Frost: AoE DoT. Mix of Aura and Ground.
Magic: Single Target Burst.

Poison: Single Target DoT.
Disease: AoE DoT.
Bleed: Single Target DoT and AoE DoT.
Physical: Single Target Burst and AoE Burst.

All types would have a bit of everything but each would have 1 or 2 more skills that focus in their given identity goals.

For Example:

Frost could have 1 single Target DoT but 3 Aura DoTs and 3 Ground AoE DoT’s outside of Ultimate abilities. (Almost at that already, but you get the idea).

Amottica · December 2023

The extreme rigidity of class builds in many other games gives a strong class identity at the cost of choice.

In ESO we have always had a lot of choice and flexibility with our build but that has always come with reduced class flavor.

It is a tradeoff. While I could live with a little less choice with what we can build with, I will take this degree of choice over the archaic builds we have in other MMORPGs.

IZZEFlameLash · December 2023

Amottica wrote: »

The extreme rigidity of class builds in many other games gives a strong class identity at the cost of choice.

In ESO we have always had a lot of choice and flexibility with our build but that has always come with reduced class flavor.

It is a tradeoff. While I could live with a little less choice with what we can build with, I will take this degree of choice over the archaic builds we have in other MMORPGs.

Remember when ESO was keeping more rigid division? Everyone was calling for homogenization without realizing. 'This class is terrible at burst damage unlike that class. Plz buff.' 'This class has no burst healing what gives?' were all calls for homogenization even before hybridization. It is always a bit funny how people blame hybridization for supposed lack of 'class identity' (despite stamina and magicka not being actually class at all just a spec under a class can be played in and class identity was lost the moment DK became burst damage class instead of DoT and tank class for example). For once, this ain't ZOS fault.

ZhuJiuyin · December 2023

I think everyone wants a patch that is balanced: cut with the precision of a scalpel or thoughtfully sculpted like a work of art.

Rather than what we get, it is like a butcher using a machete to chop off bones at will or a child making a clay doll at will.

ShadowKyuubi · December 2023

Stamblades - Weapon Poisons.

Back in 2019, when Elsweyr released, you could create heroism poisons instead of potions (still can, but why?). Either no one caught it at the time or what happened was introduced in a later patch, but these poisons interacted with the NB Catalyst Passive. Every time a heroism poison, and only a heroism poison (a lot of testing was done to study this interaction) procced on an enemy, the NB would receive 20 ultimate like they had just drank a potion. Obviously this was overpowered, because Nightblades doing this were getting insane ultimate regen numbers and this interaction was quickly fixed when it became "viral", someone released a youtube video on it at the time (youtube.com/watch?v=LuPsx2kx9p4) and it went through a lot of the endgame trial discords.

I would love to this type of interaction on Nightblades, but in a less overpowered manner.

Cheers,
Shadowkyuubi

MindOfTheSwarm · December 2023

Although class identity is important I think a more important question is that of Damage Type identity. By understanding both you allow a variety of builds that standout and offer different play styles.

Eg.

Fire:
Offensive DD Identity:
Single Target DoT damage, Burning and Spell Damage. Major Breach, Minor Defile.
Defensive Tanking Identity:
AoE Healing over time based on Health.

Shock:
Offensive Identity:
AoE Burst damage, Concussed and Spell Penetration. Minor Vulnerability, Minor Sorcery.
Defensive Tanking Identity:
Additional Armor bonuses from skills.

Frost:
Offensive Identity:
AoE DoT damage, Chilled and Spell Critical. Major and Minor Brittle.
Defensive Tanking Identity:
Damage shields based on Health.

Magic:
Offensive Identity:
Single Target Burst, Overload and Magicka Recovery. Minor Breach. Major Sorcery.
Defensive Tanking Identity:
Damage shields based on Max Mag or Stam.

Physical:
Offensive Identity:
Burst Damage, Sundered and Weapon Damage. Major Breach, Major Courage.
Defensive Tanking Identity:
Additional Armor bonuses from skills.

Bleed:
Offensive Identity:
Balanced mix of DoT and Pressure. Haemorrhage, Minor Mangle and Major Brutality.
Defensive Tanking Identity:
Life steal effects based on damage dealt.

Poison:
Offensive Identity:
Single Target DoT damage. Poisoned, Major Vulnerability and Minor Cowardice.
Defensive Tanking Identity:
Damage reduction from Poisoned targets.

Disease:
Offensive Identity:
AoE DoT damage. Diseased, Major Defile and Major Cowardice.
Defensive Identity:
Increased Armor based on Health.

Now you can DD or Tank with any damage type and build accordingly and differently based on your preferences while each element has its own flavor. Everything would have options and be able to have skills that exist outside of the focus so the above suggestions would have extra choices, but Flame would have more single target DoT skills as an example while the others would have only 1 or 2 to keep the element identity focused.

After that you need to give the weapon skill line their own identities based on the damage types the deal too.

Two Handed: Physical and Bleed
Dual Wield: Bleed and Poison
Bow: Physical and Poison
Sword and Shield: Physical and Disease?

Then split the Destruction Staff line into 3 clear separate lines that focus on the identity of the element instead of having them as they are now which are basically pallet swaps with some different bonuses.

Every skill line would offer both DD and a few tanking options allowing the game to open up in build diversity.

Healers have their own issues which is why I don’t include them here. Avoiding the whole ‘heal bot’ gameplay style is a separate issue.

SandandStars · December 2023

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

According to ESO here
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/classes

This appears to be the Theme for each class.

Arcanists - Master forbidden knowledge and manipulate arcane energies, ancient runes, and lost tomes as the Arcanist. Draw power not intended for mortal use and weave destructive, restorative, or defensive magics that are further empowered by the unique Crux system. Available with the Necrom Chapter.
As an Arcanist, knowledge is the key to power beyond understanding.

Necromancer’s - All of Tamriel’s dead are a resource for you to manipulate and exploit, as nothing is forbidden for those who seek to master the dark arts. The Necromancer Class brings a unique style of play to The Elder Scrolls Online, allowing you to summon the undead and make use of corpses to overwhelm your enemies and empower your attacks. Available with the Elsweyr Chapter or Necromancer Class upgrade in the Crown Store.
When playing as a Necromancer, death itself is a weapon.

Wardens - Manipulate the wilds and summon powerful beasts with the Warden, a versatile Class that draws from the power of nature itself. When playing a Warden character, you can unleash the fury of the wilds upon unsuspecting intruders, wrap your allies in the healing power of the Green, and encase yourself in impenetrable, protective frost. Available with the Morrowind Chapter or Warden Class upgrade in the Crown Store.
As a Warden, Tamriel's beasts and wilds are yours to command.

DragonKnights - Burn your foes in cleansing flame and withstand almost any assault with the Dragonknight, a fiery, unrelenting Class that thrives in the heart of battle. The Dragonknight Class allows you to win the war of attrition with abilities that draw power from both the earth and the beasts of myth while overpowering your foes with ferocious Fire spells. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
With the Dragonknight, you bring ruin in the form of molten metal and fire.

Sorcerers - The horrors of Oblivion and the power of lightning itself are yours to command with the Sorcerer Class. As a Sorcerer, unlimited power is at your fingertips, allowing you to call powerful lightning strikes from above, support your allies, suppress your enemies, or overwhelm your foes with Daedric monsters. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
When wielding the full strength of the Sorcerer Class, all will fear your power.

Nightblades - Attack from the shadows, drain your foes' health, and vanish into the void with the Nightblade Class. The shadows truly are your greatest weapon as you wield abilities that deal devastating damage at any range and siphon your victim's lifeforce to your allies. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
As a Nightblade, all of Tamriel fears your deadly unseen strike.

Templars - Seeking darkness whether it might be found, the Templar is a beacon to their allies and a blinding threat to their foes. As a Templar, you must bring justice to Tamriel in the form of cleansing light. Call forth the limitless power of the sun to obliterate your enemies and restore yourself and your allies in radiant light. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
When playing a Templar, you'll always light the way.

There’s an update in recent patch notes regarding Necromancer class identity: Not for use in PVP.

YetAnotherLinuxUser · December 2023

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

According to ESO here
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/classes

This appears to be the Theme for each class.

Arcanists - Master forbidden knowledge and manipulate arcane energies, ancient runes, and lost tomes as the Arcanist. Draw power not intended for mortal use and weave destructive, restorative, or defensive magics that are further empowered by the unique Crux system. Available with the Necrom Chapter.
As an Arcanist, knowledge is the key to power beyond understanding.

Necromancer’s - All of Tamriel’s dead are a resource for you to manipulate and exploit, as nothing is forbidden for those who seek to master the dark arts. The Necromancer Class brings a unique style of play to The Elder Scrolls Online, allowing you to summon the undead and make use of corpses to overwhelm your enemies and empower your attacks. Available with the Elsweyr Chapter or Necromancer Class upgrade in the Crown Store.
When playing as a Necromancer, death itself is a weapon.

Wardens - Manipulate the wilds and summon powerful beasts with the Warden, a versatile Class that draws from the power of nature itself. When playing a Warden character, you can unleash the fury of the wilds upon unsuspecting intruders, wrap your allies in the healing power of the Green, and encase yourself in impenetrable, protective frost. Available with the Morrowind Chapter or Warden Class upgrade in the Crown Store.
As a Warden, Tamriel's beasts and wilds are yours to command.

DragonKnights - Burn your foes in cleansing flame and withstand almost any assault with the Dragonknight, a fiery, unrelenting Class that thrives in the heart of battle. The Dragonknight Class allows you to win the war of attrition with abilities that draw power from both the earth and the beasts of myth while overpowering your foes with ferocious Fire spells. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
With the Dragonknight, you bring ruin in the form of molten metal and fire.

Sorcerers - The horrors of Oblivion and the power of lightning itself are yours to command with the Sorcerer Class. As a Sorcerer, unlimited power is at your fingertips, allowing you to call powerful lightning strikes from above, support your allies, suppress your enemies, or overwhelm your foes with Daedric monsters. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
When wielding the full strength of the Sorcerer Class, all will fear your power.

Nightblades - Attack from the shadows, drain your foes' health, and vanish into the void with the Nightblade Class. The shadows truly are your greatest weapon as you wield abilities that deal devastating damage at any range and siphon your victim's lifeforce to your allies. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
As a Nightblade, all of Tamriel fears your deadly unseen strike.

Templars - Seeking darkness whether it might be found, the Templar is a beacon to their allies and a blinding threat to their foes. As a Templar, you must bring justice to Tamriel in the form of cleansing light. Call forth the limitless power of the sun to obliterate your enemies and restore yourself and your allies in radiant light. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
When playing a Templar, you'll always light the way.

please dont confuse marketing with lore.

Luckylancer · December 2023

abigfishy wrote: »

A long but a good read. I feel like the classes already have a strong identity.

Sorc - lightning and Daedric pets

DK - fire (mag) or poison (stam) lots of dots and strong tanking

NB - stealth and super high single target burst damage

Templar - holy damage and strong healing

Warden - animals, frost and strong healing

Necromancer - undead, necrotic and strong tanking (hard to kill cause they have the power of death)

Arcanist - arcane magic with a focus on beams

Sorc: cast blue aoe dot effects and spam a spammable. click arnaments every 4 seconds
Templar: cast yellow aoe effects dots and spam jabs +beam. click backlash every 6 seonds
Warden: cast blue aoe dots and spam a spammable . click beetles when they are up (6/9 seconds)
Necro: cast death themed aoe dots and spam weapon spammable. click blastbones when he decides to die
NB: cast shadow themed aoes and spam class spammable. click grim when it is up
DK: I dont have dk
Arcanist: regular stuff but you cast beams too. The most unique class rn imo

All classes wear same equipment, use same mundus, cast dots then spamm spammable. All classes' skills have standartised costs and damages. All classes are same. There is no identity other than colors and roleplay elements.

MindOfTheSwarm · December 2023

Luckylancer wrote: »

abigfishy wrote: »

A long but a good read. I feel like the classes already have a strong identity.

Sorc - lightning and Daedric pets

DK - fire (mag) or poison (stam) lots of dots and strong tanking

NB - stealth and super high single target burst damage

Templar - holy damage and strong healing

Warden - animals, frost and strong healing

Necromancer - undead, necrotic and strong tanking (hard to kill cause they have the power of death)

Arcanist - arcane magic with a focus on beams

Sorc: cast blue aoe dot effects and spam a spammable. click arnaments every 4 seconds
Templar: cast yellow aoe effects dots and spam jabs +beam. click backlash every 6 seonds
Warden: cast blue aoe dots and spam a spammable . click beetles when they are up (6/9 seconds)
Necro: cast death themed aoe dots and spam weapon spammable. click blastbones when he decides to die
NB: cast shadow themed aoes and spam class spammable. click grim when it is up
DK: I dont have dk
Arcanist: regular stuff but you cast beams too. The most unique class rn imo

All classes wear same equipment, use same mundus, cast dots then spamm spammable. All classes' skills have standartised costs and damages. All classes are same. There is no identity other than colors and roleplay elements.

This could be changed with elemental identity changes and the breaking up of the destro staff skill lines or separating existing nuances even further.

Example:

Elemental Ring: Can be cast at range and gains additional effects depending on the element:

Flame Ring causes targets hit to take an additional X Flame Damage over 10 seconds. This damage increases by 2% for every Flame damage over time effect currently on the target.

Shock Ring causes Concussed targets that are hit to send out a bolt of lightning to a nearby target that deals X Shock Damage. This bolt has increased Critical Chance.

Frost Ring leaves behind a swirling mist of frost that deals X Frost Damage over 16 seconds. You can have up to 3 mists active at a time and their damage stacks. This mist has increased chance to apply Chilled.