Some skills really need an instant effect when purgeed. For example, some dots can instantly deal the remaining damage.

UPDATE 29:
Characters now also take 10% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system.
Characters now also start with 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage regardless of your level.

I think this is when everything changed in my opinion.

There isn't really a fix for this type of thing. There's a lot of ways to say it and points to make but overall people just don't want to die but want others to die.

The best actually fix that isn't really viable would be to just balance the game towards skill.

This is not viable because while it's a better measure of combat it's just not great for mass appeal.

The game has to appeal to new players and having higher ttk being available is just a part of that.

I do think the group heals and buffs need to be looked at. People are more ok with dying in a group but this isn't really always working out because of the stacked healing and buffs situation.

i11ionward wrote: »

Some skills really need an instant effect when purgeed. For example, some dots can instantly deal the remaining damage.

This should be managed carefully. If dots just deal their remaining damage on purging, there's not much reason to purge them any way, is there?
On that subject, I think ZOS needs to clarify the difference between purging and other forms of removal. On of the reasons for the strength of the Mara's Balm set was that is heal applied on any type of removal for negative effects. Purge it yourself? Heal. The timer runs out naturally? Heal. The enemy re-applies the effect with another cast? Heal; because the old debuff was removed as the refresh was applied.

Stamicka wrote: »

I agree that heal stacking should be nerfed, I don't think healing itself should be nerfed though. I would be fine with no heal stacking of the same morphs altogether. I think it should only be different morphs that stack. The most recently applied HOT is the one that overrides the others and when grouped you can only heal and be healed by your group members.

Yes, heal stacking was my main concern, as that turns to the most ridiculous results.

However, you go to the Bergana wayshrine in Alik'r and watch duels, you'll find that a bunch of 1v1s also take ages. And it's not that rare to see duels end by people getting bored, and calling a draw

i11ionward wrote: »

[quote="Woodenplank;d-637242"

More dots, more dots, more dots
Give some of the lost power back to the Damage over time effects, and let people counteract the constancy of healing with constancy of DotS. Right now the meta feels very topped-off and safe or zero health and confused about how quickly you died. Death recaps in Cyrodiil are typically just like so and so Vicious Death, somesuch Plaguebreak, X amount Liquid Lightning Synergy, Y amount Dragonknight Standard synergy, etc. etc.

No, DOT metas don't solve anything and once again are tools of the tanks. The use of DOTS + Defiles is a way to kill people without having to invest in damage. Burst is better.[/quote]
Why can't DOTs be the tools of non-tanks? And what makes burst inherently better?
I'd say right now, burst is superior because doesn't allow your target's HOTs to out-perform you. I'd also argue that this is why Nightblades are so strong right now (part of it, any way).

I don't want to be misconstrued here, I'm not saying "burst is trashy gameplay; nerf it to the ground and make everything about DOTs!!!!" - I want DOTs to see a moderate little buff; perhaps just increased SD/WD scalings without changing base values.
... I want ZOS to be bold in experimenting with mechanics, but conservative with the values. I don't mean to bash, but the devs have been somewhat 'hamfisted' in their approaches to nerfs and buffs in the past. Such as halving all DoT DPS from one update to the next...

Stamicka wrote: »

- Vampirism: A big issue right now is Vampire. Undeath passive is really the only thing vampire has going for it, but it's just too strong and it gives a crazy amount of mitigation that starts scaling immediately. It needs to be adjusted.

I agree to some extent. Vampirism went from being auto-include in PVE (pre-Greymoor) to auto-include in PVP for the Undeath passive.
However, I'm not sure if Undeath should be nerfed, or the penalties should increase. Force vampires to actually invest more in vampiric abilities (since using only non-vamp skills would be too hard to sustain)? This is more about flavour... that being a vampire should actually require some... vampirism.

Stamicka wrote: »

- Max Health: Max Health pools are too high. 30k+ is too much and the average should be brought down to 25k and below. This could happen in a variety of ways, but I think it needs to be done.

I don't think max health is the problem. You look at the strongest defensive sets for the past several cycles (you mention the most infamous trio in your own next point) have not been about stacking health. Rallying Cry and Mara's Balm? Not a single line of max health. Pariah does have 1 line of max health, but it's about the armor.

Of course, reducing all sources of max health would bring tankiness down, but I don't think it's the best way to go about it.

Stamicka wrote: »

- Certain Sets Need to Go: Sets like Pariah, Maras, and even Rallying Cry give too much defensive power.

"Need to Go" is a spooky sentence. I realize that some sets do get out of line, but I'm always hesitant to call nerfs. For one thing, the meta-defensive sets are soon replaced with 2nd tier stuff; or the devs feel the need to just release new strong defensive options any way, so we don't run into the Pariah-is-the-only-viable-option-left meta of yore.

But most importantly... it makes Players incredibly b***hurt. The bitterness of having spent millions on golding out jewelry, armor, and weapons of your strongest sets only to have them blasted into the D-tier of gear makes for very unhappy customers.

Stamicka wrote: »

- Core Combat Costs/ Sustain: This one is only somewhat of a problem. The game should encourage timed blocks and timed rolls. Right now people can roll and block SO much for a variety of reasons (there's red CP thats partially responsible). You don't have to think about when to block or roll, you can constantly do those things with very little penalty. This needs adjustment.

If these things are adjusted, healing strength won't even matter. We need to get back to a place where not blocking/rolling/shielding at the right time means you get bursted. Back in the day it didn't matter if you had amazing healing, a curse + frag + endless fury would 100-0 your health bar. Damage right now is high enough to do this if vampirism and high health pools weren't a thing. The game was designed around burst killing. It needs to come back.

I think Timed blocking is a good mechanic for slower, melee-oriented combat games that function on small scales, like For Honor, Dark Souls (okay Dark Souls has Parry instead of timed block, but close enough), and such. But I don't think it'd work in ESO.
The ESO attack that lends itself best to a timed-block style counter would be fully-charged Heavy attacks. However, for the past six years Fully-Charged Heavy attacks haven't been about landing damage, but just this underutilized resource sustain thing, or awkward proc-set condition.

In ESO there's simply too much random **** ticking, proc'ing, or coming in from off-screen all the time. Very few abilities are telegraphed long enough to make a difference for regular-block vs. timed - In my opinion any way.

With that being said; I agree that ZOS should look to such core sustain issues first.
Instead of blanket-nerfing any purging effect by introducing Plaguebreak, they could've added a Purge-fatigue to increase the cost of spamming. Instead of buffing durability across the board, make block a little better but costlier, so you have to think of when you can afford to trade stamina for survivability, and when you'll just have to take the unblocked hit.
People roll-dodging with impunity? Well maybe nerf the Roll-Dodge cost reduction on Medium armor.

There's a lot of things they can tweak to push meta in one direction or the other, but sadly their strategy for the longest time has been to throw another proc set or two at the issue...

i11ionward wrote: »

The enemy usually does not apply one dot, you usually get 5-10 debuffs from him.

Do you mean that some DOTs also apply a lot of other debuffs? Or are you saying there's no need to "be careful" about the Purge-effects of DOTs, because people often have a lot of other debuffs any way?

i11ionward wrote: »

And a debuff or dot with the instant effect is just a small benefit to the enemy that his resources and GCD were not wasted due to one purge.

It's not a waste if you made your enemy cast Purge, is it? I mean they also "wasted" resources and GCD on removing the dot.

My point was that, for e.g. Dragonknight Venomous Claw dealing "its remaining damage on being removed" would just make Purging it useless. Its only effect would be to make you take damage faster, and let your enemy reapply it.
If we're buffing DOTs to have this effect, Purges might get dropped from PVP altogether; it'd be like everyone wearing Plaguebreak.

i11ionward wrote: »

And the instant effect may not necessarily be damage, it may be a stun, a hold, or, in the end, a silence.

Ah, now that's more like it. And I agree this could be pretty cool.

A fundamental issue is that the game only has randomized cleanses. It's always 2-5 effects removed (or ALL effects), and no way to choose which. Purging with a bunch of different effects on because a wierd dice-roll mechanic. You might Purge all the instant-effect ones, and get screwed, or you're succesfully removing a bunch of harmless ones. And Players can't influence which.

Woodenplank wrote: »

It's not a waste if you made your enemy cast Purge, is it? I mean they also "wasted" resources and GCD on removing the dot.

Yes, it's quite fair (I knew that someone would cite this situation as an example).
But if you "wasted" three GCDs on dots and the opponent "wasted" only one on purge, it's not so fair anymore, is it?

OBJnoob wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Woodenplank wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Some skills really need an instant effect when purgeed. For example, some dots can instantly deal the remaining damage.

This should be managed carefully. If dots just deal their remaining damage on purging, there's not much reason to purge them any way, is there?

Not really. The enemy usually does not apply one dot, you usually get 5-10 debuffs from him. And a debuff or dot with the instant effect is just a small benefit to the enemy that his resources and GCD were not wasted due to one purge. And the instant effect may not necessarily be damage, it may be a stun, a hold, or, in the end, a silence.

Yeah, I'm still thinking this is a good idea. Not that I want many abilities to operate like this but if a few were sprinkled in here and there you could use it as an excuse to increase class diversity. Which would spice up balance and the meta from a class standpoint if not a gear one. Like okay DKs are the strongest and maybe that stays the same. But if templars really had their number. If DoTs were more the DK identity like it used to be, and templars could purge most of the pressure, then you'd see an influx of templars to combat the influx of DKs. But then maybe say, Curse stops being purgeable. In fact maybe not only can it not be purged but if you try to purge it then you get both explosions at once. Now too many templars are met with certain players hopping on their sorcs. But those same sorcs tend to lose to DKs because of all the DoTs. Imagine newly highlighted identities for the other classes as well and now we have a meta that self-balances like an ecosystem. An ecosystem like that can handle occasional imbalances of power better than what we currently have.

As long as it doesn't degrade into "oh I'm facing class X? Auto-lose. Or I'm facing class Y? Izi-auto-win."
But yeah! I very much agree that certain Classes could be better tailored to deal with certain playstyles. Right now I'm mostly thinking Sorcs have Negate to counter big ulti-dump groups, but that's about it for real counterplay IMO.

OBJnoob wrote: »

First example: Don't wardens have a passive making snares weaker against them? But why? If for some reason you don't have RaT then honestly the ONLY snare removal ability worth slotting is Swift Predator, which belongs to warden. They really don't need that passive.

Solution: Remove snare immunity from Race Against Time. Give it something else, small, as compensation. Remove the aforementioned passive from Wardens, strengthen it, and give it to Sorcs. Sorcs are 50%... Naw, screw it, 75% resistant to snares AND they last 25% as long. Now you have a class that can really kite, but is still countered by DoTs and gap closers, and it is perhaps more appropriate for them not to have a great burst heal.

I'd argue that Nightblades Phantasmal Escape is another snare removal worth slotting. Forward Momentum also sees a bit of use, but admittedly not much.

OBJnoob wrote: »

Make Crippling Grasp bypass snare immunity. Well, no, snare immunity is already more rare now that it isn't on RaT so here's a more unique idea. If you try to become immune to snares while effected by crippling Grasp you become "wounded" and can not sprint for 5 seconds. Why crippling Grasp? Because NBs are the assassin class and because the skill name is just super fitting.

How does this interact with all the people wearing Snow Treaders though?

OBJnoob wrote: »

Make necros the defile class. I don't play necros so for all I know they already are-- but if not, do it. They are apparently supposed to be a DoT class but I hear most people say that's dumb cuz they have no DoTs. Okay, that's fine, cuz we already have a DoT class. Most of their damage should be disease for high chance to proc minor defile, and one stam and one mag skill (an important one that they actually use,) should give major defile. This defile (just the major,) can't be purged. Because. Remove their +15% DoT damage and make it -15% DoT taken instead.

Okay I'm done. But stuff like that. Make things more thematic. More unique.

I agree that things could be more unique - with all the hybridzation these last several patches, Class indentities have degraded. A lot.
And since the meta, both PVE and PVP, has singled just a handful of sets and weapon combos.
If I wanted to be a MagBlade DPS instead of StamDK, well I'd replace the 5-6 DK abilities with Nightblade equivalents, and transfer my gear over. Bam, done. Similar rotation, similar output. Exact same gear, except for popping max mag instead of max stam enchants.

For PVP, a lot of the same setups also show up with every class. Stinging Slashes frontbar, Vateshran Ice Staff back, or Rallying Cry + Mara's Balm (not so much the latter any more...) Way of Fire, etc. It's all very formulaic.
Ah; and the ubiquitous Resolving Vigor. Mag, Stam, DK or Necro, whatever.

As for Necromancers... they're desperately in need of reworks, I feel. Their Class identity right now pretty much boils down to Blastbones, imo, and the occasional Goliath transform. +15% DOT damage hurray! On a Class that has... two DOTs? Big whoop.
(although shout-out to the Harmony+Avid Boneyard+Colossus Dark Convergence bombers. You shined so bright, you burnt out too fast)

And the idea of defiling, disease theme makes a lot of sense. In the interest of countering Purges, maybe something like "Accelerating Plague" dot, that refreshes duration and applies e.g. Major Defile or some Heal Absorption whenever you *attempt* to remove it. Never gets purged. If you're desperate to remove some other debuffs, you'll have to take the risk/hit, otherwise it forces you to hold off on purging for X amount of seconds.

Incidentally... this is what I wish the Plaguebreak set had always been.

i11ionward wrote: »

Woodenplank wrote: »

It's not a waste if you made your enemy cast Purge, is it? I mean they also "wasted" resources and GCD on removing the dot.

Yes, it's quite fair (I knew that someone would cite this situation as an example).
But if you "wasted" three GCDs on dots and the opponent "wasted" only one on purge, it's not so fair anymore, is it?

Counterpoint; everyone and their grandmother using Elemental Susceptibility from an Ice Staff, which adds five debuffs on one GCD and zero mana cost. Most purges in the game would actually need two casts to gaurantee getting rid of a single Elemental Susceptibility cast.

In my opinion this "tank meta" is working a bit different:

1. Heals have no cooldown - so you have to stun and time your burst to kill oponent.
2. You can archieve huge bursts of dmg - for example nightblade can ult+assasin will for 20-25k, then execute, dead.
3. To counter above, ppl stack resistances, and health. You need 35k health to survive this huge burst. And opponent can attack from invisibility, so timed block is impossible.
4. To counter above ppl try various proc sets, like way of fire + vate staff + masters DW, sometimes even relequen. All this gives crazy DPS, so you can actually kill a tank.
5. Going for max dps like above, makes you vulnerable to burst.

And we have a loop that never ends, which is actually quite good, because it works as rock-paper-scissors.

So why ppl go tanky? Nobody likes to be deleted.

If you want to swich meta towards less tankiness you have to reduce burst, and boost sustained damage. Increasing burst will only make ppl use more tanky builds.

I would argue and say we are not in a tank meta. In fact I think damage rn is very high. There are so many dots and procs going around. I think the real offender here is cross healing, which I do think needs to be toned down or reworked.

VinnyGambini wrote: »

So why ppl go tanky?

Because of high base and low scaling on offensive and healing skills. On top of previous problem the highest source of penetration comes from weapons, debuffs and procs which opens almost all slots to defensive sets without any competition

Just make healing scale from your highest max resource and damage scale from WD/SD

In my opinion Heavy Armor should have the negative Perk to reduce outgoing Damage to Players by x% per piece. To not affect PvE. And maybe a mitigation cap for PvP…

Come to No CP, a lot harder to deal ANY damage is built as a tank. Plays smoothly too.