Update All "While Slotted" Abilities to Function on Either Bar

i11ionward · October 2023

Erickson9610 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

That being said, I've noticed three general categories with how passives that require active skills function. This includes:
An effect which scales up based on the number of active abilities slotted (e.g. Slayer, increases WD/SD by 3% per slotted Fighters Guild skill)

An effect which is does not scale up, but simply requires an active ability slotted (e.g. Banish the Wicked, generates 3 Ultimate when an enemy is slain if you have a Fighters Guild skill slotted)

A boost to the effectiveness of the active abilities in that skill line (e.g. Skilled Tracker, increases damage of Fighters Guild abilities by 10%)

I believe that if Passive Abilities were to be given the "either bar" treatment, one approach to balancing this would be to make passives that are in category 1 function more like the passives in category 2.

Doesn't feel necessary, I quite like how they scale based on how far you lean into that skill line.

The per slotted skills generally have lower values that only reach a decent amount around 3 skills on your bar which in my experience, is often how many you usually end up with for an average well rounded build in pvp.

This brings a bit of diversity imo, rather than just slapping a flat value. If required you could balance it down a little, like maybe the NB 3% healing goes to 2% instead. Etc etc.

That is a fair point. If every passive required only one active ability slotted to reach the maximum value, then people wouldn't try to build into any particular skill line. Passives should encourage players to build into certain aspects of their character, rather than being a "one and done" thing.

Additionally, there are some passive abilities which have completely unnecessary "while x ability is slotted" conditions. For instance, Hemorrhage requires you to both slot an Assassination ability and land a critical strike in order to proc the class minor buff. Compare this to Maturation, which does not have the requirement to slot any Warden ability but just requires you to heal yourself or an ally in order to proc the class minor buff.

If passive abilities checked either bar, then the proc conditions for these passives would be more relaxed, while still encouraging players to build into those skill lines with both of their ability bars. The same can be said about active abilities with "while slotted" conditions. Weapon swapping shouldn't change your character's passive talents — the only thing that should change is their weapon.

I want to give my opinion on the Sorcerer example, but this example applies to almost all classes:

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
I wouldn't want this passive to use the "either bar" mechanic, players will just use the class skills on the backbar to ensure maximum profit from this passive, in the end it will only limit the variability of builds.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted.
And this passive just limits the variability of builds at the moment, so basically you want every bar to have a Daedric Summoning skill. It would have been much better if this skill used the "either bar" mechanic.

TL;DR
Passive skills like "for each class/guild ability slotted" should not use the "either bar" mechanic.
Passive skills like "while you have a class ability slotted" should use the "either bar" mechanic.

Dayhjawk · October 2023

YES for the love of all that is holy!! can we get magelight and expert hunter to function on either bar!!!! the only reason you would activate them is to see stealthed players nearby! @ZOS_Kevin

MashmalloMan · October 2023

i11ionward wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

That being said, I've noticed three general categories with how passives that require active skills function. This includes:
An effect which scales up based on the number of active abilities slotted (e.g. Slayer, increases WD/SD by 3% per slotted Fighters Guild skill)

An effect which is does not scale up, but simply requires an active ability slotted (e.g. Banish the Wicked, generates 3 Ultimate when an enemy is slain if you have a Fighters Guild skill slotted)

A boost to the effectiveness of the active abilities in that skill line (e.g. Skilled Tracker, increases damage of Fighters Guild abilities by 10%)

I believe that if Passive Abilities were to be given the "either bar" treatment, one approach to balancing this would be to make passives that are in category 1 function more like the passives in category 2.

Doesn't feel necessary, I quite like how they scale based on how far you lean into that skill line.

The per slotted skills generally have lower values that only reach a decent amount around 3 skills on your bar which in my experience, is often how many you usually end up with for an average well rounded build in pvp.

This brings a bit of diversity imo, rather than just slapping a flat value. If required you could balance it down a little, like maybe the NB 3% healing goes to 2% instead. Etc etc.

That is a fair point. If every passive required only one active ability slotted to reach the maximum value, then people wouldn't try to build into any particular skill line. Passives should encourage players to build into certain aspects of their character, rather than being a "one and done" thing.

Additionally, there are some passive abilities which have completely unnecessary "while x ability is slotted" conditions. For instance, Hemorrhage requires you to both slot an Assassination ability and land a critical strike in order to proc the class minor buff. Compare this to Maturation, which does not have the requirement to slot any Warden ability but just requires you to heal yourself or an ally in order to proc the class minor buff.

If passive abilities checked either bar, then the proc conditions for these passives would be more relaxed, while still encouraging players to build into those skill lines with both of their ability bars. The same can be said about active abilities with "while slotted" conditions. Weapon swapping shouldn't change your character's passive talents — the only thing that should change is their weapon.

I want to give my opinion on the Sorcerer example, but this example applies to almost all classes:

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.
I wouldn't want this passive to use the "either bar" mechanic, players will just use the class skills on the backbar to ensure maximum profit from this passive, in the end it will only limit the variability of builds.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted.
And this passive just limits the variability of builds at the moment, so basically you want every bar to have a Daedric Summoning skill. It would have been much better if this skill used the "either bar" mechanic.

TL;DR
Passive skills like "for each class/guild ability slotted" should not use the "either bar" mechanic.
Passive skills like "while you have a class ability slotted" should use the "either bar" mechanic.

I disagree. As I put in my other comment, you wouldn't sacrifice useful skills for these tiny bonuses just to have them do nothing on your back bar. If that were the case, you're better off running Oakensoul. You might want to add a few in your flex spots like how we add Fighters guild skills now, I don't really see much of a difference.

The Sorc passive is the only class passive I know of that gives a bonus from all 3 skill lines for being slotted, it could easily be adjusted to make it work better if it was problematic, like 1% to 1.5% per Sorc skill slotted. In general I think these types of passives could see a 30% nerf if they worked from both bars.

And yeah Daedric Protection is hella annoying. In so many builds throughout the year I always end up in the same place.

Atro back bar.

Haunting Curse or Bound Armaments front bar.

Forces me to sacrifice Minor Protection from Undo or a more useful pvp ult because I need that regen.

Erickson9610 · October 2023

I hope that more active abilities will receive the "either bar" treatment, and that the passive abilities would also be considered. It seems unlikely that much else will change for Update 40, so maybe these suggestions will be considered for the next big update.

MashmalloMan · October 2023

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I hope that more active abilities will receive the "either bar" treatment, and that the passive abilities would also be considered. It seems unlikely that much else will change for Update 40, so maybe these suggestions will be considered for the next big update.

Oh yeah I think most of us have written off this update already, it's too late.

Hopefuly they make some big changes to the non DK/NB sets for EA, but the bad part is, whatever we get today is esentially going to live. There is no more time for testing and feedback to make it in time.

At most, they'll fix game breaking bugs for the sets, but the power/functionality/idea of them will go to launch.

Erickson9610 · October 2023

I realized that I overlooked the other "while slotted" passive effects of Magelight and its morphs, and also Camouflaged Hunter. I've updated the original post, but the effects are:

Fighters Guild
- Expert Hunter — Major Savagery and Prophecy
  - Evil Hunter — Major Savagery and Prophecy
  - Camouflaged Hunter — Major Savagery and Prophecy, and also grants Minor Berserk when dealing Critical Damage from an enemy's flank
Mages Guild
- Magelight — Major Savagery and Prophecy
  - Inner Light (morph) — Major Savagery and Prophecy, and also increases Max Magicka by 5%
  - Radiant Magelight (morph) — Major Savagery and Prophecy, and also prevents you and nearby allies from being stunned by stealth attacks

It seems there is a lot more utility for these skills than I initially realized. If I have overlooked anything else, please let me know.

Erickson9610 · December 2023

For completeness sake, I have updated the list in the original post to include the "While Slotted" effects from Item Sets. The list now includes:

Item Sets
- Armor Master — While an Armor ability is slotted, increase your Maximum Health by 5%.
- Nobility in Decay — Reduces the cooldown of Death's Favor by 2 seconds for each Bone Tyrant ability slotted.

These Item Sets should be given the "Either Bar" treatment for the same reason that applicable Passive Abilities, Active Abilities, and Ultimate Abilities should function when the required skills are slotted on either bar. For Item Sets specifically, they would only give their 5 piece bonus when 5 pieces are currently equipped on the active bar, but the sets should check both bars for the slotted Active Abilities when the 5th piece bonus is active.

i11ionward · December 2023

I want to do a little review on the While Slotted on Either Bar mechanic. I like the way this mechanic is done on Tome-Bearer's Inspiration, basically we passively get Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, but Tome-Bearer's Inspiration is not a "passive skill" that you put on the bar and forget about, you need to use it every 30 seconds to get the full benefit of it. I think Tome-Bearer's Inspiration has the perfect balance between casualness and annoyance from the constant rebuff. I would like to see more buffs in the game with similar mechanics.

derkaiserliche · January 2024

i believe we will see a lot of builds then, where the 2nd bar is just a collection of buffs then and it will be very hard to balance.

On top of that oak soul would be completly useless then.

bar_boss_A · January 2024

it is a hard pass from me. I have enough of all that simplifying the game. Revert the DK and NB changes as nobody asked for it and strip arcanist of half of its buffs and debuffs to bring it back in line. If I would want to play autocombat games I would start playing mobile games.

Erickson9610 · January 2024

I have compiled tables of all of the effects which can be gained by slotting a skill. Boxes in yellow require a particular skill line like Werewolf, a weapon like One Hand and Shield, or armor set like Armor Master or Nobility in Decay. First, here's the table for all of the Oakensoul effects, and which skills correspond to those named buffs:

Note that it is impossible to fully replace Oakensoul with "While Slotted" buffs alone. Here's a table of all of the other passive effects unique to each Class:

Some Classes have way more passive effects than others. Finally, here's the table of all passive effects which all Classes can take advantage of via non-Class skills and passives (save for Nobility in Decay, which is exclusive to Necromancers):

There are many "While Slotted" effects in the game, but only a handful of these can be slotted on either bar. Hopefully these tables help to visualize how much each Class may benefit from While Slotted effects, and maybe it'll help theorycrafters in the event more of these skills are made to function on either bar.

Erickson9610 · January 2024

I have updated the original post with the new status of "While Slotted" abilities for PTS v9.3.0. We saw many new abilities get the "While Slotted on Either Bar" treatment in Week 1 of the PTS — including Soul Harvest, Concealed Weapon, and Siphoning Strikes and its morphs.

i11ionward · September 9

Hello,

It’s been quite a while since this thread was created, and some of the skills mentioned in the OP have already received the “While Slotted on either bar” mechanic. However, there are still a number of skills that, logically, could benefit from this mechanic but for some reason haven’t been updated yet.

For example, Venom Skull and other Necromancer abilities that would clearly fit this design are still being ignored by the devs. With the introduction of subclasses, skills like Expert Hunter and Magelight have basically lost any real relevance, and giving them the “While Slotted on either bar” treatment could at least make them worth considering on players’ bars again.

So, I just wanted to remind the devs that this mechanic is a great quality-of-life feature, and it would be awesome to see it applied to more skills.

P.S. Maybe the esteemed @Erickson9610 could update the OP to better reflect the current state of things?

Erickson9610 · September 9

i11ionward wrote: »

Hello,

It’s been quite a while since this thread was created, and some of the skills mentioned in the OP have already received the “While Slotted on either bar” mechanic. However, there are still a number of skills that, logically, could benefit from this mechanic but for some reason haven’t been updated yet.

For example, Venom Skull and other Necromancer abilities that would clearly fit this design are still being ignored by the devs. With the introduction of subclasses, skills like Expert Hunter and Magelight have basically lost any real relevance, and giving them the “While Slotted on either bar” treatment could at least make them worth considering on players’ bars again.

So, I just wanted to remind the devs that this mechanic is a great quality-of-life feature, and it would be awesome to see it applied to more skills.

P.S. Maybe the esteemed @Erickson9610 could update the OP to better reflect the current state of things?

I've updated the OP. Here's a couple of insights:

Once again, Necromancer got another Class Set which has a "for each <skill line> ability slotted" condition. It's the only new Item Set with a condition like this. That means 2 of 3 Item Sets which check for the abilities on your skill bar are Necromancer Class Sets, while the last one is Armor Master, which any character can use. Both Necromancer Class Sets have the "for each ability slotted" condition while Armor Master has the "with an ability slotted" condition.
Many of the values between Update 40 and Update 47 were buffed (such as passives granting slightly more recovery, damage, or critical chance per ability slotted).
In one dramatic case, Death Knell was changed from a "for each Grave Lord ability slotted" passive to a "with a Grave Lord ability slotted" condition, decreasing its effectiveness for those who used several Grave Lord abilities.
Concealed Weapon was moved from Shadow to Assassination, adding even more "while slotted on either bar" bonuses to Assassination.
Werewolf replaced the Major Savagery and Prophecy on Deafening Roar with Major Protection, and allows Heavy Attacks to taunt enemies while that ability is slotted. Interestingly, you can get the Major Protection from slotting it on a human form bar, but the Heavy Attack taunt only works if it's slotted while transformed.
The "While Slotted" effects of Weapon, Guild, and Alliance War abilities were completely untouched for 7 updates.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · September 9

a lot of these would be good to implement, the WW skill line (aside from the stam regen from having the ulti slotted) shouldn't be added as passives. At a push they should only function if you have the WW ultimate slotted on that bar.

The other thing is that whilst the passives are a good thing to start with IMO the main things which should affect both bars are toggle skills which drain resources. For example Vampires Weapon Spell dmg buff skill - you can activate it on back bar and it keeps going and draining your resources on front bar until you swap back and turn it off. But other toggle skills like Banner don't work and must be on both bars. Similarly Sorc Pets and Warden bear must be on both bars or the pet is de-summoned. This shouldn't be the case. The pet should only de-spawn if it is killed.

ZOS_Icy · September 9

Greetings,

We have closed this topic as it was originally created in September 2023. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.

Thank you for your understanding.