Panderbander wrote: »

I think this would improve the game's playability significantly and would support it.

That said, the werewolf passive buffs normally only apply while in werewolf form. Are you suggesting that they apply to both bars while slotted on your normal bars or that they should apply to all bars while slotted on your werewolf bar but not in form? If the latter, I would assume these buffs should require the werewolf ultimate be slotted to benefit from them, especially considering that werewolf isn't allowed to benefit from both bar passives while in form.

I suggest that the passive benefits of the Werewolf skills benefit both bars in your human form. As it is, Hircine's Bounty is the only source of passive Major Brutality and Sorcery that isn't tied to Class abilities. I remember a time where Templar builds slotted Hircine's Bounty for the passive buff before Jabs was given Major Brutality and Sorcery, clearing up a skill slot.

Technically, you shouldn't benefit from Werewolf skills unless you intend to use them, but this is the best solution we have until we get a different source of Major Brutality and Sorcery that isn't tied to weapons or class skills. Maybe Expert Hunter or Magelight should be changed from Major Savagery/Prophecy to Major Brutality/Sorcery?

The amount of time it took you to write this would probably be the same amount it takes to implement these changes.
Reavling flare, deaden pain and temporal guard on the back bar sounds busted tho.

Same could be done for passives I think

Erickson9610 wrote: »

As it seems that Update 40 is continuing this trend of making more skills which grant passive effects function on either bar, why not update every skill like this? Here is a brief list of all of the skills which have "While Slotted" passive effects (skills with strikethrough have already been given this "either bar" treatment as of now, while skills in bold are Ultimate abilities):

• Ardent Flame
  • Inferno and its morphs — Major Savagery and Prophecy
  • Molten Whip — Gain up to 3 stacks of 100 Weapon and Spell Damage and increase the damage of the next Molten Whip by 20% for each stack when activating a different Ardent Flame ability
• Daedric Summoning
  • Bound Armor — Max Magicka increased by 8% and Minor Protection
  • Bound Armaments — Max Stamina increased by 8%
  • Bound Aegis — Max Magicka increased by 8%, Minor Protection, and Minor Resolve
• Dark Magic
  • Crystal Fragments — Casting a Health, Magicka, or Stamina ability has a 33% Chance to cause your next Crystal Fragments to be instant, deal 66% more damage, and cost 50% less Magicka.
• Assassination
  • Incapacitating Strike — Restore 100 Magicka and Stamina when dealing damage with Light or Heavy Attack
  • Soul Harvest — Gain 10 Ultimate whenever you kill an enemy
  • Grim Focus and Merciless Resolve — Gain up to 5 stacks of 60 Weapon and Spell Damage with Light and Heavy Attacks
  • Relentless Focus — Gain up to 5 stacks of 80 Weapon and Spell Damage with Light and Heavy Attacks
• Shadow
  • Concealed Weapon — Minor Expedition
  • Shadow Cloak and Shadowy Disguise — Major Savagery and Prophecy
  • Dark Cloak — Minor Protection
• Restoring Light
  • Restoring Aura and its morphs — Minor Endurance, Fortitude, and Intellect
• Animal Companions
  • Deceptive Predator — Minor Evasion
  • Bird of Prey — Minor Berserk
• Bone Tyrant
  • Bitter Harvest and its morphs — Reduce damage taken by 3%
• Grave Lord
  • Venom Skull — Any Necromancer ability counts towards the third cast
  • Shocking Siphon and its morphs — Increase damage done by 3%
• Living Death
  • Expunge and its morphs — Reduce ability costs by 3%
  • Restoring Tether and its morphs — Increase healing done by 3%
• Herald of the Tome
  • Tome-Bearer's Inspiration and its morphs — Major Brutality and Sorcery
• Soldier of Apocrypha
  • Runic Jolt and its morphs — Damage taken is reduced by 2% per active Crux
• One Hand and Shield
  • Defensive Stance — While slotted, increase damage blocked by 10% and reduce the cost of blocking by 10% while a shield is equipped
• Werewolf
  • Werewolf Transformation and its morphs — +15% Stamina Recovery
  • Hircine's Bounty and its morphs — Major Brutality and Sorcery
  • Roar and its morphs — Major Savagery and Prophecy
• Fighters Guild
  • Expert Hunter and its morphs — Major Savagery and Prophecy
• Mages Guild
  • Magelight and its morphs — Major Savagery and Prophecy
• Psijic Order
  • Temporal Guard — Minor Protection
• Support
  • Revealing Flare and its morphs — Major Protection

What do you all think of the direction that this game is heading in regards to "while slotted on either bar" buffs? What builds would you come up with if every skill like this was given that treatment? Are there any other skills which should be considered, and which classes need the "while slotted on either bar" treatment the most?

At this point, we see that the "either bar" mechanic is no longer anyone's class identity, so Devs must can use your list to implement mechanics for all similar skills at once, rather than picking favorites every update, adding mechanics to one or two skills.

I gotta say im seriously in favor of doing this for wardens on bird of prey. For how short the actual skill duration is it should be a 2x bar passive at the min. I rarely play mine but it would honestly give the class a little more umph considering so much of is tied to healing/defense.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Wardens Lotus Flower that gives major prophecy and sorcery needs to give it on both bars passively instead of needing to activate the skill.

Aww but it has one of the cutest active animations in the game. I'm a big fan of it.
Maybe they could just make the prophecy/sorcery apply to both bars, and leave the active alone?

System_Data wrote: »

Please make that happen ZOS. As it is, it's an extra cast that deals no damage.

I hope you are aware that is a major balancing aspect. Enabling passives to be active on both bars is one thing, turning actives into passives is another story. Technically there is something to it, since strong passives being available only on one bar was balancing out strength. But still, this is a slippery slope.

If we end up at a point were everyone has access to all buffs at all times, then we just erased the meaning of those buffs and elevated basal powerlevels. That would be just plain powercreep, which in turn invalidates PvE content.

I am not categorically against anything right now, I just think the devs have to be mindful.

Hopefully ZOS considers granting the "either bar" treatment to other skills on the next PTS patch. Some of these skills could really use that buff.

Zastrix wrote: »

I'm totally fine with this but I do like the idea of some passives only being locked on the current bar. But that's mostly for weapon passives. It'd be weird that I would get a sword and board passive while I'm holding dual daggers. Skill passives totally, but weapon passives? Not so much.

The "while slotted" passive effect for Defensive Stance requires that a shield is currently equipped. On the Live server, you won't get the 10% extra damage blocked and 10% blocking cost reduction if you slot that skill on a bar without a shield equipped.

Theoretically, if the passive effect worked on either bar, you could slot the skill on a non-shield bar (and be unable to cast it), but you'd get the passive effect on your other bar if it has a shield equipped. It's like how you can slot Roar or Hircine's Bounty to get their passive effects without actually being able to cast those abilities in your human form — you are sacrificing bar space for some sort of passive effect.

However, I imagine most of the utility from this skill being given the "either bar" treatment would come from tanks who want to run shields on both bars, and don't want to slot the skill on both bars in order to get that blocking buff. This change would clear up a skill slot for them, so they won't slot a redundant skill.

I think the majority of those shouldn't happen and for those that do happen the attached buff should get nerfed so that slotting it isn't seen as being mandatory for too many people.

Buffing a skill so that it works on just one bar may free up bar space for those that were using it on two bars but, for those that weren't using it the pressure to use it just increased significantly.

I'm of the view that buffs for most players should be in the position of using them if you want to do so and otherwise not doing so without totally crippling your character.

What about class passives that apply based on the number of skills slotted on a bar such as the health nightblade gets for each slotted shadow ability or the critical damage given to wardens for each slotted animal companions ability?

Personally I'd like to see these looked at, revised to provide benefits based on having their benefit active regardless of bar slotted, and updated to do just that.

i11ionward wrote: »

I remembered my first days in TESO and the level 15 I received. At that time, I really thought that skills (with a passive effect) placed on one of the bars would always be active. I was disappointed. But now there is hope that the “on either bar” mechanic can actually be added to the game for many skills. I really hope for these changes as soon as possible.

It's been so long for me that I truly forget my new player experience, but this is an excellent point.

Great game design is easy to play, hard to master, that allows it to hit any type of audience.

ESO already has a ton of complexity due to skills, racials, sets, stats, resources, mundus, enchants, traits, weapons, food, potions, weaving, mechanics, dlcs, economy, skill points, CP, core combat skills, and finally rotations that this issue feels overtly complex for no reason in an already deep game.

Especially since this is tied to ESO's core combat system with the whole 2 bar weapon swapping mechanic which can be jarring for new players. The mechanic was originally introduced to make ESO play well on consoles for controllers button layout, but it's one of my favourite features of any MMO as I've had time to fall in love with it. Why make it more complex then it needs to be.

I think the biggest argument to make these changes is where do we draw the line? Why do some skills do it and others don't.

If everyone's more powerful at the same rate, then this avoids some potential balancing issues.

That being said, I've noticed three general categories with how passives that require active skills function. This includes:

1. An effect which scales up based on the number of active abilities slotted (e.g. Slayer, increases WD/SD by 3% per slotted Fighters Guild skill)
2. An effect which does not scale up, but simply requires an active ability slotted (e.g. Banish the Wicked, generates 3 Ultimate when an enemy is slain if you have a Fighters Guild skill slotted)
3. A boost to the effectiveness of the active abilities in that skill line (e.g. Skilled Tracker, increases damage of Fighters Guild abilities by 10%)

I believe that if Passive Abilities were to be given the "either bar" treatment, one approach to balancing this would be to make passives that are in category 1 function more like the passives in category 2. A sledgehammer approach would probably half the values of passives in category 1, or make those passives more like the ones in category 3.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

That being said, I've noticed three general categories with how passives that require active skills function. This includes:

1. An effect which scales up based on the number of active abilities slotted (e.g. Slayer, increases WD/SD by 3% per slotted Fighters Guild skill)
2. An effect which is does not scale up, but simply requires an active ability slotted (e.g. Banish the Wicked, generates 3 Ultimate when an enemy is slain if you have a Fighters Guild skill slotted)
3. A boost to the effectiveness of the active abilities in that skill line (e.g. Skilled Tracker, increases damage of Fighters Guild abilities by 10%)

I believe that if Passive Abilities were to be given the "either bar" treatment, one approach to balancing this would be to make passives that are in category 1 function more like the passives in category 2.

Doesn't feel necessary, I quite like how they scale based on how far you lean into that skill line.

The per slotted skills generally have lower values that only reach a decent amount around 3 skills on your bar which in my experience, is often how many you usually end up with for an average well rounded build in pvp.

This brings a bit of diversity imo, rather than just slapping a flat value. If required you could balance it down a little, like maybe the NB 3% healing goes to 2% instead. Etc etc.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

That being said, I've noticed three general categories with how passives that require active skills function. This includes:

1. An effect which scales up based on the number of active abilities slotted (e.g. Slayer, increases WD/SD by 3% per slotted Fighters Guild skill)
2. An effect which is does not scale up, but simply requires an active ability slotted (e.g. Banish the Wicked, generates 3 Ultimate when an enemy is slain if you have a Fighters Guild skill slotted)
3. A boost to the effectiveness of the active abilities in that skill line (e.g. Skilled Tracker, increases damage of Fighters Guild abilities by 10%)

I believe that if Passive Abilities were to be given the "either bar" treatment, one approach to balancing this would be to make passives that are in category 1 function more like the passives in category 2.

Doesn't feel necessary, I quite like how they scale based on how far you lean into that skill line.

The per slotted skills generally have lower values that only reach a decent amount around 3 skills on your bar which in my experience, is often how many you usually end up with for an average well rounded build in pvp.

This brings a bit of diversity imo, rather than just slapping a flat value. If required you could balance it down a little, like maybe the NB 3% healing goes to 2% instead. Etc etc.

That is a fair point. If every passive required only one active ability slotted to reach the maximum value, then people wouldn't try to build into any particular skill line. Passives should encourage players to build into certain aspects of their character, rather than being a "one and done" thing.

Additionally, there are some passive abilities which have completely unnecessary "while x ability is slotted" conditions. For instance, Hemorrhage requires you to both slot an Assassination ability and land a critical strike in order to proc the class minor buff. Compare this to Maturation, which does not have the requirement to slot any Warden ability but just requires you to heal yourself or an ally in order to proc the class minor buff.

If passive abilities checked either bar, then the proc conditions for these passives would be more relaxed, while still encouraging players to build into those skill lines with both of their ability bars. The same can be said about active abilities with "while slotted" conditions. Weapon swapping shouldn't change your character's passive talents — the only thing that should change is their weapon.

Agreed 100%.

Skill slots are still worth something, just because a siphoning skill gives 3% healing done or in my example 2% on either bar, doesn't mean I would load up my back bar with all 6 skills. It would functionally sacrifice too much for a minimal bonus and added complexity. At that point I'd consider Oakensoul instead which does the same thing to a better degree.

I'd much rather it be optional, rather than a must have bonus forcing most classes to have a minimum of 1 skill from every line somewhere in their 12 skill slots. It's a bit too low effort and hurts builds. It's fine where it works like Necro's 200 regen for a summon since all 3 roles rely on summons for DPS, tanking, or healing to some degree or another.

NB healers are going to get the biggest benefit from siphoning skills as the line is meant for them. A stacking bonus enforces those playstyles while offering a small, optional bonus for non healers.

The minor group buff passives need a complete overhaul at this point. It seems like they've kept their hands off of them for so long simply because they are inevitably going to be reworked whenever they tackle actually finishing the hybridization changes they started 2 years ago. They're meant to give groups a reason to mix match classes, but as it stands you only need 1 Sorc or NB and 1 Templar or DK. Necro brings Major Vuln which is no longer unique with sets. It's a mess.