Oakensoul DPS feedback from a tank

Auldwulfe · April 2023

BejaProphet wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I use Oakensoul on every toon I play now. I was heavily into PVE vets prior to moving over to PVP about two years ago and was very adept at two bar builds. I love the new ability to play a one bar build as it's just simpler and I can do the same amount of damage or even more especially in PVP. It's just easier and simpler plain and simple. It has shortened the learning curve for new players I'm sure of that, but in doing so they may just stay in PVP and enjoy it more rather than spending six months being cannon fodder.

Were I still PVEing I'd love Oakensoul there also I'm sure. In most vet situations I would have been able to just run ahead and lay waste to mobs etc long ago with a two bar build without a tank or healer present however I did not do that as it's rude(I have a tank and healer toons also). Really not a lot has changed, back then I had peeps running ahead and my tank was not needed until certain mobs that just required one and now is no different(although it was satisfying to see them die once in a while). I hear your complaint but can you honestly say people didn't run ahead and leave you or the healers with nothing to do prior to Oakensoul? I can't.

That was an isolated instance. And again, I recognize some benefits. The days of really bad DDs making the dungeon take forever is almost gone.

But again, the heart of my post is very modest. I’m simply reporting that heavy attack builds are now the overwhelming majority of what I see.

I can’t ever recall a time when one build swallowing up diversity was ever considered a good thing for an mmo.

You mean like the 2-bar, must use the animation cancelling build, we have now, with the very specific handful of sets that support just that?

Auldwulfe

BejaProphet · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I use Oakensoul on every toon I play now. I was heavily into PVE vets prior to moving over to PVP about two years ago and was very adept at two bar builds. I love the new ability to play a one bar build as it's just simpler and I can do the same amount of damage or even more especially in PVP. It's just easier and simpler plain and simple. It has shortened the learning curve for new players I'm sure of that, but in doing so they may just stay in PVP and enjoy it more rather than spending six months being cannon fodder.

Were I still PVEing I'd love Oakensoul there also I'm sure. In most vet situations I would have been able to just run ahead and lay waste to mobs etc long ago with a two bar build without a tank or healer present however I did not do that as it's rude(I have a tank and healer toons also). Really not a lot has changed, back then I had peeps running ahead and my tank was not needed until certain mobs that just required one and now is no different(although it was satisfying to see them die once in a while). I hear your complaint but can you honestly say people didn't run ahead and leave you or the healers with nothing to do prior to Oakensoul? I can't.

That was an isolated instance. And again, I recognize some benefits. The days of really bad DDs making the dungeon take forever is almost gone.

But again, the heart of my post is very modest. I’m simply reporting that heavy attack builds are now the overwhelming majority of what I see.

I can’t ever recall a time when one build swallowing up diversity was ever considered a good thing for an mmo.

You mean like the 2-bar, must use the animation cancelling build, we have now, with the very specific handful of sets that support just that?

Auldwulfe

Nope. I don’t mean that.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

BejaProphet wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I use Oakensoul on every toon I play now. I was heavily into PVE vets prior to moving over to PVP about two years ago and was very adept at two bar builds. I love the new ability to play a one bar build as it's just simpler and I can do the same amount of damage or even more especially in PVP. It's just easier and simpler plain and simple. It has shortened the learning curve for new players I'm sure of that, but in doing so they may just stay in PVP and enjoy it more rather than spending six months being cannon fodder.

Were I still PVEing I'd love Oakensoul there also I'm sure. In most vet situations I would have been able to just run ahead and lay waste to mobs etc long ago with a two bar build without a tank or healer present however I did not do that as it's rude(I have a tank and healer toons also). Really not a lot has changed, back then I had peeps running ahead and my tank was not needed until certain mobs that just required one and now is no different(although it was satisfying to see them die once in a while). I hear your complaint but can you honestly say people didn't run ahead and leave you or the healers with nothing to do prior to Oakensoul? I can't.

That was an isolated instance. And again, I recognize some benefits. The days of really bad DDs making the dungeon take forever is almost gone.

But again, the heart of my post is very modest. I’m simply reporting that heavy attack builds are now the overwhelming majority of what I see.

I can’t ever recall a time when one build swallowing up diversity was ever considered a good thing for an mmo.

You mean like the 2-bar, must use the animation cancelling build, we have now, with the very specific handful of sets that support just that?

Auldwulfe

Nope. I don’t mean that.

And yet, every other thread includes the term "proper build" referring to a 2 bar build, with specific skills, based on class.... and a handful of sets... that are "meta" ..... the whole "build diversity" ship, sailed, was attacked by pirates, and sunk, a LONG time ago......Half the reason that the HA builds are being attacked so hard is exactly because they challenge that status quo.... and people that made profit off of telling people exactly what build they had to have, or providing carries for people to get the gear for those exact builds, are upset that their profit margine is being threatened.

Auldwulfe

BejaProphet · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I use Oakensoul on every toon I play now. I was heavily into PVE vets prior to moving over to PVP about two years ago and was very adept at two bar builds. I love the new ability to play a one bar build as it's just simpler and I can do the same amount of damage or even more especially in PVP. It's just easier and simpler plain and simple. It has shortened the learning curve for new players I'm sure of that, but in doing so they may just stay in PVP and enjoy it more rather than spending six months being cannon fodder.

Were I still PVEing I'd love Oakensoul there also I'm sure. In most vet situations I would have been able to just run ahead and lay waste to mobs etc long ago with a two bar build without a tank or healer present however I did not do that as it's rude(I have a tank and healer toons also). Really not a lot has changed, back then I had peeps running ahead and my tank was not needed until certain mobs that just required one and now is no different(although it was satisfying to see them die once in a while). I hear your complaint but can you honestly say people didn't run ahead and leave you or the healers with nothing to do prior to Oakensoul? I can't.

That was an isolated instance. And again, I recognize some benefits. The days of really bad DDs making the dungeon take forever is almost gone.

But again, the heart of my post is very modest. I’m simply reporting that heavy attack builds are now the overwhelming majority of what I see.

I can’t ever recall a time when one build swallowing up diversity was ever considered a good thing for an mmo.

You mean like the 2-bar, must use the animation cancelling build, we have now, with the very specific handful of sets that support just that?

Auldwulfe

Nope. I don’t mean that.

And yet, every other thread includes the term "proper build" referring to a 2 bar build, with specific skills, based on class.... and a handful of sets... that are "meta" ..... the whole "build diversity" ship, sailed, was attacked by pirates, and sunk, a LONG time ago......Half the reason that the HA builds are being attacked so hard is exactly because they challenge that status quo.... and people that made profit off of telling people exactly what build they had to have, or providing carries for people to get the gear for those exact builds, are upset that their profit margine is being threatened.

Auldwulfe

And yet I’ve attacked them for none of that. I’ve done none of that. I simply have said they are becoming too universal to the point it seems unhealthy. You are bringing the fight from the other threads and laying it at my feet.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

BejaProphet wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I use Oakensoul on every toon I play now. I was heavily into PVE vets prior to moving over to PVP about two years ago and was very adept at two bar builds. I love the new ability to play a one bar build as it's just simpler and I can do the same amount of damage or even more especially in PVP. It's just easier and simpler plain and simple. It has shortened the learning curve for new players I'm sure of that, but in doing so they may just stay in PVP and enjoy it more rather than spending six months being cannon fodder.

Were I still PVEing I'd love Oakensoul there also I'm sure. In most vet situations I would have been able to just run ahead and lay waste to mobs etc long ago with a two bar build without a tank or healer present however I did not do that as it's rude(I have a tank and healer toons also). Really not a lot has changed, back then I had peeps running ahead and my tank was not needed until certain mobs that just required one and now is no different(although it was satisfying to see them die once in a while). I hear your complaint but can you honestly say people didn't run ahead and leave you or the healers with nothing to do prior to Oakensoul? I can't.

That was an isolated instance. And again, I recognize some benefits. The days of really bad DDs making the dungeon take forever is almost gone.

But again, the heart of my post is very modest. I’m simply reporting that heavy attack builds are now the overwhelming majority of what I see.

I can’t ever recall a time when one build swallowing up diversity was ever considered a good thing for an mmo.

You mean like the 2-bar, must use the animation cancelling build, we have now, with the very specific handful of sets that support just that?

Auldwulfe

Nope. I don’t mean that.

And yet, every other thread includes the term "proper build" referring to a 2 bar build, with specific skills, based on class.... and a handful of sets... that are "meta" ..... the whole "build diversity" ship, sailed, was attacked by pirates, and sunk, a LONG time ago......Half the reason that the HA builds are being attacked so hard is exactly because they challenge that status quo.... and people that made profit off of telling people exactly what build they had to have, or providing carries for people to get the gear for those exact builds, are upset that their profit margine is being threatened.

Auldwulfe

And yet I’ve attacked them for none of that. I’ve done none of that. I simply have said they are becoming too universal to the point it seems unhealthy. You are bringing the fight from the other threads and laying it at my feet.

Not so much meaning to do that, as much as trying to note that the game is in transition.... big time.
The old ways of playing are dead, between hybridization, and mythics.... the old system is gone.
The arcanist has a skill that gives you Major Brutality and Major Sorcery with 100% uptime, even if on a back bar.....
There is the mythic, coming, that blocks for you ... the one that minimizes light attacks to just filling ultimate... and boosts damage.

Then, there is the fact that with a little planning, I built a character that had solo killed it's first world boss before level 10 - mind you, I was wearing Slime Craw, Rattlecage, Treasure Seeker and because it made me laugh, nirnhoned weapons, at level 4.
I built a new character - and used my inn room in Alinor to transport there -- ran down to the craft area - swapped to my master crafter, and made one each of the level 1 items I needed to build the armor for the level 4 - simple, 5 light armor with divines, and 2 medium.... that was the long study -- 35 hours there --- jewelry one each in bloodthirsty - 10 hours, and weapons ...
my low level would pop on, fill as many research as I could, set my timer, and either swap to another character or go do something - timer went off, I popped on and hit the next researches.

Once done, I went to clockwork city, and opened my sticker book -- interesting thing, you reconstruct items at the level of the character doing the reconstruction.....

Yes, I did it as a joke ... only kept the character until level 48... but it was a terror in Battlegrounds.

If we could fix the issue with Lightning and restoration staves, and Sergeant's Mail, I think we would have 90% of the problem solved --- everyone is crying about oakensoul... but not about oakensoul with 2-handed weapons, or dual wield, or bow, or sword and shield, or fire staff, or Ice staff..... it's only the lightning and restoration staves that seem to be an issue.... the latter, not as complained about, as it doesn't have cleave...... how can it be a problem with only 2 of 8 different items, but be the core problem?

When 6 of those 8 listed weapon and ring combos are totally fine, it probably isn't a ring and weapon problem... it's probably some other item... and it appears to be Sergeant's Mail that is the issue.......

Auldwulfe

BejaProphet · April 2023

@Auldwulfe i think some of what you say has merit. Part of the reason for selective problems is that lightning staves transfer 100% heavy same into aoe damage.

But I agree, the problem may not be iskensoul itself but rather how it synergizes with other things. I’m all for a fix that leaves oakensoul untouched if it can be done.

Quethrosar · April 2023

So I 95% time play 2 bar normal style with nirn and wrath in training mode. This gets me through all normal dungeons and most world bosses. For a select few or vets I can switch to ha if I want. I have the meta ha, but I use a 2 bar ha more often. Seargent and reloquen. It does its job very well without feeling like easy mode. Can be a pain keeping buffs up. I did vet maelstrom and got flawless with the meta ha oakensoul month or so ago, but it felt not so satisfying because 1 bar.

AcadianPaladin · April 2023

I blame part of the growth of Oakenbuilds on the dumpster fire called Update 35. In my case, it trashed every single build I had. Rather than rage quitting, I went to all Oakenbuilds and have fallen back in love with the game. The problem is not that Oakansoul is so great, it is a derth of other enjoyable, effective builds. The nerf to templar sweeps is just one example of the widespread damage done by U35.

Another factor in favor of Oakenbuilds is that they eliminate the tedium of buff micromanagement. Longer duration buffs would help render other builds more worthwhile.

bachpain · April 2023

In traditional MMOs I would have to disagree with you whole heartedly because there is no build diversity to begin with. There is a level cap and and end game raid that has the nest gear locked in it that progressively gets harder with tiers and eventually replaced with a harder raid. There is no build diversity in traditional MMOs.

In ESO there is SUPPOSED to be build diversity but we all know there really isn't. Most DDs were running the same proc sets, mythics, and monster piece. Now there actually is some diversity! There are 2 schools of play that are very diverse. Personally I have played and got tired of HA builds because they are flat out BORING. Holding mouse 1 and clicking a skill here and there just isn't my cup of tea, but for many people it has become exactly what they needed. Now there is this new mythic that drops the NEED for weaving mostly. I see a lot more diversity in the future.

For better or for worse. Diversity is coming. I for one like the options available! Any time the vast majority of the population can succeed the better.

The nerf to empower was needed, on the other hand I don't like the heavy hit to storm master because like the nerf to maras balm ther just kicked all the casuals in the nuts who spent upgrade mats on these sets and now they are at the bottom of the barrel instead of on par with the rest of similar sets. That infuriates me because the casual player (who depends the most on these sets) are out of luck with the insane cost of upgrades on PC. They aren't going to grind for new sets and new mythics after shelling out cash for a new chapter. They are going to move on to a new game realizing they have flushed their time and energy down the toilet in a game that instead of balancing destroys sets.

jaws343 · April 2023

bachpain wrote: »

In traditional MMOs I would have to disagree with you whole heartedly because there is no build diversity to begin with. There is a level cap and and end game raid that has the nest gear locked in it that progressively gets harder with tiers and eventually replaced with a harder raid. There is no build diversity in traditional MMOs.

In ESO there is SUPPOSED to be build diversity but we all know there really isn't. Most DDs were running the same proc sets, mythics, and monster piece. Now there actually is some diversity! There are 2 schools of play that are very diverse. Personally I have played and got tired of HA builds because they are flat out BORING. Holding mouse 1 and clicking a skill here and there just isn't my cup of tea, but for many people it has become exactly what they needed. Now there is this new mythic that drops the NEED for weaving mostly. I see a lot more diversity in the future.

For better or for worse. Diversity is coming. I for one like the options available! Any time the vast majority of the population can succeed the better.

The nerf to empower was needed, on the other hand I don't like the heavy hit to storm master because like the nerf to maras balm ther just kicked all the casuals in the nuts who spent upgrade mats on these sets and now they are at the bottom of the barrel instead of on par with the rest of similar sets. That infuriates me because the casual player (who depends the most on these sets) are out of luck with the insane cost of upgrades on PC. They aren't going to grind for new sets and new mythics after shelling out cash for a new chapter. They are going to move on to a new game realizing they have flushed their time and energy down the toilet in a game that instead of balancing destroys sets.

No game, ever, will not have a meta. Meta is only the absolute best amount of damage you can eke out of a setup. That's it. Literally, diversity is impossible for a Meta.

So, when you talk about everyone wearing the same sets and using the same skills, you are talking about the Meta.

But, within 10-20% of the Meta is where there is a ton of diversity. A ton of non-Meta setups can hit in the 80-100K DPS range. That is your diversity. This weird thought that the Meta can ever be diverse is just not reality. There will only ever be one setup that will do the most damage for a class/build. And players will all still gravitate to it and the diverse builds that are still 10-20% behind will still be behind the Meta.

Anything else here is a choice. People who are chasing the meta are choosing not to be diverse in their builds. Diversity is here, and plenty of viable options exist at all levels of gameplay, it is just impossible for more than 1 setup to be Meta on a class. And it is impossible for more than 1 class to be Meta. That's just math.

BejaProphet · April 2023

@jaws343 much of what you said is truth. But here is the fallacy, on another level, in ESO especially, Meta for me may not be the mathematical META.

What do I mean? I can’t do what the big dogs can do. I’ve never seriously done end game play on anything but a tank. I don’t desire to. But I have often tinkered with DDs for fun on the side some. Best I’ve ever done is 95k. But that was probably a year or so ago. But as I spent countless hours on a test dummy, I discovered that surprisingly, some non meta tweaks on MY build gave ME higher parses. Mathematically this should not be. Meta is meta right? But what if I can’t successfully pull off the meta because I’m not skilled enough to do so even after countless hours of practice? Then we get the awkward situation of the mathematically best set up not being my personally most effective tactic available. This is why you can have both diversity and a mathematical meta. Because we aren’t all equally able to handle any given complexity. Perhaps a mag DK is meta, but for who knows why, the Stamplar rotation resonates with me and I personally parse highest with that. (FYI, I suck with stamplar.). There is your diversity of builds along side mathematical meta. ESO is full of people who can’t hit 130k on a build capable of 130k. And thus diversity is born. Perhaps not in trial guilds that’s only accept those who can pull off the meta. But diversity lives everywhere else and meta doesn’t kill it.
But now there is a no-skill build, that has NOT overtaken the mathematical meta, but it has overtaken what 90% of players can accomplish. In truth it’s probably a more comprehensive % than even that. And because it’s a no-skill one button build, it is always going to give its results irregardless of individual variance. Thus it is swallowing up diversity in a way that has never quite happened in ESO.

At least from this humble dungeon tank’s perspective.

Azphira · April 2023

bachpain wrote: »

The nerf to empower was needed, on the other hand I don't like the heavy hit to storm master because like the nerf to maras balm ther just kicked all the casuals in the nuts who spent upgrade mats on these sets and now they are at the bottom of the barrel instead of on par with the rest of similar sets. That infuriates me because the casual player (who depends the most on these sets) are out of luck with the insane cost of upgrades on PC. They aren't going to grind for new sets and new mythics after shelling out cash for a new chapter.

I wonder why trading crowns for gold is not frowned upon. *cough*