Templar Jabs...Brutality, Breach or Force what if...

Zama666 · December 2023

Hello,

If jabs was changed from Major Brutality to Major Force (Critical +20%) or Major Breach (Penetration +20%), how much of a change would this make for Templar?

Yes, I still jab, does a little AoE, cc, and it is cheap. I don't mind the change since u37(?) because all classes have their meta day.

How ever, theory crafters....

In PVE?
For me in PVE, brutality is fine because there are mobs that are so easy to destroy anyhow, breach or crit seems like a waste, just gimme plain old damage
For bosses....I think I like Brutality. Bosses usually have annoying mobs that need to be wiped out quickly, currently jabs works fine for me

In PVP?
I am kind of leaning towards Pen or Crit because there is so much variability with players. But they all seem to have high resistances.
Crit with jabs might be better for burst damage?

Maybe give minor brutality, breach and pen? too much? What about giving up the cc? or two of the 3?

Thoughts?

Tankz,

Z

notyuu · December 2023

Ok, so flipping jabs from applying major brutaility to applying major force would be overkill, given that +20% crit damage is nuts strong....

also major breach is -5.9K armour on target, not +20% penetration, which again, would be overkill

but none of those would solve the problem of jabs which boils down to power per hit vs total output, which is fine in PvE if a little *eh* but in PvP it basically gets its damage deleted by major evasion, so the key fix there would simply making the single target part of the jabs into...ya know, SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE, thus not eaten up my the evasion buff

carolingnight · December 2023

I wish jabs could go back to Major Savagery... and revert back to the old animation.

boi_anachronism_ · December 2023

Zama666 wrote: »

Hello,

If jabs was changed from Major Brutality to Major Force (Critical +20%) or Major Breach (Penetration +20%), how much of a change would this make for Templar?

Yes, I still jab, does a little AoE, cc, and it is cheap. I don't mind the change since u37(?) because all classes have their meta day.

How ever, theory crafters....

In PVE?
For me in PVE, brutality is fine because there are mobs that are so easy to destroy anyhow, breach or crit seems like a waste, just gimme plain old damage
For bosses....I think I like Brutality. Bosses usually have annoying mobs that need to be wiped out quickly, currently jabs works fine for me

In PVP?
I am kind of leaning towards Pen or Crit because there is so much variability with players. But they all seem to have high resistances.
Crit with jabs might be better for burst damage?

Maybe give minor brutality, breach and pen? too much? What about giving up the cc? or two of the 3?

Thoughts?

Tankz,

Z

Cant say im in any way in favor of breach.. it would royally unbalance pvp and do almost nothing for pve since the tanks apply breach to everything no matter what. In a decent group you got collosus which is aoe vuln. It really wouldnt make much of a difference. the one outlier situation i can think of would be that it would be useful for portals. Major force? Well it would be a hoot but obviously insanely unbalanced for a spammable. Hard pass from me overall.

Necrotech_Master · December 2023

if it applied breach it would be a major nerf for PVE, since the pen isnt needed

i also kind of prefer it having brutality because i get savagery from the camo hunter, which can also give me minor berserk, and that this is a passive skill instead of me needing to keep activating momentum to keep brutality up

so i actually kind of like it as is, its not really too hard to build in pen, especially on a templar you can just use stuhns and get a unique 5k pen on top of whatever else you have for just using the spear gap closer

Sluggy · December 2023

Minor brutality would be somewhat redundant since you already get minor sorcery on the class. Major Force would be great. I'd love to absolutely dominate every person I see with crit-cap on my templar. But I think that might not fall into the fair or balanced categories so let's avoid that too. Honestly I think it's fine like it is. Yeah, I know lots of people complain about it but I'm going to be my usual contrarian self here and say it's all just sour grapes. Previously jabs was far-and-away the most powerful spammable by an absolutely massive margin. Literally using any skill other than jabs was reducing your damage output by a massive amount. Now it's just a really good spammable that requires some setup and situational awareness. I like brutality because it means I don't need to run rally on my backbar nor do I need brutality potions which allows for those much needed tri-pots.

Zama666 · December 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Zama666 wrote: »

Hello,

If jabs was changed from Major Brutality to Major Force (Critical +20%) or Major Breach (Penetration +20%), how much of a change would this make for Templar?

Yes, I still jab, does a little AoE, cc, and it is cheap. I don't mind the change since u37(?) because all classes have their meta day.

How ever, theory crafters....

In PVE?
For me in PVE, brutality is fine because there are mobs that are so easy to destroy anyhow, breach or crit seems like a waste, just gimme plain old damage
For bosses....I think I like Brutality. Bosses usually have annoying mobs that need to be wiped out quickly, currently jabs works fine for me

In PVP?
I am kind of leaning towards Pen or Crit because there is so much variability with players. But they all seem to have high resistances.
Crit with jabs might be better for burst damage?

Maybe give minor brutality, breach and pen? too much? What about giving up the cc? or two of the 3?

Thoughts?

Tankz,

Z

Cant say im in any way in favor of breach.. it would royally unbalance pvp and do almost nothing for pve since the tanks apply breach to everything no matter what. In a decent group you got collosus which is aoe vuln. It really wouldnt make much of a difference. the one outlier situation i can think of would be that it would be useful for portals. Major force? Well it would be a hoot but obviously insanely unbalanced for a spammable. Hard pass from me overall.

Why would Breach unbalance PvP?

Sluggy · December 2023

Zama666 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Zama666 wrote: »

Hello,

If jabs was changed from Major Brutality to Major Force (Critical +20%) or Major Breach (Penetration +20%), how much of a change would this make for Templar?

Yes, I still jab, does a little AoE, cc, and it is cheap. I don't mind the change since u37(?) because all classes have their meta day.

How ever, theory crafters....

In PVE?
For me in PVE, brutality is fine because there are mobs that are so easy to destroy anyhow, breach or crit seems like a waste, just gimme plain old damage
For bosses....I think I like Brutality. Bosses usually have annoying mobs that need to be wiped out quickly, currently jabs works fine for me

In PVP?
I am kind of leaning towards Pen or Crit because there is so much variability with players. But they all seem to have high resistances.
Crit with jabs might be better for burst damage?

Maybe give minor brutality, breach and pen? too much? What about giving up the cc? or two of the 3?

Thoughts?

Tankz,

Z

Cant say im in any way in favor of breach.. it would royally unbalance pvp and do almost nothing for pve since the tanks apply breach to everything no matter what. In a decent group you got collosus which is aoe vuln. It really wouldnt make much of a difference. the one outlier situation i can think of would be that it would be useful for portals. Major force? Well it would be a hoot but obviously insanely unbalanced for a spammable. Hard pass from me overall.

Why would Breach unbalance PvP?

The nightblade spammable used to give breech. They removed it for a reason. Major debuffs attached to spammables is a bad idea.

frogthroat · December 2023

Major Force would mean you lose the benefit from Aggressive Horn and Saxheel in trials.
Major Breach would be redundant with Caltrops and Ele Sus. And in trials/dungeons with Pierce Armor.
Major Savagery can be from Vampire's Bane (class skill), Camo Hunter or Inner Light.

Major Brutality... for this you would need either Mages Guild levelling (Degen) or use 2h (Rally). Force, Breach and Savagery are easy to obtain. If jabs didn't give you Brutality, your options would be limited to either 2h weapon or a magicka skill from Mages Guild.

Jabs + Vampire's Bane/Camo Hunter and you can use tristats instead of weapon power pots.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · December 2023

carolingnight wrote: »

I wish jabs could go back to Major Savagery... and revert back to the old animation.

I prefer the buff as is to be honest.

Made Rally redundant, but allowed us to replace it with Cammo Hunter which is boosting everything.
The later is giving Minor Berserk in addition to Major Savagery and +3% Weapon/Spell Damage with Slayer passive (and added to 3% from Drawnbreaker Ultimate) which is compounded with the Major Brutality. And everything stacks to the Beam, stampede, Jabs, deadly cloak (back bar), POL you name it.

As for animation, yes want the old animation back.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · December 2023

Zama666 wrote: »

Hello,

If jabs was changed from Major Brutality to Major Force (Critical +20%) or Major Breach (Penetration +20%), how much of a change would this make for Templar?

Templars have access to Major Breach through Power of the Light which is MANDATORY to keep up all the time for the damage boost not just the Major Breach.

So why we need second Major Breach? If someone wants AOE Major Breach use Caltrops from backbar.

Also to get Major Brutality would require to front bar Rally or Hidden Blade which means removing Cammo Hunter.

So your proposal is for +15% Crit Damage have -12% Crit Chance, -3% Weapon Damage and additional Stamina usage?

In detail :
ADD
+20% Crit Damage

REMOVE
-3% Weapon Damage (1 level of Slayer)
-12% Crit Chance (Major Savagery and Prophecy)
-5% Critical Damage (Minor Berserk on flanks)
-189 Stamina per Second On your Stamina Regen number shown in game deduct 378 which means losing 30%+ STA Regen for most Stamina Templars

If someone is baffled for the latter, Rally & Hidden Blade require 3780 Stamina to keep up every 20 seconds, Cammo Hunter bonuses are FREE!

Also there is no other skill to remove from Stamplar front bar to mitigate as
Jabs + 1 weapon skill (Stampede for 2h, Deadly Cloak for DW) + Cammo Hunter + Radiant Glory/Oppression taking the 4 slots, with the 5th slot competing with Power of the Light/Caltrops, Beast Trap, Solar Barrage, Rune, Repentance, Vigor/Bol.

Which are already competing for the 4 slots on the back bar too with the 5th been the back bar weapon skill for the buff.

Regardless any combination, the proposal for change the Jabs is a huge nerf to the class, not only the skill itself.

Better start using Wrecking Blow like the 2h NBs then. But If we wanted Wrecking Blow would play NB not Templar with the signature Jabs spammable.

boi_anachronism_ · December 2023

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Zama666 wrote: »

Hello,

If jabs was changed from Major Brutality to Major Force (Critical +20%) or Major Breach (Penetration +20%), how much of a change would this make for Templar?

Templars have access to Major Breach through Power of the Light which is MANDATORY to keep up all the time for the damage boost not just the Major Breach.

So why we need second Major Breach? If someone wants AOE Major Breach use Caltrops from backbar.

Also to get Major Brutality would require to front bar Rally or Hidden Blade which means removing Cammo Hunter.

So your proposal is for +15% Crit Damage have -12% Crit Chance, -3% Weapon Damage and additional Stamina usage?

In detail :
ADD
+20% Crit Damage

REMOVE
-3% Weapon Damage (1 level of Slayer)
-12% Crit Chance (Major Savagery and Prophecy)
-5% Critical Damage (Minor Berserk on flanks)
-189 Stamina per Second On your Stamina Regen number shown in game deduct 378 which means losing 30%+ STA Regen for most Stamina Templars

If someone is baffled for the latter, Rally & Hidden Blade require 3780 Stamina to keep up every 20 seconds, Cammo Hunter bonuses are FREE!

Also there is no other skill to remove from Stamplar front bar to mitigate as
Jabs + 1 weapon skill (Stampede for 2h, Deadly Cloak for DW) + Cammo Hunter + Radiant Glory/Oppression taking the 4 slots, with the 5th slot competing with Power of the Light/Caltrops, Beast Trap, Solar Barrage, Rune, Repentance, Vigor/Bol.

Which are already competing for the 4 slots on the back bar too with the 5th been the back bar weapon skill for the buff.

Regardless any combination, the proposal for change the Jabs is a huge nerf to the
class, not only the skill itself.

Better start using Wrecking Blow like the 2h NBs then. But If we wanted Wrecking Blow would play NB not Templar with the signature Jabs spammable.

So PoL is minor breach but granting major breach from a spammable for 10 seconds is huge. 2.5x as long as trap. especially taking into consideration that pol gives you minor which basically all plars run. Now wardens have shalks which do carry both for 10 seconds but the big difference here is that it has a 3 second delay making it easy to avoid and wardens also dont have burst plars do. I see that as being pretty questionable.

ZOS_Volpe · December 2023

Greetings,

We've gone ahead and moved this thread to a category we think is more suitable for this topic, Combat & Character Mechanics.

Thanks for your understanding.

Necrotech_Master · December 2023

Sluggy wrote: »

Zama666 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Zama666 wrote: »

Hello,

If jabs was changed from Major Brutality to Major Force (Critical +20%) or Major Breach (Penetration +20%), how much of a change would this make for Templar?

Yes, I still jab, does a little AoE, cc, and it is cheap. I don't mind the change since u37(?) because all classes have their meta day.

How ever, theory crafters....

In PVE?
For me in PVE, brutality is fine because there are mobs that are so easy to destroy anyhow, breach or crit seems like a waste, just gimme plain old damage
For bosses....I think I like Brutality. Bosses usually have annoying mobs that need to be wiped out quickly, currently jabs works fine for me

In PVP?
I am kind of leaning towards Pen or Crit because there is so much variability with players. But they all seem to have high resistances.
Crit with jabs might be better for burst damage?

Maybe give minor brutality, breach and pen? too much? What about giving up the cc? or two of the 3?

Thoughts?

Tankz,

Z

Cant say im in any way in favor of breach.. it would royally unbalance pvp and do almost nothing for pve since the tanks apply breach to everything no matter what. In a decent group you got collosus which is aoe vuln. It really wouldnt make much of a difference. the one outlier situation i can think of would be that it would be useful for portals. Major force? Well it would be a hoot but obviously insanely unbalanced for a spammable. Hard pass from me overall.

Why would Breach unbalance PvP?

The nightblade spammable used to give breech. They removed it for a reason. Major debuffs attached to spammables is a bad idea.

surprise attack does still do breach, it does minor breach though (applied through the sundered status effect), which is guaranteed on hit of surprise attack