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OK, I'm convinced. Vamp is overpowered in PvP.
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Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭vizionblind_ESO wrote: »get rid of them altogether
I wouldn't go that far. They just need some adjustment so they aren't the equivalent of a raid boss. Vampires are supposed to be powerful, but with serious downsides to balance it out such that being one is a choice instead of an "I win" button."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Clakz✭tjrichards01_ESO wrote: »vampires are not op ppl just to dumb to use bows and spells vamps die extremely fast at range, but since ppl too stupid to say out of melee range all they do is feed the bat swarm making the person immune to damage THIS ISNT BROKEN ITS SUPPOSED TO WORK LIKE THAT, u run in i pop bats i get health if u and 20 other ppl run in i take health from everyone, but if everyone is at range i cant charge my bats or get my health back and i die almost instantly.
-VR2 DK vamp
Writing your convictions in capslock doesn't make it more true or justified somehow. Much like you I see others suggesting that a group of 20 to 40 players treat a single vampire like a raid boss. That in itself is simply fallacious. I'd then also immediately agree with what several others have stated. And that is that Vampirism ought to be a choice, not something mandatory. Which it is as it stands if you aim to thrive in PvP.
Mind you, I'd rather classify thriving in PvP in Cyrodill by working as a group than rolling the right class, picking up Vampirism and going to town on your own.
I'm not advocating people should be able to play poorly and beat someone else, be they vampire or not. But that is the crux. One poor player duking it out with an average or good player should lose. Twenty or fourty poor players should probably kill one player ten times over, no matter their skill. And even then it's highly unlikely all of these players are poor.
The combination of ultimate cost reduction gear sets, certain class skills and the Vampire ultimate is broken. It happens. It's not going to be the first nor the last time either. But defending something this broken goes against any measure of common sense. I'm then also sad that the announced changes/nerfs don't actually get to the root of things.
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NakedSnake✭✭✭Zershar_Vemod wrote: »So OP, was this vamp a DK, Sorc, or Emperor?
Because I'd really like to know how these rare cases are occurring; I have never seen the ability to create circumstances like this on my NB main - I'm willing to bet this player was at least an Emperor.
Exactly
How can Vampires be OP when they only have one offensive skill/passive?
It is obvious that the real problem is class imbalance.ZOS_TristanK wrote: »Hi, folks. We wanted to let you know that we are actively monitoring and working to balance Vampires. In our recent reddit AUA, we stated that the following tweaks are coming soon in a future patch:- Fixed the bug where multiple Bat Swarms can be stacked on the same Vampire.
- Reduced the movement speed bonus during mist form to 30% (which makes it equivalent to the "Boundless storm" morph of Lightning form)
- Reduced the Vampire ability cost reduction to 7% per stage
We'll continue to keep an eye on Vampires in PvP, and want to thank you for your feedback!
Actually i really should laugh bout that. Especially about the feedback part.
What you guys did, was not listen to feedback but to "whiners" and "ranters" who of course had a serious point with the vampire issue but didnt even understand what the real problem was / is.
I am a vamp player and planned my dunmer vamp back in january during the beta and i can tell you for sure what you are about to do with this patch will change nothing except of nerfing the wrong ppl.
PVE vampire players and those who dont abuse bat swarm + mist form.
Actually the real problem with us vamps is that
1. We are able to heal ourselfs while using mist form since the bat swarm healing isnt implemented as healing in this game but as drain and therefore allows us to get healed while using mist form wich shouldn't be the case.
2. The ridiculous ultimate cost reduction that can be achieved while playing a sorc or a dk and, wich actually isnt a vampire related problem at all but a general one because of all the vet. set items that reduce ult. cost. And to make it even more worse there is another introduced iirc.
These would have been the 2 points that needed a rework or "fix" on your side in order to solve the vamp problem.
Mist form alone, wasnt op at all. Just like the bat swarm ultimate alone isnt op in any way. But allowing us to combine both in order to negate the "you can't get healed part" of mist form - since bat swarm is a drain and not a heal - is utterly wrong.
What you are about to do, is nothing else but punishing those vampires, who arent abusing these mechanisms. Honestly i really appreciate your attempt to solve the vampire problem since it definately needs to be solved.
But this, is the wrong way to do it sorry.
QFT
Edited by NakedSnake on 5 May 2014 05:58"Brilliant! Why is it that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the ones who are most certain of them?"0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If the problem is class imbalance then we'd see lone, non-vampire sorcerers and DKs mowing down armies. That is not the case however.
Now it may turn out that the problem could very well be coming from a certain combination of vampire and class, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's only vampires doing raid boss impressions in PvP at the moment. (And don't say "emperor" because he is obviously the exception to the rules.) That strongly indicates that the issue is with vampires in particular and that the fix should reflect that."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
NakedSnake✭✭✭We do see exactly that. Before swarm it was standard, before mist it was bolt. Ultimate cost reduction and broken skills is not simply a vampire problem."Brilliant! Why is it that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the ones who are most certain of them?"1
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Neferath✭✭✭NakedSnake wrote: »We do see exactly that. Before swarm it was standard, before mist it was bolt. Ultimate cost reduction and broken skills is not simply a vampire problem.
/sign0 -
NakedSnake wrote: »We do see exactly that. Before swarm it was standard, before mist it was bolt. Ultimate cost reduction and broken skills is not simply a vampire problem.
/sign
Just wait until people start realizing that you can spam shooting star for due to the ult gain. Which was going to be my build originally.0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NakedSnake wrote: »We do see exactly that. Before swarm it was standard, before mist it was bolt. Ultimate cost reduction and broken skills is not simply a vampire problem.
Show me.
Show me a non-vampire dragon knight or a sorcerer slaughtering thirty people at once without a scratch on him. Show me those thirty people having their attacks reduced to little more than spitwads as they try to take down this lone enemy player.
As far as ultimate cost reduction is concerned, the only class with that is the sorcerer, who gets 15% with full investment in the passive. In other words, he only gets 15% further ultimate cost reduction compared to what everybody else can get. Hardly game breaking, and they are a bit shy on self heals where the class is concerned. Meaning even if this magically enabled them to spam an ultimate ad infinitum, they won't survive long enough for it to do them that much good.
And the dragon knight? Near as I can tell, he just gets a passive that gives him one or two extra ultimate points when he activates abilities in a particular skill line. So he gets 12 points instead of 10, or 17 instead of 15 or whatever the numbers are. Big whoop. He gets to cast is ultimate one extra time every fifty activations or something. And only if he spams skills from that particular line.
Thus far I have seen no evidence that either of these classes are anywhere near as significantly overpowered as vampires are."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Neferath✭✭✭
Dk and sorc vamps still will be op since the real problems haven't been adressed with this "hotfix"
1st the combination fo mis+bat swarm in order to negate the "you wont get any healing part while in mist" since bat swarm is a drain but not a healing.
2nd the rediculous amount of ult. cost reduction you are able to achieve while plaing sorc and dk and using the proper vet set items.
This fix will do nothing more than punish all pve vamps and those who didn't abuse the mist+bat+ult red. mechanism and i state that while beeing a sorc vamp pvp player who would love to see that problem solved.0 -
NakedSnake✭✭✭NakedSnake wrote: »We do see exactly that. Before swarm it was standard, before mist it was bolt. Ultimate cost reduction and broken skills is not simply a vampire problem.
Show me.
Show me a non-vampire dragon knight or a sorcerer slaughtering thirty people at once without a scratch on him. Show me those thirty people having their attacks reduced to little more than spitwads as they try to take down this lone enemy player.
As far as ultimate cost reduction is concerned, the only class with that is the sorcerer, who gets 15% with full investment in the passive. In other words, he only gets 15% further ultimate cost reduction compared to what everybody else can get. Hardly game breaking, and they are a bit shy on self heals where the class is concerned. Meaning even if this magically enabled them to spam an ultimate ad infinitum, they won't survive long enough for it to do them that much good.
And the dragon knight? Near as I can tell, he just gets a passive that gives him one or two extra ultimate points when he activates abilities in a particular skill line. So he gets 12 points instead of 10, or 17 instead of 15 or whatever the numbers are. Big whoop. He gets to cast is ultimate one extra time every fifty activations or something. And only if he spams skills from that particular line.
Thus far I have seen no evidence that either of these classes are anywhere near as significantly overpowered as vampires are.
Search is your friend, but before you do that try reading through this thread as many have already posted the various combination of game mechanic's that cause this phenomenon.
"Brilliant! Why is it that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the ones who are most certain of them?"0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NakedSnake wrote: »NakedSnake wrote: »We do see exactly that. Before swarm it was standard, before mist it was bolt. Ultimate cost reduction and broken skills is not simply a vampire problem.
Show me.
Show me a non-vampire dragon knight or a sorcerer slaughtering thirty people at once without a scratch on him. Show me those thirty people having their attacks reduced to little more than spitwads as they try to take down this lone enemy player.
As far as ultimate cost reduction is concerned, the only class with that is the sorcerer, who gets 15% with full investment in the passive. In other words, he only gets 15% further ultimate cost reduction compared to what everybody else can get. Hardly game breaking, and they are a bit shy on self heals where the class is concerned. Meaning even if this magically enabled them to spam an ultimate ad infinitum, they won't survive long enough for it to do them that much good.
And the dragon knight? Near as I can tell, he just gets a passive that gives him one or two extra ultimate points when he activates abilities in a particular skill line. So he gets 12 points instead of 10, or 17 instead of 15 or whatever the numbers are. Big whoop. He gets to cast is ultimate one extra time every fifty activations or something. And only if he spams skills from that particular line.
Thus far I have seen no evidence that either of these classes are anywhere near as significantly overpowered as vampires are.
Search is your friend, but before you do that try reading through this thread as many have already posted the various combination of game mechanic's that cause this phenomenon.
Nobody has shown why the fix should reside in the sorc/DK class rather than the vampire skill line or mechanics. Neferath mentioned a mechanical issue with vampires that does in fact get addressed with the nerf, though not the way he expected or wanted I should think.
Mist form got slowed down so they cant run away as easy, and it's more expensive, limiting the time that they have that damage reduction. Add the bug fix for stacking bat swarms and the effectiveness of mist+swarm combo is greatly reduced. Which is theoretically better than simply eliminating the option entirely.
The ultimate cost reduction, which he, you, and some others seem to think is the real problem with vampires and, also according to you, is apparently turning sorcerers and dragon knights into walking gods, there is currently no evidence of that causing a game breaking level problem that only the devs could correct. Unlike vampires, where there was quite clearly something wrong that allowed some individuals to become virtual demigods.Edited by Glurin on 6 May 2014 04:19"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Jarnhand✭✭✭My main is a DK, been so since beta. ESO is NOT a game where I will play many alts, due to the nature of PvE (a looooooooong list of things needed to be done to become good at level 50), although I am a altaholic by nature. Anyway...
A DK does NOT have Ult cost reduction skills, none. The only passive a DK has that generate a LITTLE bit faster REGEN of ulti is in Earthen spec, the least used spec line. When I activate an Earthen spec skill I generate a little bit more ulti. But it is not a cost reduction, and it is just a little bit more gain.
And the Akiviri set is a heavy armor set, ANYONE can use it (and many does), its NOT a DK class thing.
The problem with abusive vamps/emps was that they used Sorc or DK as class, then stacked/abused broken vamp abilities + all the stacking gear and emp passive that made the ulti cost almost zero, so they could spam ulti (and stack batswarm) + also spam other magica skills due to insane regen from emperor etc.
And no, there are not DKs soloing sergs,15 or even 5 players. The hardest DK I have run into was a VR10 VAMP DK. But 2-4 low VR players took him down.
The DK is SUPPOSED to be the tank in this game, anyone can use heavy armor, but the DK is the typical tank class. So if you think they should be taken down easily by a level 50 VR1 in bad gear and no skills, you are clueless about game balance.
So; what is this magical skill that gives a DK a ulti reduction cost? Show it or shut up already!
Vamps have tried to blame the problem on Sorc and DK class for weeks, when it clearly is a problem that came due to vamp skill line, which ISNT a class, its a additional skill line on top of the class. When you take that skill line and add it to a class, and things suddenly go bananas, its the skill line that first and foremost needs to be looked into, not the base class.
Sure, there are skills in all classes that maybe needs to be nerfed, and also some will be in 1.1, but vamps have desperately tried to shift focus over to the Sorc and DK classes for weeks, when the obvious problem was the vampire skill line. Its absurd if you think this could go on unnerfed, it was majorly game breaking and should have been hotfixed weeks ago. Zenimax should never had let it slide this long, Cyrodiil turned into a clownbin of vamps. People who think this was ok, need to go back to playing single player games, its THAT simple!
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Also chars being able to use the different armor actives WITHOUT using the specific type of armor, should be fixed, this is broken game design.
Its kinda ironic light armor users using heavy armor active skill. This is a skill designed for tanks to get into melee range, not for casters running around immune to CCs nuking people from range, plus on top of that having bolt escape.
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dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Also chars being able to use the different armor actives WITHOUT using the specific type of armor, should be fixed, this is broken game design.
Its kinda ironic light armor users using heavy armor active skill. This is a skill designed for tanks to get into melee range, not for casters running around immune to CCs nuking people from range, plus on top of that having bolt escape.
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actually i use heavy+light combo purely to even out my stats so they dont cap, and i'v the heavy skill so yaknow.
but i agree, the vampire skill reduction stacking with other sources is the issue, that and mist form bats allowing a heal when it's not ment to.
easiest cure? a cap on ulti reduction, same should apply to bash increasesPLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
NakedSnake✭✭✭@Glurin Please don't put words in my mouth.
It is the combination of gear sets and broken skills (not just cost reduction) that make them OP."Brilliant! Why is it that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the ones who are most certain of them?"0