Too many bad healers in dungeons

Soarora · September 2023

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Some people regard player who has 1 slot share healing skill as real healer.
Oh, come on! Stop those nonsense post. 70% PUG healer is sucks in dungeon.

Healer who can't do effective emergency healing at the dangerous situation is
"FAKE HEALER". Healer doesn't have sharing damage buff is also "FAKE HEALER".

And I've seen many of crappy healer who let DD down so easily, and brain dead mostly.

Healer who doesn't do effective emergency healing at the dangerous situation could be a bad healer. Healer that doesn't have damage buff could also be a bad healer. Bad healers exist, they're not immediately fake. A fake healer is a DPS who's queueing as a healer (yes, my definition is the same for fake DPS: a healer or tank queued as a DPS). Having echoing vigor on their bar doesn't make them a real healer, but having it and a group burst heal means at least they are fulfilling the role. Unfortunately, real healers aren't always necessary in dungeons... but that is where people get caught. They think they can carry the group and aren't aware of hidden healchecks because they're used to running it with a healer or with a good group.

Anyways, I don't pay attention to how good healers are most of the time. Sometimes I get orb, sometimes I don't.

FrancisCrawford · September 2023

I'm a fairly casual dungeon PUG healer -- the hardest content I'll queue for would be vWGT.

etchedpixels wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

After healing for 2 years, i've been tanking dungeons for several weeks and realized there are a lot of bad healers.
1/3 of healers are DDs with only self heal slotted, even on veteran.

They are not healers. They are people abusing the queues to get a faster than DD queue time.

1/3 of healers are not using spell power cure set, a must-have set for healers. I can see a big difference in my own damage when this set is not present.
1/3 of healers are using Hollowfang set, which is mostly useless: 6 meters effect radius and restores only magicka (a lot of DDs are stamina, tank needs mostly stamina).

Whilst SPC is a very good set it's one a lot of players won't have ground dungeons to get. It's also btw not true that tanks always mostly need stamina, there are plenty of magtanks in the world too.

Many healers are not stacking HoTs and dont know how to emergent burst heal (lots of dead healers and DDs).
For dungeons, i consider Spell Power Cure + Powerful Assault + Symphony of Blades to be BIS: +730 weapon/spell damage and main resource regeneration when needed. Haven't yet met a healer using this combo.

So I have a bunch of fancy healing sets and staves (master's, black rose etc). In normal dungeon content I don't normally run most of them because it's not what the group actually needs.

1. They don't need that many heals, even when doing DS2
2. For a four man dungeon I can either give two DDs a damage buff or deal damage. Guess which is the win. Trials are different. In a trial I'm buffing 8 or 9 DDs for damage.

So I generally run winters respite and proc it with exploding wall flipping back to the masters resto now and then to top people up and keep up combat prayer. I don't need a second healer set and I spend most of my time blowing up trash instead.

It's not even obvious that casting Combat Prayer is worthwhile in a 4-person PUG.

FrancisCrawford · September 2023

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

there are too many bad healers in dungeons because they arent needed that much. If there was enough pressure to git gut, players would git gut (at least some of them).

Enemy's damage in dungs is usually too low, and self-heals too good, so true healer isnt needed in 95% of cases.

Damage gap between good DD and some casual PVEer/typical PVPer is so big that using damage/sustain buffs/sets is a risk (you can actually lower chances to finish the dung if you go full support instead going DD).

It's a game design flaw.

Enemy damage isn't just too low, it's often also too high, resulting in one shot mechanics that can't be mitigated with healing.

Also, while I totally agree with you about support sets, I think there is one exception. As long as you aren't getting Major Courage somewhere else (which is likely, because Major Courage has so few sources), SPC is both a support set and an above average DPS set for anyone with even a minimal amount of healing. Compare the 5 piece bonus of SPC to the 5 piece bonus of Julianos. As long as you're overhealing regularly, SPC is better, even solo. Unfortunately, this results in terrible build diversity for healers, because SPC is almost always the obvious best option and has been for years. (At least the DPS meta tends to change over time.) That said, I don't run SPC on all of my healers because, while SPC is best, I'd rather have fun trying different things than always focus on being optimized.

My highest ever dummy parse was wearing SPC.

FrancisCrawford · September 2023

It took me a while to realize this is an old-ish thread.

But then, I haven't healed much for a year or more.

But when I did, I figured that a burst heal plus a HoT to proc SPC plus Shards/Orb was enough for any dungeons I did. (I.e., vet base game or IC, normal anything else.)

One problem is that other things depend on the group. E.g., bringing a debuff a tank "should" bring is useless if the tank does bring it, but great if the tank doesn't. Magickasteal is nice for some group compositions and useless for others, and who'd go into a PUG actually needing it anyway? (Unless the bring it themselves.)

And of course, few dungeon PUGs give time for discussion and rebuilding at the start of a run.

wilykcat · September 2023

This thread is from last year 2022.

I don't really think there are bad healers but there is such thing as making silly mistakes. 😜

svendf · September 2023

Paramedicus wrote: »

there are too many bad healers in dungeons because they arent needed that much. If there was enough pressure to git gut, players would git gut (at least some of them).

Enemy's damage in dungs is usually too low, and self-heals too good, so true healer isnt needed in 95% of cases.

Damage gap between good DD and some casual PVEer/typical PVPer is so big that using damage/sustain buffs/sets is a risk (you can actually lower chances to finish the dung if you go full support instead going DD).

It's a game design flaw.

Bulls Eye ! Right there

Damage isn´t alway´s low. Depends on content ofc. Other than that. Yes people give up, don´t get much healer time. Some come back giving it another try. Some refuse to give up, and have to pay the price.

Yes it´s a big design problem.

EA coming out in 4.0 is good help for tanks to get some time in a duo situation. Healers on the other hand. We know that don´t we ?

Thank You

AvalonRanger · October 2023

Consider healing support amount, my healer character is the best healer
among the random PUG 4 men mission so far. I have big confidence saying like that.
If I can use both my tank and healer character at once. We're ultimate duo.
(And I'm doing damage buff support also.)
Not just building style or gear, but also my playing style is the best healer.

"Too many bad healers in dungeons"

Yea, agree. It is very rare case to meet skillful healer in PUG.
Well, skillful player don't use PUG anyway...I want to quit PUG life If I can.
And want to have daily partner for grouping mission.

LFG great tank or healer, and tactical nice DD.

Araneae6537 · October 2023

I love playing healer, used to queue for random dungeons all the time, usually Symphony, SPC, plus another set, with many options besides (mostly for trials, but I have them!)

The main discouragement to me is the general feeling I’ve gotten that healers are neither needed nor wanted in a dungeon and most groups would rather go tank plus three DD.

So does this mean I should queue with both heal and DD builds prepared? To not be fake on the one hand or unwanted on the other?

I miss the days when tanks especially would add me to their friends list to run dungeons with.

AvalonRanger · October 2023

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Consider healing support amount, my healer character is the best healer
among the random PUG 4 men mission so far. I have big confidence saying like that.
If I can use both my tank and healer character at once. We're ultimate duo.
(And I'm doing damage buff support also.)
Not just building style or gear, but also my playing style is the best healer.

"Too many bad healers in dungeons"

Yea, agree. It is very rare case to meet skillful healer in PUG.
Well, skillful player don't use PUG anyway...I want to quit PUG life If I can.
And want to have daily partner for grouping mission.

LFG great tank or healer, and tactical nice DD.

"Not just building style or gear, but also my playing style is the best healer."

Because, I've been tank main player enough long time.
So, I know "which timing does tank need healing help, or what is lethal for the DD".
Basically, good tank keeps watching field by wide view to find dangerous foe.

According to my group mission experience, 90% PUG healer is brain dead.
Technically not fake, but almost fake.

Vaqual · October 2023

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I love playing healer, used to queue for random dungeons all the time, usually Symphony, SPC, plus another set, with many options besides (mostly for trials, but I have them!)

The main discouragement to me is the general feeling I’ve gotten that healers are neither needed nor wanted in a dungeon and most groups would rather go tank plus three DD.

So does this mean I should queue with both heal and DD builds prepared? To not be fake on the one hand or unwanted on the either?

I miss the days when tanks especially would add me to their friends list to run dungeons with.

This is a normal thing. It has happened in every single MMO I have played over time. A bit of powercreep is unavoidable, even if progression is horizontal. It just keeps the game interesting, and realistically it is ok if older content gets easier. I think you are more or less right, you should be prepared see when the group is benefitting from heals and when it is better to DPS. I have always found that is the mark of a good healer. I have a low opinion of meta esotherics, oftentimes just not overhealing and instead heavy weaving a spammable can already be a good thing. Basically doing the right thing half-assed is better than doing the wrong thing with fervour. If you ask me you don't need to change builds for that.

Soarora · October 2023

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I love playing healer, used to queue for random dungeons all the time, usually Symphony, SPC, plus another set, with many options besides (mostly for trials, but I have them!)

The main discouragement to me is the general feeling I’ve gotten that healers are neither needed nor wanted in a dungeon and most groups would rather go tank plus three DD.

So does this mean I should queue with both heal and DD builds prepared? To not be fake on the one hand or unwanted on the either?

I miss the days when tanks especially would add me to their friends list to run dungeons with.

I totally understand what you mean. Its something I suffered with when I was a healer main. Part of why I’m not a healer main anymore. Seems like one of the answers zos has to this is a heal debuff on the tank they themselves can’t heal out of or can’t heal out of fast enough.

AvalonRanger · October 2023

Skillful real healer population is lesser than DD like the real tank population.

So, some DD disguise them as healer which is almost fake healer build, and
try to skip long waiting time. Just slot orb or something with healing rod.
I've seen those instance crappy healer so many times in the Vet pledge,
and mostly kill every ally of them, then wiped. Disgusting irresponsible players.

This is the major reason why crappy PUG healer never end.

ceruulean · October 2023

Araneae6537 wrote: »

The main discouragement to me is the general feeling I’ve gotten that healers are neither needed nor wanted in a dungeon and most groups would rather go tank plus three DD.

I've been trying to do some dungeon vet HM but still haven't cleared one yet. We get to almost 5% hp and then something stupid happens and I die to random *** as a tank. The main culprit is lack of dps. Heals and resource sustain with synergies are important but what kills me are adds piling up and blocking my vision. So it's not just healer's problem, if the dds are weak it's really bad. Hence why the healer is better off as a semi-support, with enough AOE to kill adds.

Ardriel · November 2023

You hardly need healers in dungeons anymore. Not in normal ones anyway, and even most vet DLC dungeons can be played with 3 dps without hm - assuming people know their stuff, including tanks. A third, half-decent dps pushes the total damage more than Spell Power Cure and PA. Even if they use a healing skill. Ofc a fake healer should bring synergies. But there are plenty of them. As for Hollow Fang, I think it's absolutely ok for 4-man dungeons. Magicka reg is good. If the healer uses worm cult, you wouldn't complain, would you? As a tank you also need a lot of magicka.
If you can play your class properly and avoid unnecessary damage, you shouldn't depend on a healer.

svendf · November 2023

Ardriel wrote: »

You hardly need healers in dungeons anymore. Not in normal ones anyway, and even most vet DLC dungeons can be played with 3 dps without hm - assuming people know their stuff, including tanks. A third, half-decent dps pushes the total damage more than Spell Power Cure and PA. Even if they use a healing skill. Ofc a fake healer should bring synergies. But there are plenty of them. As for Hollow Fang, I think it's absolutely ok for 4-man dungeons. Magicka reg is good. If the healer uses worm cult, you wouldn't complain, would you? As a tank you also need a lot of magicka.
If you can play your class properly and avoid unnecessary damage, you shouldn't depend on a healer.

So you recommend ZoS to get rid of healers ? I mean, the way you explain things. Am I wrong ? For me personal I don´t care, as I play another Mmo, where everything is well balanced, and very well done.

I also want to point out. There are player´s in Eso, who main a healer, and don´t find playing a tank or DD, fun. Others do also play a healer, as that´s the only way to be part of the content Eso can offer them, in terms of dungeons and trial content.

As I did mention, I don´t care, there are another Mmo out there I play for that sort of content and more.

It would be pretty nice if you explain yourself a bit more, because the way I see it. ZoS should do mere for healers, and do them more dependent in group content, doesn´t matter, which level it is.

Personally I don´t beleive they will get rid of healers - but dear crist, they are so bad at balancing, to make healers as important as other roles. I know there are content in Eso (HM DLC runs), which many can´t do without a healer.

You can´t have a game, where only 5- 10% of the harder content can´t be done without a healer, It looks realy bad if you look at the leading Mmo`s out there.

Let me hear your side of it.

AvalonRanger · November 2023

New U40 group finder tool couldn't solve bad role problem perfectly.
[snip]
[edited for bashing]

svendf · November 2023

Quality require doing content, and getting to know it. The story aint longer than that.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I love playing healer, used to queue for random dungeons all the time, usually Symphony, SPC, plus another set, with many options besides (mostly for trials, but I have them!)

The main discouragement to me is the general feeling I’ve gotten that healers are neither needed nor wanted in a dungeon and most groups would rather go tank plus three DD.

So does this mean I should queue with both heal and DD builds prepared? To not be fake on the one hand or unwanted on the either?

I miss the days when tanks especially would add me to their friends list to run dungeons with.

I totally understand what you mean. Its something I suffered with when I was a healer main. Part of why I’m not a healer main anymore. Seems like one of the answers zos has to this is a heal debuff on the tank they themselves can’t heal out of or can’t heal out of fast enough.

That would be pretty tough for a lot of trials though where in many cases the tank pretty much needs to self sustain. Maybe for 4man only this could work. Idk. It would make it real hard on new tanks.

Araneae6537 · November 2023

Game mechanics that discourage healers:

In many dungeons, enemies hit like overcooked noodles or one-shot. So the healer is mostly buff-bot and resources, the importance of which vary by patch and current flavor of DD.
Nerfs to heals in response to all the complaints about people who have the gall to play PvP as an organized group.
Changes to both sets and abilities so that buffs and heals no longer effect allies but only players in group. Of course this is unimportant in a grouped dungeon, but if people increasingly can’t contribute in the role in open world, they may not bother with the role at all.

The attitude is reflected in the community as exhibited in zone chat last night:

Player #1 announced they were a healer looking for a group to run pledges with.
Player #2 “Healers are useless.”
Player #3 “Here’s your healer: [Ring of the Pale Order]”

Ardriel · November 2023

svendf wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

You hardly need healers in dungeons anymore. Not in normal ones anyway, and even most vet DLC dungeons can be played with 3 dps without hm - assuming people know their stuff, including tanks. A third, half-decent dps pushes the total damage more than Spell Power Cure and PA. Even if they use a healing skill. Ofc a fake healer should bring synergies. But there are plenty of them. As for Hollow Fang, I think it's absolutely ok for 4-man dungeons. Magicka reg is good. If the healer uses worm cult, you wouldn't complain, would you? As a tank you also need a lot of magicka.
If you can play your class properly and avoid unnecessary damage, you shouldn't depend on a healer.

So you recommend ZoS to get rid of healers ? I mean, the way you explain things. Am I wrong ? For me personal I don´t care, as I play another Mmo, where everything is well balanced, and very well done.

I also want to point out. There are player´s in Eso, who main a healer, and don´t find playing a tank or DD, fun. Others do also play a healer, as that´s the only way to be part of the content Eso can offer them, in terms of dungeons and trial content.

As I did mention, I don´t care, there are another Mmo out there I play for that sort of content and more.

It would be pretty nice if you explain yourself a bit more, because the way I see it. ZoS should do mere for healers, and do them more dependent in group content, doesn´t matter, which level it is.

Personally I don´t beleive they will get rid of healers - but dear crist, they are so bad at balancing, to make healers as important as other roles. I know there are content in Eso (HM DLC runs), which many can´t do without a healer.

You can´t have a game, where only 5- 10% of the harder content can´t be done without a healer, It looks realy bad if you look at the leading Mmo`s out there.

Let me hear your side of it.

No, actually I think it's a shame that healers are no longer needed in dungeons. The dungeons should be designed so that EVERY role is needed. Even on normal. Then the fake healer/tank problem would no longer exist. Playing healers is also fun. But not if you have the feeling of being completely useless. There's too much damage in the game. They keep trying to change that, but the opposite is achieved. I see 250k+ group damage often enough. Even with healers. The fight is over so quickly that you don't need healing.

svendf · November 2023

Ardriel wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

You hardly need healers in dungeons anymore. Not in normal ones anyway, and even most vet DLC dungeons can be played with 3 dps without hm - assuming people know their stuff, including tanks. A third, half-decent dps pushes the total damage more than Spell Power Cure and PA. Even if they use a healing skill. Ofc a fake healer should bring synergies. But there are plenty of them. As for Hollow Fang, I think it's absolutely ok for 4-man dungeons. Magicka reg is good. If the healer uses worm cult, you wouldn't complain, would you? As a tank you also need a lot of magicka.
If you can play your class properly and avoid unnecessary damage, you shouldn't depend on a healer.

So you recommend ZoS to get rid of healers ? I mean, the way you explain things. Am I wrong ? For me personal I don´t care, as I play another Mmo, where everything is well balanced, and very well done.

I also want to point out. There are player´s in Eso, who main a healer, and don´t find playing a tank or DD, fun. Others do also play a healer, as that´s the only way to be part of the content Eso can offer them, in terms of dungeons and trial content.

As I did mention, I don´t care, there are another Mmo out there I play for that sort of content and more.

It would be pretty nice if you explain yourself a bit more, because the way I see it. ZoS should do mere for healers, and do them more dependent in group content, doesn´t matter, which level it is.

Personally I don´t beleive they will get rid of healers - but dear crist, they are so bad at balancing, to make healers as important as other roles. I know there are content in Eso (HM DLC runs), which many can´t do without a healer.

You can´t have a game, where only 5- 10% of the harder content can´t be done without a healer, It looks realy bad if you look at the leading Mmo`s out there.

Let me hear your side of it.

No, actually I think it's a shame that healers are no longer needed in dungeons. The dungeons should be designed so that EVERY role is needed. Even on normal. Then the fake healer/tank problem would no longer exist. Playing healers is also fun. But not if you have the feeling of being completely useless. There's too much damage in the game. They keep trying to change that, but the opposite is achieved. I see 250k+ group damage often enough. Even with healers. The fight is over so quickly that you don't need healing.

Thank You I agree on everything you said. My bad I misunderstod - sorry about that.

Ardriel · November 2023

svendf wrote: »

Thank You I agree on everything you said. My bad I misunderstod - sorry about that.

No, no, not at all. My post was a little unclear.

AvalonRanger · November 2023

I've never meet better healer than my healer in PUG mission so far...
People regard themselves as "real healer" because of only gear and building matter.

Oh my god.

Why most of healer(I don't think that they are real healer though.

) ignore healing job? Because of low damage DD?

Lazy_Voyager · November 2023

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Game mechanics that discourage healers:
In many dungeons, enemies hit like overcooked noodles or one-shot. So the healer is mostly buff-bot and resources, the importance of which vary by patch and current flavor of DD.

Nerfs to heals in response to all the complaints about people who have the gall to play PvP as an organized group.

Changes to both sets and abilities so that buffs and heals no longer effect allies but only players in group. Of course this is unimportant in a grouped dungeon, but if people increasingly can’t contribute in the role in open world, they may not bother with the role at all.

The attitude is reflected in the community as exhibited in zone chat last night:
Player #1 announced they were a healer looking for a group to run pledges with.

Player #2 “Healers are useless.”

Player #3 “Here’s your healer: [Ring of the Pale Order]”

Having attempted to tank vet scriv with a pug fake healer yesterday... those zone chatters are probably perma-Normals or clueless trial mains.

While healing itself in this game is often not necessary, healers have other duties and benefits that a pure/hybrid dps generally cannot fulfill. And there is content where self-healing can only carry you so far (vet Scriv final boss Ignite+heavy for instance).

In most vanilla normal (and often vet) content you can get away with a fake dps or a dps with a single aoe heal. An exception would be something like Wayrest 1 hardmode where the boss can wander off and 2-shot anyone who isn't a tank.

In DLC it depends, but you can often get away with a hybrid build that maximizes group dpf buffing to skip mechs with a few emergency heals for padding.

In DLC trifecta pushing, often going to want more of a pure healer build for a few of them depending on group comp.

Unfortunately knowing when to use what approach is down to experience, but having an armory npc or even just a gear/skill swap addon can make a world of difference when pugging.

Soarora · November 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I love playing healer, used to queue for random dungeons all the time, usually Symphony, SPC, plus another set, with many options besides (mostly for trials, but I have them!)

The main discouragement to me is the general feeling I’ve gotten that healers are neither needed nor wanted in a dungeon and most groups would rather go tank plus three DD.

So does this mean I should queue with both heal and DD builds prepared? To not be fake on the one hand or unwanted on the either?

I miss the days when tanks especially would add me to their friends list to run dungeons with.

I totally understand what you mean. Its something I suffered with when I was a healer main. Part of why I’m not a healer main anymore. Seems like one of the answers zos has to this is a heal debuff on the tank they themselves can’t heal out of or can’t heal out of fast enough.

That would be pretty tough for a lot of trials though where in many cases the tank pretty much needs to self sustain. Maybe for 4man only this could work. Idk. It would make it real hard on new tanks.

It’s not a theoretical, it’s a real choice from ZOS. MGF HM, can’t heal out of the debuff yourself so unless the DPS have megaheals if the healer gets hit everyone’s done for. ERE first boss, debuff on the tank that healer needs to help with. CA last boss, debuff on the tank healer needs to help with, especially on HM. SH trash, debuff on the tank, tank can deal with it themselves but not very quickly and thus may die.

Braggar · November 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr_FPbAHids

AvalonRanger · November 2023

Braggar wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr_FPbAHids

Seriously, ZOS must make role certification quest which we can display above the character name.

Amottica · November 2023

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Some people regard player who has 1 slot share healing skill as real healer.
Oh, come on! Stop those nonsense post. 70% PUG healer is sucks in dungeon.

Healer who can't do effective emergency healing at the dangerous situation is
"FAKE HEALER". Healer doesn't have sharing damage buff is also "FAKE HEALER".

And I've seen many of crappy healer who let DD down so easily, and brain dead mostly.

I would suggest the same effectiveness for most pug DDs and tanks. I have seen many subpar DDs who let the group down. It is why many tanks avoid using the GF and run exclusively with guild and friends. It leads to a much better experience as we know everyone can handle their role.

ZOS_Icy · November 2023

Greetings,

We have closed this topic as it was originally created in January 2022. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.

Thank you for your understanding.