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Post #9001 about fake queueing & how to fix?
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tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.
top arcanist is the other dps.
DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.
So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.
This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.
i know vet DS well, this ss does not really show much except 'maybe' the tank and healer could keep themselves alive while dealing damage, while the arcanist probably did not need much healing and maybe the templar died a few times
There was 1 death. The arcanist. They got hit by a double tick of the fire damage from Engine Guardian at the same time as one of the constructs did their ground wave attack.
The bottom templar had 43k health as the "DPS".
Next theory?
Edit: The templar "DPS" was over 1300 CP. so the "new player" or "they don't know" theories shouldn't apply.
dont need one knowing he had 43k health and the arcanist died, your name is familiar though. do you play dd on this healer too ?
Edit: but you play dd with this healer right ?
Edit: and infact this is your dd in our groups ?
My healer's damage was from ice wall, shards, vamp bane (to proc templar skill), and yes, I had radiant oppression on my bar for execute.
Otherwise was running springs, combat prayer, radiating, healing orbs, ele drain, etc.
it's my full healer setup. A properly run healer setup does that level of damage by not overhealing, layering in the few damage skills, and LA weaving between skills.
I have 4 templars with very similar names. 2 of them are healers, 1 is a mag DD, the last is stam DD. This was one of the healers.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger65,385 achievement points1 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭but this is still infact your dd your healing with in the group right ? thankfully the guys name is unknown but would you like it if i showed your dps from groups in this argument ? (discussion)
To now answer this edited reply.
No, this is a full healer (yes, it was a half DD in my Godslayer group because that's what you have to do to get that achievement, but I was still in RoJo, just Flame/Resto instead of Ice/Resto)
I know the forum rules about "naming and shaming", which is why I edited out the DKs name, as they were not anonymous. Our own names are fine to post.
I quite literally couldn't tell you the username or character name of that player. Doesn't matter.
Just seems that posters will bend over backwards to vouch for a player like this, who is actively wasting the time of the other 3 players in the group, but if somebody "fakes" their role as a healer or tank (where most of the time it actually makes the dungeon faster), there will inevitably be another thread about it on the forums.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger65,385 achievement points3 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only solution is to report them systematically, untill Zenimax finally takes action to curb that horrible behaviour.
Fake roling is an exploit (ie : a use of a system in a way not intended by the developpers to get an unfair benefit), and exploit are forbidden by the ToS.
The problem does not lies with "fake dds" (ie dds that does to low damage), because it's not really a problem.
Does it happen? Yes, very rarely, both DD will obviously not be up to the task, and then again, it only has importance in veteran content, where it is excruciatingly rare.
Are those DDs doing something reprehensible? Absolutely not, they are just bad. Kick them out the run, and recruit another (DDs are aplenty, shouldn't take long).
But please, don't use those rare, edge cases, as an excuse to cheat. When you fake role, you hurt 3 other players. It's not fooling anyone, the only reason one does fake role is to get in queue faster.
My dude. I can tell you right now as a hard core vet that is beyond common that dds in vet dungeons are not up to the task. Ive had countless runs like this. Very nearly as many as with inexperienced tanks. Its why none of my tank friends pug... its excruciating. The only time that happens is when I or another dd they know is with them so they know they can clear and wont eat a penalty. I dunno how often you pug or what your your experience level is but that is simply not true in any way shape or form.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 9 September 2023 21:033 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Low dps are somehing you will meet in every Mmo. In 14 I play a paladin (tank), whitemage (healer), Ninja (dd) and a Redmage (DD support). Mostly Paladin and Redmage.
In low dps situations you are put to the test as a tank - so did I on my Paladin. In Eso tanks have low dps and can´t realy figure out, why ZoS want it that way - same goes for healers.
Everyone will be put to the test - as new player´s arrive all the time. In Eso Im not so sure about new player´s arrive and stay.
Doesn´t matter how bad it will look, we will alway´s do better without the fake roles and speedsters + skipers. They are not doing the new player´s any favor.
Eso seems to be the Mmo, who have to be upside down. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear
PS
The moment Eso will add specialized roles, I for sure will return to dungeons again - and remember the speedsters have to die before they get too fare ahead of the group
If they enforce specialized roles for premade groups pretty much all trifecta dungeoneers would leave the game. It straight up handicaps our ability to get achievements.3 -
svendf✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Low dps are somehing you will meet in every Mmo. In 14 I play a paladin (tank), whitemage (healer), Ninja (dd) and a Redmage (DD support). Mostly Paladin and Redmage.
In low dps situations you are put to the test as a tank - so did I on my Paladin. In Eso tanks have low dps and can´t realy figure out, why ZoS want it that way - same goes for healers.
Everyone will be put to the test - as new player´s arrive all the time. In Eso Im not so sure about new player´s arrive and stay.
Doesn´t matter how bad it will look, we will alway´s do better without the fake roles and speedsters + skipers. They are not doing the new player´s any favor.
Eso seems to be the Mmo, who have to be upside down. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear
PS
The moment Eso will add specialized roles, I for sure will return to dungeons again - and remember the speedsters have to die before they get too fare ahead of the group
If they enforce specialized roles for premade groups pretty much all trifecta dungeoneers would leave the game. It straight up handicaps our ability to get achievements.
Ok ? All my HM, speed, no death runs have been with a tank,two dd´s and me on healer (haven´t done any as dd or tank)
I don´t know, why some aren´t able to. The people I have done these runs with (all different player´s) must be very special - including me, which I can assure you, non of us where.
My last one must be more than a year ago, just a month or so before I left for the other Mmo.
The Dps have getten higher over the last year and more. It actually sounds a bit strange to me.
Enforce specialized roles is something I only can support, if GF is used - premade is premade - there must be a way to fix it.
Edited by svendf on 9 September 2023 21:590 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Low dps are somehing you will meet in every Mmo. In 14 I play a paladin (tank), whitemage (healer), Ninja (dd) and a Redmage (DD support). Mostly Paladin and Redmage.
In low dps situations you are put to the test as a tank - so did I on my Paladin. In Eso tanks have low dps and can´t realy figure out, why ZoS want it that way - same goes for healers.
Everyone will be put to the test - as new player´s arrive all the time. In Eso Im not so sure about new player´s arrive and stay.
Doesn´t matter how bad it will look, we will alway´s do better without the fake roles and speedsters + skipers. They are not doing the new player´s any favor.
Eso seems to be the Mmo, who have to be upside down. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear
PS
The moment Eso will add specialized roles, I for sure will return to dungeons again - and remember the speedsters have to die before they get too fare ahead of the group
If they enforce specialized roles for premade groups pretty much all trifecta dungeoneers would leave the game. It straight up handicaps our ability to get achievements.
Ok ? All my HM, speed, no death runs have been with a tank,two dd´s and me on healer (haven´t done any as dd or tank)
I don´t know, why some aren´t able to. The people I have done these runs with (all different player´s) must be very special - including me, which I can assure you, non of us where.
My last one must be more than a year ago, just a month or so before I left for the other Mmo.
The Dps have getten higher over the last year and more. It actually sounds a bit strange to me.
Enforce specialized roles is something I only can support, if GF is used - premade is premade - there must be a way to fix it.
I have done dungeon trifectas in almost every combination possible, although there were usually at least 2 real dds present. So I don't see your point.
In fact it's possible to achieve almost everything without specified roles as long as the team cooperates. There is no need to change the system a lot of us enjoy just to (temporary) calm down the loud but irrelevant reward-driven pseudo-dungeoneer-crowd.
Wanna have rigid rules? Then eso isn't for you.
Wanna force others to play as you want? Then eso isn't for you.
Wanna be carried while pretending to play as dd? Maybe you better go and find another hobby.
If you aren't able to communicate to your teammates or gather a group of likeminded people before entering, that's entirely your personal problem. Work on your social anxiety and don't hide behind it, or at least leave us others be with this idiocracy.Edited by Braffin on 10 September 2023 01:11Never get between a cat and it's candy!
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Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.2 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭but this is still infact your dd your healing with in the group right ? thankfully the guys name is unknown but would you like it if i showed your dps from groups in this argument ? (discussion)
I neither like or dislike, but i acknowledge the existence of responsibilities and expectationsEdited by ForzaRammer on 10 September 2023 02:170 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Low dps are somehing you will meet in every Mmo. In 14 I play a paladin (tank), whitemage (healer), Ninja (dd) and a Redmage (DD support). Mostly Paladin and Redmage.
In low dps situations you are put to the test as a tank - so did I on my Paladin. In Eso tanks have low dps and can´t realy figure out, why ZoS want it that way - same goes for healers.
Everyone will be put to the test - as new player´s arrive all the time. In Eso Im not so sure about new player´s arrive and stay.
Doesn´t matter how bad it will look, we will alway´s do better without the fake roles and speedsters + skipers. They are not doing the new player´s any favor.
Eso seems to be the Mmo, who have to be upside down. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear
PS
The moment Eso will add specialized roles, I for sure will return to dungeons again - and remember the speedsters have to die before they get too fare ahead of the group
If they enforce specialized roles for premade groups pretty much all trifecta dungeoneers would leave the game. It straight up handicaps our ability to get achievements.
Ok ? All my HM, speed, no death runs have been with a tank,two dd´s and me on healer (haven´t done any as dd or tank)
I don´t know, why some aren´t able to. The people I have done these runs with (all different player´s) must be very special - including me, which I can assure you, non of us where.
My last one must be more than a year ago, just a month or so before I left for the other Mmo.
The Dps have getten higher over the last year and more. It actually sounds a bit strange to me.
Enforce specialized roles is something I only can support, if GF is used - premade is premade - there must be a way to fix it.
Congratulations. The vast majority of the end game folks i play with don't. If you want to do that good on you. My groups easily self sustain and do not need a healer. Sorry. Even our best trial healers go buff dps for dungeon trifectas.
Of course we could lol but why would i want to?Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 10 September 2023 10:510 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NeuroticPixels wrote: »So why is it such a problem on ESO but not (in my experience) WoW or possibly other MMOs? What could ESO change with group dungeons that would deter players from queuing as a fake role?
For the very simple reason that those games have class specializations including tank specs. If you spec into one of those you're automatically generating a lot more threat than in a DPS spec so mobs aggro to you without doing anything special.
In ESO, there are no specializations. To be a tank you have to make that choice every second while in the dungeon, i.e. taunt this mob, dodge roll/block this or that, watch mobs aggroing to dps and taunt those. It's an active choice you have to do and keep doing for the whole dungeon run. In those other games, if you choose tank spec, you're a tank as long as you're trying to hit mobs.
In ESO you also only have 2 DPS slots per dungeon (as opposed to 3 in WoW) so there is a lot more competition in the queue. Additionally, the rewards for doing a random normal dungeon in ESO is stupid good compared to other content. This is why so many people choose tank group role to get faster queue and collect those sweet rewards. It's a system perfectly tailored to what is happening. It's not going to change until the high rewards are moved into some other content mode or ESO implements some form of forced specialization system (which would change a major part of the game).
the biggest factor why tank specs in other games can do a lot better job of holding aggro is something we dont have good access to...aoe tauntsplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities2 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »The only solution is to report them systematically, untill Zenimax finally takes action to curb that horrible behaviour.
Fake roling is an exploit (ie : a use of a system in a way not intended by the developpers to get an unfair benefit), and exploit are forbidden by the ToS.
The problem does not lies with "fake dds" (ie dds that does to low damage), because it's not really a problem.
Does it happen? Yes, very rarely, both DD will obviously not be up to the task, and then again, it only has importance in veteran content, where it is excruciatingly rare.
Are those DDs doing something reprehensible? Absolutely not, they are just bad. Kick them out the run, and recruit another (DDs are aplenty, shouldn't take long).
But please, don't use those rare, edge cases, as an excuse to cheat. When you fake role, you hurt 3 other players. It's not fooling anyone, the only reason one does fake role is to get in queue faster.
I don’t know where you get ur estimates from, in vet queue when I play on a healer, fake dd now makes up about 10%, fake tank about 5%.
From my observations, your edge case in more prevalent than your main problem.
I suppose I must be so very exceptionnaly lucky, then. I only play in vet, and almost everytime, the damage is good.
And even then, if fake DDs makes 10% (I highly doubt it, but let's consider it for the sake of the argument) .. that means that the odds of having 2 bad DDs are 10% * 10% = 1%.
So, yeah .. edge cases put forward by fake roles as an excuse for their behaviour (also, As I said, if the fake tank is a so great and mighty DD, he might as well queue as one .. since that with him, the damage will be good, anyway)
EDIT :
of course, I'm not deluded enough to consider everything under 50k in a dungeon run "low". A player doing 20k, while far from exceptionnal, is plenty enough for me.Edited by preevious on 11 September 2023 19:480 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »The only solution is to report them systematically, untill Zenimax finally takes action to curb that horrible behaviour.
Fake roling is an exploit (ie : a use of a system in a way not intended by the developpers to get an unfair benefit), and exploit are forbidden by the ToS.
The problem does not lies with "fake dds" (ie dds that does to low damage), because it's not really a problem.
Does it happen? Yes, very rarely, both DD will obviously not be up to the task, and then again, it only has importance in veteran content, where it is excruciatingly rare.
Are those DDs doing something reprehensible? Absolutely not, they are just bad. Kick them out the run, and recruit another (DDs are aplenty, shouldn't take long).
But please, don't use those rare, edge cases, as an excuse to cheat. When you fake role, you hurt 3 other players. It's not fooling anyone, the only reason one does fake role is to get in queue faster.
I don’t know where you get ur estimates from, in vet queue when I play on a healer, fake dd now makes up about 10%, fake tank about 5%.
From my observations, your edge case in more prevalent than your main problem.
I suppose I must be so very exceptionnaly lucky, then. I only play in vet, and almost everytime, the damage is good.
And even then, if fake DDs makes 10% (I highly doubt it, but let's consider it for the sake of the argument) .. that means that the odds of having 2 bad DDs are 10% * 10% = 1%.
So, yeah .. edge cases put forward by fake roles as an excuse for their behaviour (also, As I said, if the fake tank is a so great and mighty DD, he might as well queue as one .. since that with him, the damage will be good, anyway)
EDIT :
of course, I'm not deluded enough to consider everything under 50k in a dungeon run "low". A player doing 20k, while far from exceptionnal, is plenty enough for me.
This is definitely not my experience. Atleast 40% of the time im the only dps doing real damage. By that i also mean about 20-25k on a 6m. I hit about 50k on a 6m so i can solo dps basically all vet dungeons but who the heck wants to do that...0 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »The only solution is to report them systematically, untill Zenimax finally takes action to curb that horrible behaviour.
Fake roling is an exploit (ie : a use of a system in a way not intended by the developpers to get an unfair benefit), and exploit are forbidden by the ToS.
The problem does not lies with "fake dds" (ie dds that does to low damage), because it's not really a problem.
Does it happen? Yes, very rarely, both DD will obviously not be up to the task, and then again, it only has importance in veteran content, where it is excruciatingly rare.
Are those DDs doing something reprehensible? Absolutely not, they are just bad. Kick them out the run, and recruit another (DDs are aplenty, shouldn't take long).
But please, don't use those rare, edge cases, as an excuse to cheat. When you fake role, you hurt 3 other players. It's not fooling anyone, the only reason one does fake role is to get in queue faster.
I don’t know where you get ur estimates from, in vet queue when I play on a healer, fake dd now makes up about 10%, fake tank about 5%.
From my observations, your edge case in more prevalent than your main problem.
I suppose I must be so very exceptionnaly lucky, then. I only play in vet, and almost everytime, the damage is good.
And even then, if fake DDs makes 10% (I highly doubt it, but let's consider it for the sake of the argument) .. that means that the odds of having 2 bad DDs are 10% * 10% = 1%.
So, yeah .. edge cases put forward by fake roles as an excuse for their behaviour (also, As I said, if the fake tank is a so great and mighty DD, he might as well queue as one .. since that with him, the damage will be good, anyway)
EDIT :
of course, I'm not deluded enough to consider everything under 50k in a dungeon run "low". A player doing 20k, while far from exceptionnal, is plenty enough for me.
1. You are assuming getting each fake dd are independent events, which is not obvious, in fact they often queue together to block kick
2. I find your claim “more than 90% people show up in dd role in vet can do 20k dps” unbelievable
3. The probability a real dd good enough to carry a fake dd is not 100%, there is a big difference between (using ur numbers here) “doing 20k” and “carrying a dead weight and doing 35k+”
I’d say at most 1/2 of the real dd is capable of carrying a dead weight. So your 1% calculation is just false0 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »The only solution is to report them systematically, untill Zenimax finally takes action to curb that horrible behaviour.
Fake roling is an exploit (ie : a use of a system in a way not intended by the developpers to get an unfair benefit), and exploit are forbidden by the ToS.
The problem does not lies with "fake dds" (ie dds that does to low damage), because it's not really a problem.
Does it happen? Yes, very rarely, both DD will obviously not be up to the task, and then again, it only has importance in veteran content, where it is excruciatingly rare.
Are those DDs doing something reprehensible? Absolutely not, they are just bad. Kick them out the run, and recruit another (DDs are aplenty, shouldn't take long).
But please, don't use those rare, edge cases, as an excuse to cheat. When you fake role, you hurt 3 other players. It's not fooling anyone, the only reason one does fake role is to get in queue faster.
I don’t know where you get ur estimates from, in vet queue when I play on a healer, fake dd now makes up about 10%, fake tank about 5%.
From my observations, your edge case in more prevalent than your main problem.
I suppose I must be so very exceptionnaly lucky, then. I only play in vet, and almost everytime, the damage is good.
And even then, if fake DDs makes 10% (I highly doubt it, but let's consider it for the sake of the argument) .. that means that the odds of having 2 bad DDs are 10% * 10% = 1%.
So, yeah .. edge cases put forward by fake roles as an excuse for their behaviour (also, As I said, if the fake tank is a so great and mighty DD, he might as well queue as one .. since that with him, the damage will be good, anyway)
EDIT :
of course, I'm not deluded enough to consider everything under 50k in a dungeon run "low". A player doing 20k, while far from exceptionnal, is plenty enough for me.
1. You are assuming getting each fake dd are independent events, which is not obvious, in fact they often queue together to block kick
2. I find your claim “more than 90% people show up in dd role in vet can do 20k dps” unbelievable
3. The probability a real dd good enough to carry a fake dd is not 100%, there is a big difference between (using ur numbers here) “doing 20k” and “carrying a dead weight and doing 35k+”
I’d say at most 1/2 of the real dd is capable of carrying a dead weight. So your 1% calculation is just false
I actually agree with point 3. I might be biased in the sense I can carry the occasionnal inadequate DD without hassle; and so, I tend to consider group damage as a whole to be good.
As for point 2, however, since I play on PC, I'm using add-on, and I know the % of damage I do in the group. I extrapolate from there when I say the % done by the other DD is mostly good, since I can use it to more or less "calculate" his actual DPS.. and it's rarely under 15k or so.
Point 1 is dubious, though. It certainly happens, but I don't think it's such a dire conspiracy.
This is not an excuse for fake roling, though. If you feel your DPS will make a difference, just play as one .. that will be one less "fake" DD to worry about.
Edited by preevious on 13 September 2023 06:540 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »The only solution is to report them systematically, untill Zenimax finally takes action to curb that horrible behaviour.
Fake roling is an exploit (ie : a use of a system in a way not intended by the developpers to get an unfair benefit), and exploit are forbidden by the ToS.
The problem does not lies with "fake dds" (ie dds that does to low damage), because it's not really a problem.
Does it happen? Yes, very rarely, both DD will obviously not be up to the task, and then again, it only has importance in veteran content, where it is excruciatingly rare.
Are those DDs doing something reprehensible? Absolutely not, they are just bad. Kick them out the run, and recruit another (DDs are aplenty, shouldn't take long).
But please, don't use those rare, edge cases, as an excuse to cheat. When you fake role, you hurt 3 other players. It's not fooling anyone, the only reason one does fake role is to get in queue faster.
I don’t know where you get ur estimates from, in vet queue when I play on a healer, fake dd now makes up about 10%, fake tank about 5%.
From my observations, your edge case in more prevalent than your main problem.
I suppose I must be so very exceptionnaly lucky, then. I only play in vet, and almost everytime, the damage is good.
And even then, if fake DDs makes 10% (I highly doubt it, but let's consider it for the sake of the argument) .. that means that the odds of having 2 bad DDs are 10% * 10% = 1%.
So, yeah .. edge cases put forward by fake roles as an excuse for their behaviour (also, As I said, if the fake tank is a so great and mighty DD, he might as well queue as one .. since that with him, the damage will be good, anyway)
EDIT :
of course, I'm not deluded enough to consider everything under 50k in a dungeon run "low". A player doing 20k, while far from exceptionnal, is plenty enough for me.
1. You are assuming getting each fake dd are independent events, which is not obvious, in fact they often queue together to block kick
2. I find your claim “more than 90% people show up in dd role in vet can do 20k dps” unbelievable
3. The probability a real dd good enough to carry a fake dd is not 100%, there is a big difference between (using ur numbers here) “doing 20k” and “carrying a dead weight and doing 35k+”
I’d say at most 1/2 of the real dd is capable of carrying a dead weight. So your 1% calculation is just false
I actually agree with point 3. I might be biased in the sense I can carry the occasionnal inadequate DD without hassle; and so, I tend to consider group damage as a whole to be good.
As for point 2, however, since I play on PC, I'm using add-on, and I know the % of damage I do in the group. I extrapolate from there when I say the % done by the other DD is mostly good, since I can use it to more or less "calculate" his actual DPS.. and it's rarely under 15k or so.
Point 1 is dubious, though. It certainly happens, but I don't think it's such a dire conspiracy.
This is not an excuse for fake roling, though. If you feel your DPS will make a difference, just play as one .. that will be one less "fake" DD to worry about.
For point 2: If you are updating your claim to “the 10th percentile is about 15k” instead of old claim “the 10th percentile is >20k” then i no longer object.
I find your new number is much more reasonable.
Now even you assume independency, since you accept my point 3, the probability of getting a group so bad and you can’t finish (<40k group dps, your number) is still more than probability of getting a fake tank.
And if you have not realized yet, most people complain about fake dd claim to be support main, we complain because our suffering are minimized on the forum by people full of prejudice, hypocrisy and xenophobia.Edited by ForzaRammer on 13 September 2023 23:040 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.
top arcanist is the other dps.
DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.
So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.
This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.
i know vet DS well, this ss does not really show much except 'maybe' the tank and healer could keep themselves alive while dealing damage, while the arcanist probably did not need much healing and maybe the templar died a few times
There was 1 death. The arcanist. They got hit by a double tick of the fire damage from Engine Guardian at the same time as one of the constructs did their ground wave attack.
The bottom templar had 43k health as the "DPS".
Next theory?
Edit: The templar "DPS" was over 1300 CP. so the "new player" or "they don't know" theories shouldn't apply.
I read through your entire conversation. It reminded me of why I avoid the GF to find a group and stick to guild groups. I never have a problem finding a tank when I am not tanking. The lack of awareness and low DPS I often found in GF groups was enough to drive me away from random grouping in ESO.
The best solution to avoiding a fake tank or any fake role is to pre-form the group to what one wants in the group. I found it well worth the time to search for a guild that worked for me. Granted, that is a choice but my experiences in dungeons are far superior to anything I saw with GF groups.
1 -
M0ntie✭✭✭✭✭Most of this thread is off topic - which is suggestions for improving the situation.
I agree that giving the option when queuing for group finder of 2+ dps would solve a lot of the problems. It supports "play as you want". People who wanted to run with 3 or 4 dps could, and it would reduce the long dps queue. Reducing the dps queue would reduce the motivation for people to queue as fake tanks and healers.
"fake" dps is almost entirely just dps that is below people's expectations. I'm sure the low dps aren't purposefully not hitting harder - they are probably newer players. The game doesn't even tell you what dps you are doing without add-ons or hitting a purchased dummy. Almost nobody specs their character as a tank or healer and queues as a dps - there is no motivation to do this.
Fake tanks, ie those with not even a taunt, and fake healers (ie those with no group heal) are consciously not even ATTEMPTING to fulfil the role they sign up for. They are effectively lying. Play as you want, but don't lie about what role you are attempting to play.2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Most of this thread is off topic - which is suggestions for improving the situation.
I agree that giving the option when queuing for group finder of 2+ dps would solve a lot of the problems. It supports "play as you want". People who wanted to run with 3 or 4 dps could, and it would reduce the long dps queue. Reducing the dps queue would reduce the motivation for people to queue as fake tanks and healers.
"fake" dps is almost entirely just dps that is below people's expectations. I'm sure the low dps aren't purposefully not hitting harder - they are probably newer players. The game doesn't even tell you what dps you are doing without add-ons or hitting a purchased dummy. Almost nobody specs their character as a tank or healer and queues as a dps - there is no motivation to do this.
Fake tanks, ie those with not even a taunt, and fake healers (ie those with no group heal) are consciously not even ATTEMPTING to fulfil the role they sign up for. They are effectively lying. Play as you want, but don't lie about what role you are attempting to play.
1. We already have the option to queue with whatever group makeup we want including 4 DPS. We just need to select the various roles to have the group meet the GF requirements. It has been this way since I started playing the game. Technically this is not play as you want as Zenimax has called it since that means a tank can also be build to do some DPS instead of the traditional S&B design. They just need to be able to taunt and actually use the taunt.
2. Ofc the low DPS are not purposefully trying to be low performers. However, they are a core reason real tanks avoid the GF. We do not have to put up with low DPS because we can get a decent group via our guild. It was my guild that pointed out I would not have the failures I was experiencing via the GF if I ran with the guild and that turned out to be so true.
3. The last point is just restating what this thread is about. We permit fake tanks which is why we have them. I already noted that in my previous post.
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ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Most of this thread is off topic - which is suggestions for improving the situation.
I agree that giving the option when queuing for group finder of 2+ dps would solve a lot of the problems. It supports "play as you want". People who wanted to run with 3 or 4 dps could, and it would reduce the long dps queue. Reducing the dps queue would reduce the motivation for people to queue as fake tanks and healers.
"fake" dps is almost entirely just dps that is below people's expectations. I'm sure the low dps aren't purposefully not hitting harder - they are probably newer players. The game doesn't even tell you what dps you are doing without add-ons or hitting a purchased dummy. Almost nobody specs their character as a tank or healer and queues as a dps - there is no motivation to do this.
Fake tanks, ie those with not even a taunt, and fake healers (ie those with no group heal) are consciously not even ATTEMPTING to fulfil the role they sign up for. They are effectively lying. Play as you want, but don't lie about what role you are attempting to play.
Intention is purely subjective, you see a "companion level" human dd as trying, i don't.
Newer players can go to normal where there is low to no expectations.
Most of the thread is about vet.1 -
AvalonRanger✭✭✭✭✭The "Moon Grave Fane".
This dungeon has much of "role certification" dungeon mech.
And, newest DLC dungeon require more role certification mech.
Then...
Why ZOS doesn't try to make role certification simple quest, and
role certification flag for the random grouping tools?
9years from 2014, It's time to solve fake role problem perfectly.
My playing time Mon-Friday UTC13:00-16:00 [PC-NA] CP over2000 now.
I have [1Tough tank] [1StamSorc-DD] [1Necro-DD] [1Real Healer]
with [1Stam Blade].
But, I'm Tank main player. Recently I'm doing Healer.
2023/12/21
By the way...Dungeon-Meshi(One of Famous Japanese fantasy story comic book) got finale...
Good-bye "King of Monster Eater".
2024/08/23
Farewell Atsuko Tanaka...(-_-) I never forget epic acting for major Motoko Kusanagi.0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭Im not against role certifications or quests. Lets see if the new Group Finder added in update 40 will solve some of the problems.0
