Post #9001 about fake queueing & how to fix?

NeuroticPixels

I played WoW for 15+ years. I did regular dungeons and “veteran”/heroic dungeons and a ridiculous amount of mythic dungeons after those were released.

The *only* time i had trouble with players queuing for a role that wasn’t what their character was built for was lowbie dungeons. Any regular dungeon that was for below max level characters, because lowbies were always overpowered so it didn’t matter.

So why is it such a problem on ESO but not (in my experience) WoW or possibly other MMOs? What could ESO change with group dungeons that would deter players from queuing as a fake role?

Obviously, we don’t work for Zenimax and the majority of us don’t really know how to code or create a video game. So everyone’s answers will mostly just be their thoughts and opinions. Don’t attack each other. Let’s just brainstorm on ideas of what could fix (or even only help) the issue of fake queuing.

xclassgaming

They could put in a commendation system like FF14 has, with a certain amount of coms in that game you can get things like transmog and mounts. granted its more of a plaster, but its a start.

LokiPagan

xclassgaming wrote: »

They could put in a commendation system like FF14 has, with a certain amount of coms in that game you can get things like transmog and mounts. granted its more of a plaster, but its a start.

Oh, that's a pretty good idea, I hadn't considered that. Still, I doubt it would stop the fake queue people, because right now they're doing it for only transmog stones/faster queue - you would have to remove transmogs as a reward for random, and that would cause way more problems.

Just add a report feature - if they're reported too many times, they're locked out of queueing for the day.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

An option to queue without role restrictions? Just a little checkbox to tell the game ‘just grab the next three free people in line I don’t care what their roles are just throw us in’?

It would probably be unwise to use said option in Veteran DLC dungeons, but for normal randoms most everyone just mows down the mobs anyway.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's dungeon related.

Thank you for your understanding

chessalavakia_ESO

First, I'm not sure ZOS actually wants to stop fake queuing.

You've likely seen logs posted that come from ESO's in-game logging function that show ability usage. ZOS could likely record the same thing server side for a bit and with some data processing could identify the most egregious fake queuing individuals and could action them for their choices and use the actions against them (and the complaining about them) to scare much of the rest of the game into behaving a bit more.

While not the most refined mitigation method, it'd probably be a cheapish one.

As for why it happens in ESO:

In ESO, much of the damage you can take in dungeons comes from mechanics.

As a result, a tank doesn't need to be that tanky to succeed they just need to know the mechanics.

Thus, players that are good and know the fights can get away with not actually being built like a tank in many of the dungeons. As others copy their behavior you end up with a mess.

This design approach also turns off people from wanting to be tanks. It creates a pressure to build your tank as a debuffer/buffer which isn't necessarily that appealing (People literally call sets to increase a tanks durability "selfish sets"). It puts pressure on players to memorize all of the fights in advance. Finally, in higher difficulty dungeons it frequently leaves tanks in the position of react or die.

The approach also impacts healers. Because the tanks aren't taking much damage, the healers are also pressured to be running buff builds and frequently don't have much actual healing to do unless someone messes up. Instead of feeling like a necessary and powerful force the reality is many of the dungeons would go just fine without you. In higher difficulty dungeons the damage from mechanics hits so hard you can't actually heal the damage people take before they are toast.

In ESO, healing amounts are quite high and healing abilities scale off of the same stats as damage and tanks have heals that scale off of their health.

Effectively, this means anyone in a group can choose to heal which puts a damper on the value of healers and can allow fake tanks to get away with faking more easily because they can fix their own mistakes. This also means that in easier content the healers can spend much of the time acting as additional DPS which makes it easier to burst things down before mechanics happen.

ESO has a massive gap in the amount of damage that players deal.

Normal dungeons are designed so that a group of people that aren't very good can complete them. As a result of that combined with the damage gap, many of the bosses in dungeons can be rapidly blown up by skilled/geared players sometimes even before the mechanics get a chance to fire which reduces the risk of faking.

The damage gap also raises the incentives for faking because how long a dungeon takes is significantly impacted by the amount of damage the group is doing. If the DPS aren't doing that much damage, faking and doing a ton of damage can significantly cut the time it takes to do a dungeon.

ESO's dungeon reward design is a factor.

The transmute reward don't factor in time at all which means anything that speed is to your advantage.

Speed is also generally an advantage when it comes to dungeon loot because generally the last boss is all that will have anything new for you after the first half a dozen times.

Thus, the people farming weapons and transmutes via dungeons can have a more effective time if they fake and as they run more dungeons than other people their faking is more of a disruption.

Faking can drive people to make their own groups

If you've got a shortage of a role, having people recruit players of that role to groups outside of the finder can make it harder for the finder to make groups.

For example, let's say 60% of the queue are DPS, 20% are Healers, and 20% are Tanks.

If 20% of the DPS queue outside of the queue and pull 10% of the healers and 10% of the tanks with them the other 40% of the DPS are left trying to make a match with the remain 10% of Healers and 10% Tanks.

boi_anachronism_

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

First, I'm not sure ZOS actually wants to stop fake queuing.

You've likely seen logs posted that come from ESO's in-game logging function that show ability usage. ZOS could likely record the same thing server side for a bit and with some data processing could identify the most egregious fake queuing individuals and could action them for their choices and use the actions against them (and the complaining about them) to scare much of the rest of the game into behaving a bit more.

While not the most refined mitigation method, it'd probably be a cheapish one.

As for why it happens in ESO:

In ESO, much of the damage you can take in dungeons comes from mechanics.

As a result, a tank doesn't need to be that tanky to succeed they just need to know the mechanics.

Thus, players that are good and know the fights can get away with not actually being built like a tank in many of the dungeons. As others copy their behavior you end up with a mess.

This design approach also turns off people from wanting to be tanks. It creates a pressure to build your tank as a debuffer/buffer which isn't necessarily that appealing (People literally call sets to increase a tanks durability "selfish sets"). It puts pressure on players to memorize all of the fights in advance. Finally, in higher difficulty dungeons it frequently leaves tanks in the position of react or die.

The approach also impacts healers. Because the tanks aren't taking much damage, the healers are also pressured to be running buff builds and frequently don't have much actual healing to do unless someone messes up. Instead of feeling like a necessary and powerful force the reality is many of the dungeons would go just fine without you. In higher difficulty dungeons the damage from mechanics hits so hard you can't actually heal the damage people take before they are toast.

In ESO, healing amounts are quite high and healing abilities scale off of the same stats as damage and tanks have heals that scale off of their health.

Effectively, this means anyone in a group can choose to heal which puts a damper on the value of healers and can allow fake tanks to get away with faking more easily because they can fix their own mistakes. This also means that in easier content the healers can spend much of the time acting as additional DPS which makes it easier to burst things down before mechanics happen.

ESO has a massive gap in the amount of damage that players deal.

Normal dungeons are designed so that a group of people that aren't very good can complete them. As a result of that combined with the damage gap, many of the bosses in dungeons can be rapidly blown up by skilled/geared players sometimes even before the mechanics get a chance to fire which reduces the risk of faking.

The damage gap also raises the incentives for faking because how long a dungeon takes is significantly impacted by the amount of damage the group is doing. If the DPS aren't doing that much damage, faking and doing a ton of damage can significantly cut the time it takes to do a dungeon.

ESO's dungeon reward design is a factor.

The transmute reward don't factor in time at all which means anything that speed is to your advantage.

Speed is also generally an advantage when it comes to dungeon loot because generally the last boss is all that will have anything new for you after the first half a dozen times.

Thus, the people farming weapons and transmutes via dungeons can have a more effective time if they fake and as they run more dungeons than other people their faking is more of a disruption.

Faking can drive people to make their own groups

If you've got a shortage of a role, having people recruit players of that role to groups outside of the finder can make it harder for the finder to make groups.

For example, let's say 60% of the queue are DPS, 20% are Healers, and 20% are Tanks.

If 20% of the DPS queue outside of the queue and pull 10% of the healers and 10% of the tanks with them the other 40% of the DPS are left trying to make a match with the remain 10% of Healers and 10% Tanks.

Honestly very few tanks want to deal with a 10 min boss shlog with dps that hit like noodles. Thats just a fact.. the vast majority run with guildies or friends. Cant say i blame them. Very few good tanks that i know will pug. I got a buddy who does it occasionally and always comes away with the "im never doing that again" attitude or he simply has to leave because they can not clear. Dps is so low and people have so little comprehension of mechs that the tank ends up not only tankin the boss but running around rezing people as well. I wouldnt ever pug if i was a tank. As a dps im experienced enough to carry the group even in a lot of vet content. I can slot a taunt and shield and hold the boss, make it work if we dont have one but its about as fun for me to become a tank after ive qued as a dps that it is for a tank to spend an hr in watching people floor dps.

Necrotech_Master

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

First, I'm not sure ZOS actually wants to stop fake queuing.

You've likely seen logs posted that come from ESO's in-game logging function that show ability usage. ZOS could likely record the same thing server side for a bit and with some data processing could identify the most egregious fake queuing individuals and could action them for their choices and use the actions against them (and the complaining about them) to scare much of the rest of the game into behaving a bit more.

While not the most refined mitigation method, it'd probably be a cheapish one.

As for why it happens in ESO:

In ESO, much of the damage you can take in dungeons comes from mechanics.

As a result, a tank doesn't need to be that tanky to succeed they just need to know the mechanics.

Thus, players that are good and know the fights can get away with not actually being built like a tank in many of the dungeons. As others copy their behavior you end up with a mess.

This design approach also turns off people from wanting to be tanks. It creates a pressure to build your tank as a debuffer/buffer which isn't necessarily that appealing (People literally call sets to increase a tanks durability "selfish sets"). It puts pressure on players to memorize all of the fights in advance. Finally, in higher difficulty dungeons it frequently leaves tanks in the position of react or die.

The approach also impacts healers. Because the tanks aren't taking much damage, the healers are also pressured to be running buff builds and frequently don't have much actual healing to do unless someone messes up. Instead of feeling like a necessary and powerful force the reality is many of the dungeons would go just fine without you. In higher difficulty dungeons the damage from mechanics hits so hard you can't actually heal the damage people take before they are toast.

In ESO, healing amounts are quite high and healing abilities scale off of the same stats as damage and tanks have heals that scale off of their health.

Effectively, this means anyone in a group can choose to heal which puts a damper on the value of healers and can allow fake tanks to get away with faking more easily because they can fix their own mistakes. This also means that in easier content the healers can spend much of the time acting as additional DPS which makes it easier to burst things down before mechanics happen.

ESO has a massive gap in the amount of damage that players deal.

Normal dungeons are designed so that a group of people that aren't very good can complete them. As a result of that combined with the damage gap, many of the bosses in dungeons can be rapidly blown up by skilled/geared players sometimes even before the mechanics get a chance to fire which reduces the risk of faking.

The damage gap also raises the incentives for faking because how long a dungeon takes is significantly impacted by the amount of damage the group is doing. If the DPS aren't doing that much damage, faking and doing a ton of damage can significantly cut the time it takes to do a dungeon.

ESO's dungeon reward design is a factor.

The transmute reward don't factor in time at all which means anything that speed is to your advantage.

Speed is also generally an advantage when it comes to dungeon loot because generally the last boss is all that will have anything new for you after the first half a dozen times.

Thus, the people farming weapons and transmutes via dungeons can have a more effective time if they fake and as they run more dungeons than other people their faking is more of a disruption.

Faking can drive people to make their own groups

If you've got a shortage of a role, having people recruit players of that role to groups outside of the finder can make it harder for the finder to make groups.

For example, let's say 60% of the queue are DPS, 20% are Healers, and 20% are Tanks.

If 20% of the DPS queue outside of the queue and pull 10% of the healers and 10% of the tanks with them the other 40% of the DPS are left trying to make a match with the remain 10% of Healers and 10% Tanks.

Honestly very few tanks want to deal with a 10 min boss shlog with dps that hit like noodles. Thats just a fact.. the vast majority run with guildies or friends. Cant say i blame them. Very few good tanks that i know will pug. I got a buddy who does it occasionally and always comes away with the "im never doing that again" attitude or he simply has to leave because they can not clear. Dps is so low and people have so little comprehension of mechs that the tank ends up not only tankin the boss but running around rezing people as well. I wouldnt ever pug if i was a tank. As a dps im experienced enough to carry the group even in a lot of vet content. I can slot a taunt and shield and hold the boss, make it work if we dont have one but its about as fun for me to become a tank after ive qued as a dps that it is for a tank to spend an hr in watching people floor dps.

yeah, i personally usually play a tank when i queue to get low queue times (though i usually have dps skills on my back bar, so i can still avg about 10k dps even while tanking)

i have been in the situation of vet darkshade 1 where the total group dps was 15k and my tank was doing 75% of that (i dont see this situation very often though)

boi_anachronism_

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

First, I'm not sure ZOS actually wants to stop fake queuing.

You've likely seen logs posted that come from ESO's in-game logging function that show ability usage. ZOS could likely record the same thing server side for a bit and with some data processing could identify the most egregious fake queuing individuals and could action them for their choices and use the actions against them (and the complaining about them) to scare much of the rest of the game into behaving a bit more.

While not the most refined mitigation method, it'd probably be a cheapish one.

As for why it happens in ESO:

In ESO, much of the damage you can take in dungeons comes from mechanics.

As a result, a tank doesn't need to be that tanky to succeed they just need to know the mechanics.

Thus, players that are good and know the fights can get away with not actually being built like a tank in many of the dungeons. As others copy their behavior you end up with a mess.

This design approach also turns off people from wanting to be tanks. It creates a pressure to build your tank as a debuffer/buffer which isn't necessarily that appealing (People literally call sets to increase a tanks durability "selfish sets"). It puts pressure on players to memorize all of the fights in advance. Finally, in higher difficulty dungeons it frequently leaves tanks in the position of react or die.

The approach also impacts healers. Because the tanks aren't taking much damage, the healers are also pressured to be running buff builds and frequently don't have much actual healing to do unless someone messes up. Instead of feeling like a necessary and powerful force the reality is many of the dungeons would go just fine without you. In higher difficulty dungeons the damage from mechanics hits so hard you can't actually heal the damage people take before they are toast.

In ESO, healing amounts are quite high and healing abilities scale off of the same stats as damage and tanks have heals that scale off of their health.

Effectively, this means anyone in a group can choose to heal which puts a damper on the value of healers and can allow fake tanks to get away with faking more easily because they can fix their own mistakes. This also means that in easier content the healers can spend much of the time acting as additional DPS which makes it easier to burst things down before mechanics happen.

ESO has a massive gap in the amount of damage that players deal.

Normal dungeons are designed so that a group of people that aren't very good can complete them. As a result of that combined with the damage gap, many of the bosses in dungeons can be rapidly blown up by skilled/geared players sometimes even before the mechanics get a chance to fire which reduces the risk of faking.

The damage gap also raises the incentives for faking because how long a dungeon takes is significantly impacted by the amount of damage the group is doing. If the DPS aren't doing that much damage, faking and doing a ton of damage can significantly cut the time it takes to do a dungeon.

ESO's dungeon reward design is a factor.

The transmute reward don't factor in time at all which means anything that speed is to your advantage.

Speed is also generally an advantage when it comes to dungeon loot because generally the last boss is all that will have anything new for you after the first half a dozen times.

Thus, the people farming weapons and transmutes via dungeons can have a more effective time if they fake and as they run more dungeons than other people their faking is more of a disruption.

Faking can drive people to make their own groups

If you've got a shortage of a role, having people recruit players of that role to groups outside of the finder can make it harder for the finder to make groups.

For example, let's say 60% of the queue are DPS, 20% are Healers, and 20% are Tanks.

If 20% of the DPS queue outside of the queue and pull 10% of the healers and 10% of the tanks with them the other 40% of the DPS are left trying to make a match with the remain 10% of Healers and 10% Tanks.

Honestly very few tanks want to deal with a 10 min boss shlog with dps that hit like noodles. Thats just a fact.. the vast majority run with guildies or friends. Cant say i blame them. Very few good tanks that i know will pug. I got a buddy who does it occasionally and always comes away with the "im never doing that again" attitude or he simply has to leave because they can not clear. Dps is so low and people have so little comprehension of mechs that the tank ends up not only tankin the boss but running around rezing people as well. I wouldnt ever pug if i was a tank. As a dps im experienced enough to carry the group even in a lot of vet content. I can slot a taunt and shield and hold the boss, make it work if we dont have one but its about as fun for me to become a tank after ive qued as a dps that it is for a tank to spend an hr in watching people floor dps.

yeah, i personally usually play a tank when i queue to get low queue times (though i usually have dps skills on my back bar, so i can still avg about 10k dps even while tanking)

i have been in the situation of vet darkshade 1 where the total group dps was 15k and my tank was doing 75% of that (i dont see this situation very often though)

It happens. Heck i was in vhrc the other night, solo healer (my buddy who is flippin op, solo heal vss pugs lol) solo tank, 10 friggin dps and it was still a 28 min run because 3 dps kept dying and only a few of those left hit decent numbers..

Lozeenge

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Honestly very few tanks want to deal with a 10 min boss shlog with dps that hit like noodles. Thats just a fact.. the vast majority run with guildies or friends. Cant say i blame them. Very few good tanks that i know will pug. I got a buddy who does it occasionally and always comes away with the "im never doing that again" attitude or he simply has to leave because they can not clear. Dps is so low and people have so little comprehension of mechs that the tank ends up not only tankin the boss but running around rezing people as well. I wouldnt ever pug if i was a tank. As a dps im experienced enough to carry the group even in a lot of vet content. I can slot a taunt and shield and hold the boss, make it work if we dont have one but its about as fun for me to become a tank after ive qued as a dps that it is for a tank to spend an hr in watching people floor dps.

absolutely this.

been running some normals during the event due to real-life time constraints. already three separate times had a tank leave as soon as the dungeon popped for whatever reason that compelled them to leave and endure a queue penalty during the "farm all the dungeons" event. honestly quite an absurd mentality, but whatever. slotting Inner Beast and ebegging for heals has worked out so far. free +10% damage for me!

there's simply not enough (real) tanks in the queue. actual players in the role are unhappy with the current skill gap to want to pug, and players that abuse it for faster queue times are either farming on autopilot regardless of their group composition or don't have enough patience for veteran because they're at the lower-end of the gap.

Jaimeh

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

First, I'm not sure ZOS actually wants to stop fake queuing.

This^ A while ago when there was another big discussion about roles in dungeons I remember ZOS officially took the stance 'play as you like', which boggles my mind because it can breed so much antisocial behaviour in the finder.

Back on topic, I think the simplest way they could implement something like this is a check point that examines if the player queued as the tank has a taunt ability slotted (of course that doesn't stop them from removing the ability when they port in, but if someone goes to the trouble of getting the skill and slotting it, there's more chance they'll actually use it during the run). It's sad to think though that systems have to be changed because players are basically inconsiderate to their group mates in an activity that's group-oriented, in a game that's an MMO... if people object so much to the rules of group play then why be in this kind of game in the first place...

xclassgaming

LokiPagan wrote: »

xclassgaming wrote: »

They could put in a commendation system like FF14 has, with a certain amount of coms in that game you can get things like transmog and mounts. granted its more of a plaster, but its a start.

Oh, that's a pretty good idea, I hadn't considered that. Still, I doubt it would stop the fake queue people, because right now they're doing it for only transmog stones/faster queue - you would have to remove transmogs as a reward for random, and that would cause way more problems.

Just add a report feature - if they're reported too many times, they're locked out of queueing for the day.

oh yeah i do agree, like i said it's more of a plaster on the wound then a fix, but it's a start. People would probaly comm people doing their real "jobs" more since they have enough insentive like getting cool mog or mount/s. Overall while it wouldnt fix the issue, i think it would go comeways to better...contain it.

pelle412

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

So why is it such a problem on ESO but not (in my experience) WoW or possibly other MMOs? What could ESO change with group dungeons that would deter players from queuing as a fake role?

For the very simple reason that those games have class specializations including tank specs. If you spec into one of those you're automatically generating a lot more threat than in a DPS spec so mobs aggro to you without doing anything special.

In ESO, there are no specializations. To be a tank you have to make that choice every second while in the dungeon, i.e. taunt this mob, dodge roll/block this or that, watch mobs aggroing to dps and taunt those. It's an active choice you have to do and keep doing for the whole dungeon run. In those other games, if you choose tank spec, you're a tank as long as you're trying to hit mobs.

In ESO you also only have 2 DPS slots per dungeon (as opposed to 3 in WoW) so there is a lot more competition in the queue. Additionally, the rewards for doing a random normal dungeon in ESO is stupid good compared to other content. This is why so many people choose tank group role to get faster queue and collect those sweet rewards. It's a system perfectly tailored to what is happening. It's not going to change until the high rewards are moved into some other content mode or ESO implements some form of forced specialization system (which would change a major part of the game).

ForzaRammer

pelle412 wrote: »

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

So why is it such a problem on ESO but not (in my experience) WoW or possibly other MMOs? What could ESO change with group dungeons that would deter players from queuing as a fake role?

For the very simple reason that those games have class specializations including tank specs. If you spec into one of those you're automatically generating a lot more threat than in a DPS spec so mobs aggro to you without doing anything special.

In ESO, there are no specializations. To be a tank you have to make that choice every second while in the dungeon, i.e. taunt this mob, dodge roll/block this or that, watch mobs aggroing to dps and taunt those. It's an active choice you have to do and keep doing for the whole dungeon run. In those other games, if you choose tank spec, you're a tank as long as you're trying to hit mobs.

In ESO you also only have 2 DPS slots per dungeon (as opposed to 3 in WoW) so there is a lot more competition in the queue. Additionally, the rewards for doing a random normal dungeon in ESO is stupid good compared to other content. This is why so many people choose tank group role to get faster queue and collect those sweet rewards. It's a system perfectly tailored to what is happening. It's not going to change until the high rewards are moved into some other content mode or ESO implements some form of forced specialization system (which would change a major part of the game).

Wow has dps meter displayed, this game does not, even figuring out who is dead weight takes effort.
The community need to hold fake dd responsible, at least in vet, if zos don't want to have dps displayed.

pelle412

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Wow has dps meter displayed, this game does not, even figuring out who is dead weight takes effort.
The community need to hold fake dd responsible, at least in vet, if zos don't want to have dps displayed.

That's still an addon in WoW, it just so happens everyone uses it. If everyone used HodorReflexes addon you'd see their damage but most don't use it.

EDIT: I think as long as one person has that addon they can see everyone's damage in WoW.

preevious

The only solution is to report them systematically, untill Zenimax finally takes action to curb that horrible behaviour.
Fake roling is an exploit (ie : a use of a system in a way not intended by the developpers to get an unfair benefit), and exploit are forbidden by the ToS.

The problem does not lies with "fake dds" (ie dds that does to low damage), because it's not really a problem.
Does it happen? Yes, very rarely, both DD will obviously not be up to the task, and then again, it only has importance in veteran content, where it is excruciatingly rare.
Are those DDs doing something reprehensible? Absolutely not, they are just bad. Kick them out the run, and recruit another (DDs are aplenty, shouldn't take long).
But please, don't use those rare, edge cases, as an excuse to cheat. When you fake role, you hurt 3 other players. It's not fooling anyone, the only reason one does fake role is to get in queue faster.

Braffin

preevious wrote: »

The only solution is to report them systematically, untill Zenimax finally takes action to curb that horrible behaviour.
Fake roling is an exploit (ie : a use of a system in a way not intended by the developpers to get an unfair benefit), and exploit are forbidden by the ToS.

The problem does not lies with "fake dds" (ie dds that does to low damage), because it's not really a problem.
Does it happen? Yes, very rarely, both DD will obviously not be up to the task, and then again, it only has importance in veteran content, where it is excruciatingly rare.
Are those DDs doing something reprehensible? Absolutely not, they are just bad. Kick them out the run, and recruit another (DDs are aplenty, shouldn't take long).
But please, don't use those rare, edge cases, as an excuse to cheat. When you fake role, you hurt 3 other players. It's not fooling anyone, the only reason one does fake role is to get in queue faster.

You name the main reason why real tanks and healers aren't present in queues (the stubborn veteran fake dd) and nonetheless refuse to acknowledge this problem.

Instead you once again spread your hating all over this forums. Yikes!

Mesite

Fake queuing is like light attack weaving
- everyone complained about that before it was accepted.

This is how people play the game. I watch players in my group to see how well they perform if/when someone drops out.

Are there many content creators who have sites that indicate how to build for that eventuality? (Or regularity). I remember reading a website about tanking that had some hybrid builds, before hybrid was a thing.

svendf

Low dps are somehing you will meet in every Mmo. In 14 I play a paladin (tank), whitemage (healer), Ninja (dd) and a Redmage (DD support). Mostly Paladin and Redmage.

In low dps situations you are put to the test as a tank - so did I on my Paladin. In Eso tanks have low dps and can´t realy figure out, why ZoS want it that way - same goes for healers.

Everyone will be put to the test - as new player´s arrive all the time. In Eso Im not so sure about new player´s arrive and stay.

Doesn´t matter how bad it will look, we will alway´s do better without the fake roles and speedsters + skipers. They are not doing the new player´s any favor.

Eso seems to be the Mmo, who have to be upside down. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear

PS
The moment Eso will add specialized roles, I for sure will return to dungeons again - and remember the speedsters have to die before they get too fare ahead of the group

ForzaRammer

preevious wrote: »

The only solution is to report them systematically, untill Zenimax finally takes action to curb that horrible behaviour.
Fake roling is an exploit (ie : a use of a system in a way not intended by the developpers to get an unfair benefit), and exploit are forbidden by the ToS.

The problem does not lies with "fake dds" (ie dds that does to low damage), because it's not really a problem.
Does it happen? Yes, very rarely, both DD will obviously not be up to the task, and then again, it only has importance in veteran content, where it is excruciatingly rare.
Are those DDs doing something reprehensible? Absolutely not, they are just bad. Kick them out the run, and recruit another (DDs are aplenty, shouldn't take long).
But please, don't use those rare, edge cases, as an excuse to cheat. When you fake role, you hurt 3 other players. It's not fooling anyone, the only reason one does fake role is to get in queue faster.

I don’t know where you get ur estimates from, in vet queue when I play on a healer, fake dd now makes up about 10%, fake tank about 5%.

From my observations, your edge case in more prevalent than your main problem.

svendf

While fake roles are easy to report and should be. The story is a bit different with, low dps - it´s like reporting a new player learning, or is it a player, who just give a flying bird about the group they are in, or are they just testing harder content.

tmbrinks

the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.

top arcanist is the other dps.

DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.

So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.

This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.

Daoin

tmbrinks wrote: »

the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.

top arcanist is the other dps.

DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.

So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.

This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.

i know vet DS well, this ss does not really show much except 'maybe' the tank and healer could keep themselves alive while dealing damage, while the arcanist probably did not need much healing and maybe the templar died a few times

Braffin

Daoin wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.

top arcanist is the other dps.

DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.

So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.

This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.

i know vet DS well, this ss does not really show much except 'maybe' the tank and healer could keep themselves alive while dealing damage, while the arcanist probably did not need much healing and maybe the templar died a few times

My bet is that the templar didn't die once.

tmbrinks

Daoin wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.

top arcanist is the other dps.

DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.

So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.

This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.

i know vet DS well, this ss does not really show much except 'maybe' the tank and healer could keep themselves alive while dealing damage, while the arcanist probably did not need much healing and maybe the templar died a few times

There was 1 death. The arcanist. They got hit by a double tick of the fire damage from Engine Guardian at the same time as one of the constructs did their ground wave attack.

The bottom templar had 43k health as the "DPS".

Next theory?

Edit: The templar "DPS" was over 1300 CP. so the "new player" or "they don't know" theories shouldn't apply.

Daoin

your bets are irrelivent to me as you said once before you dont take anything i say seriously

Daoin

tmbrinks wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.

top arcanist is the other dps.

DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.

So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.

This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.

i know vet DS well, this ss does not really show much except 'maybe' the tank and healer could keep themselves alive while dealing damage, while the arcanist probably did not need much healing and maybe the templar died a few times

There was 1 death. The arcanist. They got hit by a double tick of the fire damage from Engine Guardian at the same time as one of the constructs did their ground wave attack.

The bottom templar had 43k health as the "DPS".

Next theory?

Edit: The templar "DPS" was over 1300 CP. so the "new player" or "they don't know" theories shouldn't apply.

dont need one knowing he had 43k health and the arcanist died, your name is familiar though. do you play dd on this healer too ?
Edit: but you play dd with this healer right ?
Edit: and infact this is your dd in our groups ?

Braffin

tmbrinks wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.

top arcanist is the other dps.

DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.

So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.

This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.

i know vet DS well, this ss does not really show much except 'maybe' the tank and healer could keep themselves alive while dealing damage, while the arcanist probably did not need much healing and maybe the templar died a few times

There was 1 death. The arcanist. They got hit by a double tick of the fire damage from Engine Guardian at the same time as one of the constructs did their ground wave attack.

The bottom templar had 43k health as the "DPS".

Next theory?

Edit: The templar "DPS" was over 1300 CP. so the "new player" or "they don't know" theories shouldn't apply.

What weapons did the templar use? S&B + healing staff?

tmbrinks

Braffin wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.

top arcanist is the other dps.

DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.

So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.

This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.

i know vet DS well, this ss does not really show much except 'maybe' the tank and healer could keep themselves alive while dealing damage, while the arcanist probably did not need much healing and maybe the templar died a few times

There was 1 death. The arcanist. They got hit by a double tick of the fire damage from Engine Guardian at the same time as one of the constructs did their ground wave attack.

The bottom templar had 43k health as the "DPS".

Next theory?

Edit: The templar "DPS" was over 1300 CP. so the "new player" or "they don't know" theories shouldn't apply.

What weapons did the templar use? S&B + healing staff?

Double barred 2-handers (or never cast a LA or HA on backbar), had too many skills to be 1-bar only.

Most common cast was a heavy attack that did only 3.1k damage each cast.

Highest damaging skill was stampede

Braffin

tmbrinks wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

the 4th on the list (the 2nd templar) was the 2nd dps.

top arcanist is the other dps.

DK and Elearium (which is me) were the tank and healer, and were actually doing their role.

So, the "good" dps was doing equivalent damage to a real tank and healer... and the other was not even half.

This is vet Darkshade II - Grobull through the final boss... thank goodness it's an easy dungeon.

i know vet DS well, this ss does not really show much except 'maybe' the tank and healer could keep themselves alive while dealing damage, while the arcanist probably did not need much healing and maybe the templar died a few times

There was 1 death. The arcanist. They got hit by a double tick of the fire damage from Engine Guardian at the same time as one of the constructs did their ground wave attack.

The bottom templar had 43k health as the "DPS".

Next theory?

Edit: The templar "DPS" was over 1300 CP. so the "new player" or "they don't know" theories shouldn't apply.

What weapons did the templar use? S&B + healing staff?

Double barred 2-handers (or never cast a LA or HA on backbar), had too many skills to be 1-bar only.

Most common cast was a heavy attack that did only 3.1k damage each cast.

Highest damaging skill was stampede

Ah, I see, the "righteous paladin" archetype. 🤣

Daoin

but this is still infact your dd your healing with in the group right ? thankfully the guys name is unknown but would you like it if i showed your dps from groups in this argument ? (discussion)