Class Identity

Elyu

Prepare for a wall of text....

So, I've recently returned to the game after a few years, and have set about gearing my characters for PvE in a very non-meta way; elemental builds!
In the process however, I've run into the changes made regarding hybridisation, and what I see as the degradation of not just class identity, but build identity too - I've seen stam builds running dual wield+destro, and mag builds running dual wield+destro, and both stam and mag seem to be running pillar of nirn as BiS for dps because why wouldn't you when it's so good?

So here's what we currently have if (like myself) we're to go out of our way to create a build around 'class identity' (keeping in mind we're shortly to see some rumoured class-specific sets from the new endless dungeon):

Stamsorc: physical dmg
Magsorc: shock/lightning
Magdk: fire
Stamdk: poison
Magden: frost
Stamden: bleed
Magcro: fire+shock+frost

good so far, but then....

Stamcro: physical? poison? disease?
Magblade: magic? assasination?
Stamblade: physical? disease?
Magplar: magic? fire? Channelled attacks?
Stamplar: physical? fire? poison?
arcanist (both stam+mag): beam attacks? magic dmg?

And here lies the problem; if every class, for both mag and stam builds is just 'drop some ground aoe then spam your spammable' there's very little to distinguish between playstyles for different classes.
Now I don't think elemental builds should be the 'be all and end all' because then we would just be replacing one meta (hybrid proc builds) for another meta (elemental proc builds) however we can use class identity as a starting point to creating more build diversity.

I think if you choose to stack spell damage (siroria for example) that should be an option, but equally so should elemental builds - I think each should have a niche where they would outperform the other - for example maybe proc sets should be ground-aoe based, so would outperform during static fights, but stacking stats would outperform for mobile fights, or direct damage build would outperform on single target dps, but DoT builds would outperform on cleave dmg / aoe / trash fights

So here's my (very rough) suggestion for class identity, building on what we already have, including some new dmg types to increase diversity:

Stamsorc: air (with new elemental effect 'buffeted' - small DoT +target takes increased damage from DoT attacks)
Magsorc: shock

Magdk: fire
Stamdk: poison

Magden: frost
Stamden: bleed

Magcro: fire+shock+frost
Stamcro: Disease

Magblade: Shadow (with new elemental effect 'darkened' - small DoT + target takes increased dmg from magical type dmg (fire, shock, magic, frost, shadow etc))
Stamblade: Physical (with new elemental effect 'Blunted' - small DoT + target takes increased dmg from direct dmg attacks)

Magplar: Light (with new elemental effect 'exposed' - small DoT + target takes increased dmg from physical type dmg (poison, physical, bleed etc))
Stamplar: air+physical+bleed

Magarc: Magic/knowledge (with new elemental effect 'know/understood' - small DoT + target takes increased dmg from other elemental status effects)
Stamarc: shadow+light+magic/knowledge

That's it for the classes - how about the sets?
Well as there are so very many sets I won't go into all of them here!
But I think they should have the same design philosophy - they should all be equally viable, which is to say they should all be 'proccable' with the same frequency as any other proc set, and assuming that is solved, should deal equivalent dmg, meaning the choice to use one set or the other should depend on preference - maybe one set is better for aoe, one for single target, one for stationary fights, one for mobile fights etc

Anyway that plenty of text already, have at it forums!

abigfishy

A long but a good read. I feel like the classes already have a strong identity.

Sorc - lightning and Daedric pets

DK - fire (mag) or poison (stam) lots of dots and strong tanking

NB - stealth and super high single target burst damage

Templar - holy damage and strong healing

Warden - animals, frost and strong healing

Necromancer - undead, necrotic and strong tanking (hard to kill cause they have the power of death)

Arcanist - arcane magic with a focus on beams

Elyu

abigfishy wrote: »

A long but a good read. I feel like the classes already have a strong identity.

Sorc - lightning and Daedric pets

DK - fire (mag) or poison (stam) lots of dots and strong tanking

NB - stealth and super high single target burst damage

Templar - holy damage and strong healing

Warden - animals, frost and strong healing

Necromancer - undead, necrotic and strong tanking (hard to kill cause they have the power of death)

Arcanist - arcane magic with a focus on beams

I see what you're getting at. I agree the classes each have a strong 'theme' as ZOS designed them, I just don't think it translates very well into PvE gameplay with a few exceptions (mag + stam dk for example)

I've been running vet dungeons and some normal trials over past few weeks as both dd and heal.....and it's the same skill setups all the time, just with the class skills swapped out, but they PLAY very similar to each other.

I think where 'theme' and 'identity' mesh well together is with arcanist heal build - that feels different, and plays in a way that matches the 'theme' of the class, where the weapon / guild skills AUGMENT the class, rather than the other way round (e.g. necro heal)

Túrin_Vidsmidr

Backbar = same for every class.
Frontbar = 1-2 dagger skills, dawnbreaker, that leaves a whopping 3 slots for class identitties.

Dack_Janiels

Your ideas for defining class identities and creating more distinct playstyles are intriguing.

Introducing new elemental effects and associated damage types could indeed bring more variety to the game. Balancing sets to make them equally viable for different situations is a commendable goal.

Remember that the dev team periodically reviews and updates the game to maintain balance and diversity. Providing feedback and ideas like yours to the official forums or through community channels can contribute to the ongoing improvement of the game.

Update 40 is supposed to have some kind of class set to get from the endless archive. so that might be something you can look forward to. We will all find out soon.

ForzaRammer

Hybrid ruined class identity

AstroST

NB idenity is now to be red light carrier.
If you need to explore a dark dungeon ask for a NB to come with you. He will bring light.

Lags

class identity is dead with hybridization, at least the way we knew it in the past. Stam sorc vs mag sorc, stam dk vs mag dk, and so on and so forth. This is gone. Yes its still there on some builds, yes you still stack into one resource pool, but the way a stamplar plays is basically the same to magplar. And its like this with nearly everything.

Class identity with the classes themselves i think is alright, when you're talking like the 6 classes we had before. But nowhere near as much as like guild wars 2 or world of warcraft. But i always looked at the game as having double the amount of classes, because of how different stam vs mag could be, and even the few hybrid playstyles that existed before it was put in by zos. Like if you played a mag sorc it was vastly different than a stam sorc.

I just think after hybridization we need more classes. 7 isnt enough.

thehilanderb14a_ESO

I’ve spent nearly my entire ESO career building “classes” by simply ignoring the meta builds and making characters around a theme, because if you aren’t worried about running vet trials and getting trifectas pretty much ANY build is viable for the normal tier content.

Loremaster Lyrellion’s Lore-Friendly Build Guide:
Https://shorturl.at/huAWY

LittlePinkDot

abigfishy wrote: »

A long but a good read. I feel like the classes already have a strong identity.

Sorc - lightning and Daedric pets

DK - fire (mag) or poison (stam) lots of dots and strong tanking

NB - stealth and super high single target burst damage

Templar - holy damage and strong healing

Warden - animals, frost and strong healing

Necromancer - undead, necrotic and strong tanking (hard to kill cause they have the power of death)

Arcanist - arcane magic with a focus on beams

People can choose to use whatever they want on any class.
My PvP arcanist doesn't even use beam. She's a poison bow build. I don't think forcing people to be shoehorned into a particular element is a good idea.

fizzylu

I feel like ESO has always had weak class design. While they clearly have concepts and ideas, their execution and the way combat works just doesn't allow them to shine.... and I do feel like things have become worse with hybridization. I still can't help rolling my eyes when I see clear stam builds using what was once considered magicka abilities.... and I hate that as someone who likes the magicka playstyle, I feel forced into stam. Especially after coming back from a break from ESO, a lot of the times I don't even know what's what in PvP. I just fight and hope for the best, which surprisingly has been working out.... but still.

Overall, I have no interest in playing ESO classes and every time they release a new one.... I just lose more and more interest in the game. I've stuck to the same character for a few years now, and it's kind of sad considering in other MMOs I character hop left and right, never able to decide on just one class. It would be nice if Zenimax could do something to bring life to classes.... but at this point I don't really believe they're capable of such a thing.

Michaelkeir

Fizzylu and Elul, I agree with both of what you said. Wholeheartedly. I feel this game has gotten away from what makes class’s unique in favor of standardizing everything. And hybridization is even worse of an ida to me. When I play a mage, I don’t want to have to use bladed weapons, and when I want to create a warrior character I don’t want to use a staff. I don’t want my warrior using magic attacks and vice versa.

merpins

I think theme and class identity is moreover one of the strong points of this game. Do you want to be a holy paladin? Play Templar. Do you want to be a cultist that worships daedra? Arcanist will do you. Do you want to be a tempest mage? Sorcerer.

The themes of the classes are good. Class identity is good. But the playstyles of ESO are very simple, thus classes can feel samey. Templar is place your dots, spam your spammable, repeat to execute. Nightblade is... Place your dots, spam your spammable, repeat to execute. Okay. Sorcerer is place your dots, spam your spammable, repeat to execute. DK? A little different here. Place your dots, use your spammable for a second, then repeat cause you have so many dots. Warden? Also a little different. Use your burst, place your dots, and spam your spammable, remembering to re-up your burst whenever it finishes, then repeat.

Classes feel the same because the gameplay loop of this game and the way classes work in this game, well, they aren't complex. All classes feel similar to play because of this, not because the class identity is bad. Not that I wouldn't like to see some changes to make classes more unique in playstyle, I would. But that won't come from adding new damage types or changing around colors. It'll come from revamping some key skills in classes.

LesserCircle

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Hybrid ruined class identity

I hated it when it was introduced and I still hate it now.

Vaqual

I really like hybridization, the bigger pool of scaling abilities really allows me to dodge the skills with ugly animations much better.
I don't care about class identity at all, as long as I am able to somehow able to create a build that fits my characters RP, without forcing me into using skills that absolutely ruin immersion.

There is just no way my character is carrying enough caltrops to throw them 500 times.

ForzaRammer

LesserCircle wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Hybrid ruined class identity

I hated it when it was introduced and I still hate it now.

Even as a tank main I hate it, simply because it make tank gameplay less distinct

Elyu

To add to this rather old thread now, another suggestion:

Why the choice for the newer classes to have 1 skill-line for each of the 3 roles - dmg, heal, tank - if all 3 feel the same.

Wouldn't it be far more interesting to create a build focussing on a particular aspect of a class and build a role out of that?

e.g. A frost warden healer, or a pet warden healer. Or a per sorc vs a lighting sorc etc And then stam/mag would then further differentiate, and then weapon choices would even further differentiate and so on.

francesinhalover

I am happy with how the game is atm.


Thanks to the system we have now, people that aren't pro (most players) or want to be pro,
have several options to make their rotations easier now and better enjoy the game, their own way.
Players love freedom after all.


If i want my rotation to be all 20 secs dots on a stamina character, i can do it now thanks to mages guild , soul skills for example,

YandereGirlfriend

Unpopular take but I have always liked hybridization.

When I came to ESO years ago I laughed out loud at concepts like "Stamina Sorcerer", as that is like a walking contradiction that had no basis whatsoever in the lore of the series.

Now, a Sorcerer is a Sorcerer without the arbitrary and forced Stam/Mag division.

HalfDragoness

Hybridization is a positive change from where the game was. Like how magicka characters only weapon choise was a staff, so all the other weapon skill tress were basically irrelivant. And that skill morph choices didn't feel like choices, as one the one that didn't use the attribute you'd prioritised was useless.

However where hybridization is right now has made the choice between magicka or stamina less of a choice in terms of playstyle and set choices.

I think what might help, in addition to your suggestions above, would be giving classes a stronger connection to an elemental or physical status effect. Like Whorl of Depths being less useful to a magDK because Whorl does frost damage and magDK's use fire damage. But there is then an equivilent set somewhere that is an excellent choice for fire damage.

I've also sort of wished that if magic users wielded greatswords and daggers that you'd be able to morph the skills to do some kind of damage that matches your class, or just use the weapons slightly differently. Equally I wish there was a way for Stamina characters to wield the staves and use them like physical weapons.

SandandStars

magsorc pvp class identity: run a zoo or die

ZhuJiuyin

SandandStars wrote: »

magsorc pvp class identity: run a zoo or die

You forget, they can still scream and run away.
At the same time, other classes complained about Magsorc's lack of sportsmanship, as they were always unwilling to fight head-on and just kept running away. And ask for the nerf Bolt Escape so they can catch up to the sorc and kill them.

What a great identity, isn't it?

MissAethe

I'm kind of mixed on the whole class identity thing, since I've always thought a couple of the classes didn't make sense.

Sorcerer in the classic sense to me isn't a Conjurer, so summoning pets never made any sense. I keep my sprc strictly pet-free and hard lightning focused since that makes more sense to me. Its weird the Sorc didn't get a Fire/Lightning/Frost skill tree more aligned to something like Skyrim/other Elder Scrolls games' destruction magic skills, since it kind of feels like that was the point of the ESO Sorc but something wend sideways in development.

Wardens feels like three separate things crammed into one, too. I don't think the vvardenfell animals makes sense alongside the plants, especially if its supposed to have a druid-esque feel (I don't think of beetles and fletcherflies when druids come up) but at least the bear makes more sense to me. But then the entire frost line. Why? A water/frost based class would've been amazing, but put together with the other two skill lines just feels weird in a way I'm not sure I can convey. As of now my two Wardens are hard-frost-only characters (frost tank and frost mage) because I hate the "aesthetics" of the other two skill lines.

I feel like the other classes are better solidly defined compared to Sorc and Warden. Everything else fits in a way that makes sense to me and nothing feels slapped on with a stapler. All of the other classes' skill trees picked a theme and followed it universally across the board. Not sure why two didn't.

YetAnotherLinuxUser

Lags wrote: »

class identity is dead with hybridization, at least the way we knew it in the past. Stam sorc vs mag sorc, stam dk vs mag dk, and so on and so forth. This is gone. Yes its still there on some builds, yes you still stack into one resource pool, but the way a stamplar plays is basically the same to magplar. And its like this with nearly everything.

it's worse than that even. on every build i'm stuck pressing the same buttons xy, ab, rt, lt ls, rs and using the same joysticks and dpad on my controller. how can i have a clear class identity with these current controllers. i mean i need to press the same bittons in the same ways or it gets confusing what i'm supposed to do and such.

/S


so the thing is that hybridization increases choices, not restricing them. OP mentioned two types of healers wihtout recognizing he mentioned two types of healers. Both stam and mag healer can choose to use a d/w or even a 2h setup with or without a healing staff and be very productive and interesting. Though good like accusing someone (me) of being a fake healer when all my non d/w 2h skills are healing skills. Without these updates, all healers except for warden are stuck with staves. It wasnt so long ago people asked for options for healers and now you've got them. Also if you are a traditional melee player and are tired of firing a bow you can sport a staff and just do heavy attacks for ranged attacks and get the bennies of using a staff. It's not wrecked identity, it's increased options. FRom someone who usu plays healers i like having my stamplar healer with 2h and d/w, or my magblade healer with healing staff and either d/w or 2h, or my stamden with bow and and d/w. Sure i still play healer with healing and destro staff (and i do). Point is i have choices and that increases the identies i can use. It's not a limitation.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

IZZEFlameLash

Hybridization wasn't the cause of class identity loss. It happened long before that. It started with ZOS taking away class iconic skills (RIP wings and actual non-ramping cost Streaks, stronger shields and my 20k frag procs) and nerfing+raising the cost of those skills in tandem if not outright replacing them. Then we, players, asked for homogenization since it was apparent that ZOS was taking PvP towards the burst damage only environment while ZOS kept buffing skills no one wanted buffed like Stone Giants.

What hybridization did was to eliminate the divide between stamina and magicka specs and let players choose best morphs. Frankly, while magicka specs had all the utility, didn't mean stam builds had huge trouble accessing them all. And those utility class skills often didn't scale off of any stats except for already less impactful damage parts. So, stam setups had the benefit of those class utility skills, and strong healing from Vigor.

On the contrary, magicka didn't have any of the benefit from stam utility skills because there were basically none and had random target HoTs unless specificied to be hitting you AND others and pretty much all the commonly used Restoration line skills were all about random targetting. This was all the while lacking damage compared to their stam counterpart. There's a reason why any serious sweaty gamers all played stam specs for their mains.

Frankly, I am glad that sort of divide is no longer a thing. And with hybridization, I feel that I can at least play the classes as the way classes were intended, what's left of them anyways after all the ZOS nerfs, and homogenization players sought as a result.

Zodiarkslayer

I think it is important to understand that identity is a personal concept. I guess everyone has a different view on classes and identity.
And we need to accept that our views on the classes isn't necessarily the same as the vision ZOS has for them.

That being said, ESO would benefit from more damage types, that give more status effects. Even better, if those new types synergise with class passives and class abilities then use damage types.

Every Warden knows that this is true!

Arnoldthehawk

Elder Scrolls shouldn't have classes at all, the identity goes to the player to choose, the developers should make the abilities interesting and unique for their school, not balancing around made up classes in a game that got famous by the very freedom of building your character by choosing schools that you are interested in.

Erickson9610

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

Elder Scrolls shouldn't have classes at all, the identity goes to the player to choose, the developers should make the abilities interesting and unique for their school, not balancing around made up classes in a game that got famous by the very freedom of building your character by choosing schools that you are interested in.

In earlier Elder Scrolls games, classes existed to give players a headstart to the particular kind of playstyle that they wanted to go for. Players could also opt to make a "custom" class, in which they chose the particular skills which are boosted from the beginning. TES V: Skyrim did away with classes in favor of presenting Standing Stones which would give you a boost to experience gain for certain skill trees.

Regardless of your choice in class or Standing Stone, you could always train your other skill trees and stats to become an entirely different kind of character. ESO, as an MMORPG, takes a different approach by not allowing you to draw from every class skill line, but still allows you to play any role or playstyle on the same character.

Classes rely on having certain strengths and weaknesses over other classes to make combat encounters more interesting, since it would get mundane if everyone ran the exact same skills. If ESO was perfectly balanced, then it'd be like a game of checkers (where each player is on a level playing field), rather than like a game of roshambo (where each player can be at advantage, disadvantage, or on a level playing field) — sometimes, that advantage or disadvantage is what makes a game feel interesting to play.

Hotdog_23

According to ESO here
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/classes

This appears to be the Theme for each class.

Arcanists - Master forbidden knowledge and manipulate arcane energies, ancient runes, and lost tomes as the Arcanist. Draw power not intended for mortal use and weave destructive, restorative, or defensive magics that are further empowered by the unique Crux system. Available with the Necrom Chapter.
As an Arcanist, knowledge is the key to power beyond understanding.

Necromancer’s - All of Tamriel’s dead are a resource for you to manipulate and exploit, as nothing is forbidden for those who seek to master the dark arts. The Necromancer Class brings a unique style of play to The Elder Scrolls Online, allowing you to summon the undead and make use of corpses to overwhelm your enemies and empower your attacks. Available with the Elsweyr Chapter or Necromancer Class upgrade in the Crown Store.
When playing as a Necromancer, death itself is a weapon.

Wardens - Manipulate the wilds and summon powerful beasts with the Warden, a versatile Class that draws from the power of nature itself. When playing a Warden character, you can unleash the fury of the wilds upon unsuspecting intruders, wrap your allies in the healing power of the Green, and encase yourself in impenetrable, protective frost. Available with the Morrowind Chapter or Warden Class upgrade in the Crown Store.
As a Warden, Tamriel's beasts and wilds are yours to command.

DragonKnights - Burn your foes in cleansing flame and withstand almost any assault with the Dragonknight, a fiery, unrelenting Class that thrives in the heart of battle. The Dragonknight Class allows you to win the war of attrition with abilities that draw power from both the earth and the beasts of myth while overpowering your foes with ferocious Fire spells. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
With the Dragonknight, you bring ruin in the form of molten metal and fire.

Sorcerers - The horrors of Oblivion and the power of lightning itself are yours to command with the Sorcerer Class. As a Sorcerer, unlimited power is at your fingertips, allowing you to call powerful lightning strikes from above, support your allies, suppress your enemies, or overwhelm your foes with Daedric monsters. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
When wielding the full strength of the Sorcerer Class, all will fear your power.

Nightblades - Attack from the shadows, drain your foes' health, and vanish into the void with the Nightblade Class. The shadows truly are your greatest weapon as you wield abilities that deal devastating damage at any range and siphon your victim's lifeforce to your allies. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
As a Nightblade, all of Tamriel fears your deadly unseen strike.

Templars - Seeking darkness whether it might be found, the Templar is a beacon to their allies and a blinding threat to their foes. As a Templar, you must bring justice to Tamriel in the form of cleansing light. Call forth the limitless power of the sun to obliterate your enemies and restore yourself and your allies in radiant light. Available with The Elder Scrolls Online base game.
When playing a Templar, you'll always light the way.

CameraBeardThePirate

Arnoldthehawk wrote: »

Elder Scrolls shouldn't have classes at all, the identity goes to the player to choose, the developers should make the abilities interesting and unique for their school, not balancing around made up classes in a game that got famous by the very freedom of building your character by choosing schools that you are interested in.

Lol what? Every Elder Scrolls game up until Skyrim had classes.