Do you disagree that it has become the predominant build in dungeons?

I run mages and archers. After the dumpster fire of U35, every single one of them wanted to rage quit the game. In desperation, I tried Oakensoul. And fell in love. Every single one of my mages and archers runs Oakensoul now. Only one of them is actually a heavy attack build. It is not the heavy attacks that drew me in (although being able to regen resources without interrupting a solid damage output is great); rather, it is the freedom of not micromanaging buffs that has returned the fun for me to ESO. The only thing I have to build in is a source of major breach (typically via caltrops, shalks or Night Mother's Gaze). And my healer mages still keep up major courage via SPC but that is easy. I also appreciate that Oakenbulds let me focus more on my foes, footwork, mechanics and situational awareness.

I don't go all in with the typical Oakensorc build because the purple monkey is too ugly and flappy is too obtrusive to enjoy. At least 90% of my play is solo PvE ranging up to clearing non-DLC WBs and non-DLC normal group dungeons.

I love Oakensorc and am glad to hear that the ring helps make the lives of tanks easier.

BejaProphet wrote: »

I want to share my observations but first let me share where this perspective is coming from. I random dungeon tank. That is 99% of my serious play time. My end game is carrying pugs through vet dlc dungeons. I do not play DD on any serious level. I have never gotten oakensoul on my account. I tank dungeon after dungeon.


Here is what I observe. One bar builds have slowly but surely become the norm. I mean to say that greater than 50% of my damage builders are doing nothing but heavy attacking with a lightning staff. Most of my groups look like ghost busters trying not to cross the streams. (I guess they are constantly bouncing around from boredom) I am not evaluating at this point, it is merely an observation.

What are my impressions of this? Well part of it is nice. As a pug tank, the days of groups with poor damage has almost vanished. They happen but they are rare.

On the other hand I am occasionally shocked by what they can do. I had a one bar build in veteran scalecaller use stacked speed buffs to run ahead and by the time I could catch the person the fights would basically be resolved. There would be a little clean up to do, but the large creatures were dealt with and most of the little ones. All from one person, before I could arrive, with creatures that can one shot. 🤔

Now my honest evaluation.

1. I applaud what ZOS is trying to do. There is a massive skill gap in ESO. Putting in a no skill build which enables low skill players to participate in harder content is an idea worth a try, for sure.

2. I think the current attempt has to be bad for long term health of the game. Stop and think about what has been done…. What % of the player base can use a two bar skill build and hit over 85k DPS? Very few. Shall we say 25% just for this discussion? It’s probably way less. But let’s say 25% for my point. That means that ZOS has placed an item in the game that is objectively the right item for 75% of the player base. For three out of four people if you aren’t using this ring you are wrong. Is that what you are meaning to do ZOS? But honestly it’s worse than that. Because the moment you choose to go oakensoul, you now need to go full oakensoul. And choose the very few sets that maximize that build. This can not be good for the game long term.

Do what you will with this feedback. But here is my advice. Yes, add a build that lets handicap and low skill players join harder content. I remain hopeful this can be done. But whatever no-skill build you place in the game, it’s performance should be at a level where EVERYONE should feel a little pressure to practice and move beyond that build. It’s damage should be at a place where 75% of the player base (if willing to put out effort) can move past the training wheel build. I’m NOT saying 75% of player base should actually out parse it. Let it meaningfully contrib I’m saying that it should be a given that if you will try hard and learn YOU could do better, whoever you are.

The one bar is setting a new floor for DPS like it or not. Did you mean for that new floor to above every person other than the most elite DD? (And no nudging the empower buff isn’t really addressing it.)

The new mythic will likely change that. Prior to that being introduced I would agree.

The bigger balance issue that I see is that there is a range, or a threshold if-you-will, where if a DD cannot exceed that with a 2 bar build (on a comparable build), then Oakensoul is the better option. In my opinion, that threshold is too high. The "nudge" to empower will space them apart a little more. Whether or not that was needed remains to be seen, but this is once that I applaud them for not taking their typical sledgehammer approach to balance.

BejaProphet wrote: »

@BaalMelqartu
The reason I felt the tank perspective is meaningful is because it means my post is not motivated from envy. I’m not feeling threatened. I don’t play DPS. I’m not mad that my hard earned skill is swallowed up by a new build. I just tank. And my envy free assessment is that this build is slowly erasing the diversity I see in dungeons.

You can decide for yourself if that is a good thing or not.

If this were the case, you could have given your "meaningful tank perspective" on any of the many other active threads on the topic.
I voiced my dissent and won't be posting further on this post. I have talked out all ends on all of the others and see no need to have the same discussions that lead the same arguments in yet another post.
I respect you as a person and a fellow gamer and acknowledge that your opinions are valid, I have just already addressed them many times over. At this point, I view each new post about this when there are already so many as just more posts spawned for more dissension.

@BaalMelqartu clearly your posture is a result of other threads and many heated debates.

For what it is worth, I’ve never read a single oaken soul thread. I don’t visit these forums often these days. I was tanking today and saw about 80% heavy attack builds…again. I thought it was worth mentioning what I was seeing. I’m not scheming beyond that.

30k on a non trial dummy is just fine. I’d be happy to take you into any 4 man content with that.

I haven’t perused oakensoul tanking at all. Perhaps it’s good but I haven’t tried it because I want lots of tools to crowd control as a tank, which needs two bars.

Thanks for the kind words also.

I've been running an oaken build lately.

I think it has a few hangups for me that keep me swapping back and forth between my normal build. Especially for group finder content, or content where there is a large chance I could be last man standing in a vet boss fight.

Mostly, the build has very little leeway for skill choices, and even when adding things like Matriarch or crit surge, the inability to fit a shield properly for me makes it very shaky in tighter situations. Especially if the healer or tank goes down.

I've put the build through Vet Maelstrom and came out with my highest score and fastest time ever. Even with a few deaths, it outscored my actual no death run from a few years ago.

However, I don't think I would risk the build in Vet Vateshran. The lack of a ranged interrupt makes it difficult to get used to for me, as I always run crushing on my solo build. And the lack of shields sounds like a nightmare in Vateshran.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I've been running an oaken build lately.

I think it has a few hangups for me that keep me swapping back and forth between my normal build. Especially for group finder content, or content where there is a large chance I could be last man standing in a vet boss fight.

Mostly, the build has very little leeway for skill choices, and even when adding things like Matriarch or crit surge, the inability to fit a shield properly for me makes it very shaky in tighter situations. Especially if the healer or tank goes down.

I've put the build through Vet Maelstrom and came out with my highest score and fastest time ever. Even with a few deaths, it outscored my actual no death run from a few years ago.

However, I don't think I would risk the build in Vet Vateshran. The lack of a ranged interrupt makes it difficult to get used to for me, as I always run crushing on my solo build. And the lack of shields sounds like a nightmare in Vateshran.

What happens if you drop both Daedric Prey and Unstable Familiar? The idea obviously is to run Crushing Shock/Wall/Matriarch/Hardened Ward/a major breach skill. I've been doing that fairly happily in tough fights. DPS isn't great, but it isn't great for me anyway. I'm still in my early days of understanding the mechanics of these builds; also, I'm still running Spider Cultist as my second set, as I was cautious ahead of a nerf that I expected would be worse than it so far has been.

I'll have to check that out. Could be a way to go for it. For my Maelstrom clear this morning, I added in Matriarch instead of Tormentor, and it felt a bit better, but still not as secure as a shield. I do think, at a certain point, dropping some of the one bar boosting skills kind of evens out with a two bar lighting front bar setup for heavy attack sustain here and there. So I wonder where that point is.

One change I am thinking about, especially next patch, is dropping Storm Master, and maybe even Sergeants. And running at least Order's Wrath, maybe Mother's Sorrow.

The overall DPS will be lower than the meta setup, but, the huge boost to crit chance will get far more healing from Crit Surge. Might make it feel a bit more secure.

I have a similar perspective as a healer, although I don't see as many HA builds as you (on PC EU).

My problem with HA builds is that there's really only one HA build, and upwards of 50% of players using that build can't possibly be good game design, no matter your stance on ease of access to difficult content.
It is entirely dependend on 2-3 certain sets and how these interact with the multiple HA ticks from lightning staves. I'd love to make, say, a 2H HA build, but they completely suck even with the overtuned 80% Empower buff.

Oakensoul itself is fine. It's a nice alternative I use for some but not all builds, as having only half your usual skills is a big drawback.

Being the sort of player that I am I probably shouldn't even be in this part of the forums, but reading this I thought I might offer another perspective.

I've been playing ESO since 2016. Coming from the single player titles I chose an Imperial Dragonknight for my character, because that was what was closest to my "Imperial, fighting mostly with sword and shield" characters from those. That choice, together with my complete inability in a computer game to run around, keep using different skills, and keep an eye on the surroundings at the same time quickly made me realize that the only role I could even try in group content was being the tank. Not a very good one, I guess, but solid, surely better than DPS or healer, because I could (mostly) afford to keep standing where I am, and concentrate on correct skill use (taunts, CC, buff/debuff skills) and situational awareness. That worked quite well so far.

In the last months I stumbled upon all those "Oakensoul" threads. And reading about "solid damage with minimal skill rotation and ranged heavy attacks" I decided to give it a try. Because, believe it or not, I would like to at least try and play a (tolerable) DD in group content for once. If only to ever be able to set foot in a (normal) trial. Something I'd never do as the tank, with the fate of 11 other people (or at least their fun) depending on my performance. Because I think a just-solid DD in a normal trial is no problem for the group, but when there is only one tank, they have to be really good at their craft.

No amount of "theory crafting" so far would have helped me significantly with the problem of only being able to manage 2 out of the 3 necessary things (positioning, skill rotation, situational awareness) at the same time. Nor did my tries to "get better". Now I started a character to see if Oakensoul HA thingy might be able to do just that. By taking away the necessity to aim and time lots of skills, so I can pay attention to my position and the situation while activating some skills when necessary and mostly holding left mouse key, depending on the lightning staff HA's tolerance for not-quite-exact aim. (I created a Templar, though, because I can't stand the Daedric pets.) I'm not finished levelling her, but I'm curious to see if it will work out in the end.

If this kind of build is really what it is advertised (or criticised) to be, you might see less build diversity in DLC dungeons (or trials), but you'll probably see one more DD that wasn't there before at all. Which, considering all the complaints I hear about not finding enough people to do such content with, would be a good thing, would it not?

And as for "nobody will play stuff to farm different sets anymore"... Well, if I couldn't play it so far, I also couldn't play it to farm the sets. Once I can play it, there are other incentives besides the sets, like achievements, style/furniture drops, dungeon layout and atmosphere, pledges, endeavours and whatnot. Not to mention (for people like me) "because now I can".

@LanteanPegasus

I totally get that perspective but….

People who struggle aren’t explaining why I see the vast majority using it. The damage output is so high, only a tiny portion of players can outperform it. Unless you can parse 100k, then a heavy attack build can outperform you.

If a heavy attack build was doing 50k on a trial dummy, that would be enough to let challenged people still meaningfully participate in ALL content. (I do not mean a team of all 50k would be able to earn all achievements). And it would also leave incentive to improve to more complicated builds.

Also something is missed when we compare this build with other builds. Yes, heavy can not do the damage possible in other builds. But take the best 2 bar build in the game and give it to every player. I mean something that has pulled off 130k. And 98%+ players will not only fail to hit 130k, they will also fail to hit 90k. They probably won’t hit 75k.

So for the vast vast majority of players, they personally will perform best on a one button build, if the damage out out of that build is so very high. That will kill diversity, period. You can decide if that is good or bad, but I have to believe it’s not what developers want.

BejaProphet wrote: »

@AcadianPaladin

You make a good point, sir. As I stated, I don’t even posses oakensoul. And I admit my thoughts are more specifically about oakensoul heavy attack builds Those are what I see as a tank and I’m not sure I’d even recognize a non heavy attack oakensoul if I saw it in my group.

The solution of bringing these builds into a better harmony might not require changing oakensoul at all, but rather how it synergies with other set ups.

A full year before Oakensoul even existed, I used a build with Sergeant's Mail as my weapons and jewelry, Slime Craw, and Sometimes Queen's Elegance, and others I used Mother's Embrace .... the second became more common than the first......

My skills were crit surge, camouflaged Hunter, which, with Queen's Elegance gave me the 40% that empower did then....
Slime Craw is Minor Berserk, and Crit Surge is Major Brutality and Major Sorcery with a 33 second uptime.... Camouflaged Hunter Passive is Major Savagery, and Major Prophecy with 100% uptime..... sadly, with the nerfs they kept doing to Sorc, they pushed me into the pets --- I needed the flappy to heal.....

Note, almost nothing has changed with Oakensoul.... except I LOSE the healing every second from Crit Surge (and yes, I was getting it every second, because of the pulses off of lighting staff was critting enough for that) -- in many ways, Oakensoul is more limiting, as without it, I can use a restoration staff back bar, identical skills, and when facing single boss monster, etc, just rely on constant healing from the passive on the staff to tank through ... I could survive things that kill me when I limit myself with Oakensoul.

I also used either Dreug King Slayer, or Rattlecage with Treasure Hunter.... along with Slime Craw and other weapon types....
The real changer is the combo of the 5 primary damage skills, Brutality, Sorcery, Savagery, Prophecy and Berserk..... whether you get them from armor or the ring, really doesn't matter much, as it is that combo that will give you a LOT of damage.
My nightblade using Rattlecage, right now, as weapons and Jewelry, Slime Craw, as medium, with Treasure Hunter filling light, and I am hammering almost everything in sight...... and I am not the best at weaving... it isn't important, I can spam one key and get plenty of damage from Flurry, alone....
And like SO VERY MANY other builds, I am using caltrops and Necrotic Orb from ..... and trust me, there are a whole lot of those blue balls floating around in other builds... its' becoming one of the most common DOTs I see, everywhere.....

Sadly, it's a selfish build as almost everything I do is self enhancement and does NOTHING for team-mates.... at least it doesn't have that filthy Oakensoul... LOL

The HA attacks with lightning staves is NOT a new style, the issue, now is that it has become clickbait, and a target for people that believe that dramatically screaming and abusing an item will let them get their way

In the end, that is the main issue -- some people used it as clickbait to get viewers, and others, who hated it from the start, decided to abuse it as much as they possibly could, in order to try and get it nerfed... they talked about it, here, and in other places..... and now, they think they are winning.... except that what they will get is either people finding the next way around the nerf... already happening..... or they'll leave, like a number of people I already know... who are sick of screaming people causing nerfs.... and they will end up in a game where the ONLY titles, or items, they can get will be from crates, or just bought..... the reward structure is already weak....

Imagine busting your self to get through a new dungeon, to get a token, that then unlocks the ability to buy the title you want....... If players keep getting chased away, that is going to be a hoped for end result......

The limits on what can be said in this forum do NOT apply in others... and trust me, those discussions are even more lively than here.

Auldwulfe

meantime im still trying to farm the ring pieces .. i hate gold digs ;(

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Auldwulfe what did you parse with it?

Before Oakensoul, I could hit 60K on a parse, and about 35K in combat --- more than enough to handle everything... and empower was much weaker ..... but the playstyle was the same.

The issue is actually in the two staves - lightning, and restoration. That's why during U35, they had to do a quick nerf on Restoration, because it was on path to become the meta DPS method....The issue is that, as a number of people here have shown, that the staff dips into Sergeant's Mail every second... so, twice per heavy attack, which means it hits those full stacks VERY quickly.

The nerfs they did won't change the core issue - not sure that they can, unless they either give the other staves a means of doing a channeled heavy attack, or reduce both lightning and restoration to a single hit..... it's the pulse damage that is the issue... at least with the complaints about HA builds.

I have messed about with Oakensoul..... and while it does have "some" advantages.... it has weaknesses. For one thing, Crit Surge gives you two of the most important buffs, AND it also gives you a steady healing that is on par with having a health regen of over 6000....... With oakensoul, I do get those two buffs, but I don't have the regen - which makes it harder to tank through some things..... I also can't swap to my restoration back bar to use the passives on those heavy attacks to boost the healing off the passive ... which helps a lot with large bosses.

Thing is, after U35, a lot of players that were upset by the widespread nerfs they got, while heavy attacks were raised, openly stated they were going to abuse it so badly, that it would get nerfed too.

And while it is getting something of a nerf... so far, it is easily worked around.... as they are concentrating on one set --- the nerf to empower, while being 12.5%, overall as going from 80 to 70 is 1/8th of the total, not 1/10th.... but that isn't terribly out of line. What I did like about it, was that it allowed people who, for whatever reason, could not get the DPS to earn the gear they needed, to do so. And that's a big thing - you need the DPS, to get the gear, to do the DPS..... and for some people, that had become an insurmountable wall.

I am strongly suggesting that if you are one of the people who are using the HA playstyle, that you grind as much as possible between now and 06/05/2023 - you will need the new gear to adjust

Auldwulfe

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I use Oakensoul on every toon I play now. I was heavily into PVE vets prior to moving over to PVP about two years ago and was very adept at two bar builds. I love the new ability to play a one bar build as it's just simpler and I can do the same amount of damage or even more especially in PVP. It's just easier and simpler plain and simple. It has shortened the learning curve for new players I'm sure of that, but in doing so they may just stay in PVP and enjoy it more rather than spending six months being cannon fodder.

Were I still PVEing I'd love Oakensoul there also I'm sure. In most vet situations I would have been able to just run ahead and lay waste to mobs etc long ago with a two bar build without a tank or healer present however I did not do that as it's rude(I have a tank and healer toons also). Really not a lot has changed, back then I had peeps running ahead and my tank was not needed until certain mobs that just required one and now is no different(although it was satisfying to see them die once in a while). I hear your complaint but can you honestly say people didn't run ahead and leave you or the healers with nothing to do prior to Oakensoul? I can't.

That was an isolated instance. And again, I recognize some benefits. The days of really bad DDs making the dungeon take forever is almost gone.

But again, the heart of my post is very modest. I’m simply reporting that heavy attack builds are now the overwhelming majority of what I see.

I can’t ever recall a time when one build swallowing up diversity was ever considered a good thing for an mmo.