Rallying Cry set is OP

MEBengalsFan2001 · March 2023

One way to improve rally is make the 5th piece only work when in a group of 4 or more.

DrNukenstein · March 2023

No, don't nerf. This is one of the best designed and most useful rewards for the worthy sets ever made. It's already limited in effectiveness by being light armor, magicka biased, having 2 lines of crit chance, and drastically losing value when someone else in your group runs it or when you run it with larger groups.

Instead of crying to nerf it, we should be crying for more PVP sets to be this useful and putting out PSAs to new pvp enthusiasts that they should use this set as a back bar while learning and playing in low MMR.

I mean, can anyone commenting on this thread name another recent PVP set that was as well received by the community as Rallying Cry?

TechMaybeHic · March 2023

I'd rather it not be nerfed or it anything, not by much; slightly reduce the crit resist at most. We have a lot of garbage stat sets and are over-run by proced ability replacements. Stats and actively playing should be rewarded and supported by more sets

OBJnoob · March 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

No, don't nerf. This is one of the best designed and most useful rewards for the worthy sets ever made. It's already limited in effectiveness by being light armor, magicka biased, having 2 lines of crit chance, and drastically losing value when someone else in your group runs it or when you run it with larger groups.

Instead of crying to nerf it, we should be crying for more PVP sets to be this useful and putting out PSAs to new pvp enthusiasts that they should use this set as a back bar while learning and playing in low MMR.

I mean, can anyone commenting on this thread name another recent PVP set that was as well received by the community as Rallying Cry?

See now I agree with this... But at the same time if it's as good as Powerful Assault AND Transmutation at the same time then there's definitely a problem.

I like some of the fixes suggested here but I have an even simpler one. Just make it a solo set that doesn't buff group members at all.

Well no, as soon as I said it I realized it wouldn't make any sense because the set is called Rallying Cry, but I do think that would fix it. It'd still be powerful, but would no longer be compared to other group buff sets.

Turtle_Bot · March 2023

Honestly RC is perfectly fine as it is and I say this as a sorc main whose class is directly hindered by the set.

It technically has a harder condition to proc (requires a critical heal) it than PA (cast any assault ability) or transmutation (heal anyone with any HoT) have while also having the limitation on it already with it being less effective the larger the group is which the other sets don't have. Those other sets also have no cooldown on their procs unlike RC which has a 15s cooldown.

Now if we had rallying cry being a 1 or 2 piece set with providing everything it currently does, then yes, I would argue that it probably needs slight tuning.
But the fact that the opportunity cost of using it is 5/14 slots (36% of your total gear slots) to get what a group of 4 gets using 10/56 slots (18% of their total gear slots) or a group of 12 gets by using 10/168 slots (6% of their total gear slots), its very fair considering its downsides that prevent it from scaling up with those larger groups.

For some context, if RC took only 1 slot (was a mythic) it would take only 7% of a solo players gear slots (still higher opportunity cost than a full group of 12 running both PA and transmutation), as a 2 piece (monster set) it would take up 14% of a solo players gear slots (roughly equal to a group of 6 running both PA and transmutation).

baselesschart · March 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Those other sets also have no cooldown on their procs unlike RC which has a 15s cooldown.

20 second duration though with a 15 second cool down. So you could have 100% uptime on RC

Turtle_Bot · March 2023

yes, that's why I didn't mention the 100% uptime as a unique feature of the other sets since all 3 sets share that ability, its just that those other sets have a guaranteed 100% uptime due to 0 cooldown where as RC has a chance to miss its timing (very, very unlikely, but still possible)

baselesschart · March 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

yes, that's why I didn't mention the 100% uptime as a unique feature of the other sets since all 3 sets share that ability, its just that those other sets have a guaranteed 100% uptime due to 0 cooldown where as RC has a chance to miss its timing (very, very unlikely, but still possible)

In actual usage you're right you probably wouldn't get 100% uptime consistently but I think you would get very close. Combined with the fact that it takes the best of both PA and Transmutation and actually is way better at providing crit resist than Transmutation, you could make a solid argument for it being overtuned.

OBJnoob · March 2023

Maybe it could give the caster only the spell damage and give the teammates only the crit resist? That would be interesting I think.

Turtle_Bot · March 2023

baselesschart wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

yes, that's why I didn't mention the 100% uptime as a unique feature of the other sets since all 3 sets share that ability, its just that those other sets have a guaranteed 100% uptime due to 0 cooldown where as RC has a chance to miss its timing (very, very unlikely, but still possible)

In actual usage you're right you probably wouldn't get 100% uptime consistently but I think you would get very close. Combined with the fact that it takes the best of both PA and Transmutation and actually is way better at providing crit resist than Transmutation, you could make a solid argument for it being overtuned.

I think the issue lies that the sets serve different playstyles.

PA and transmute are clearly meant for group play, while RC is clearly intended for solo/duo/some small scale.

yes, while solo/duo RC does provide more crit resist than transmution, but that isn't true for groups of 4+ due to the scaling of RC with group size. Hence why the opportunity cost I pointed out before is important to account for when discussing balance for a set like this and why the set is actually in a really good (and decently balanced) spot right now.

In a group of 3, RC provides about the same crit resist as transmutation (1650 - (83 * 3) = 1401) while providing less damage than PA (300 - (15 * 3) = 255) so in that sense, in a group of 3, you would technically have more stats running both of the other sets, and since they take up 10/42 slots (or 24% of the total gear slots of the group) it has a better opportunity cost to run both of the other sets, but the trade off is that with a small group, you may still lack another set and the trade off in damage is small enough to not drastically reduce its viability when that other set is factored in.

However getting into larger groups (6+/etc) that damage loss and lower crit resist becomes much more significant and the limitations of total gear slots is less hindering for group composition so the other 2 sets becomes objectively better to run for those larger groups, some of which will even have all 3 going at the same time since multiples of all 3 of the sets don't stack and the group has enough open slots to fit all 3 without losing out on anything.

And0ssus · March 2023

The problem is that it stacks on top of the other Sets.
Even If you are in a group of 3, you still can Stack the other 2 on top (or you Stack pa + rc + olo/spc for example).
Besides the fact that you have to effectivly heal for Transmutation + the way lower uptime.
So Trans doesn't have an Impact at all at the "first" big Hit(s).
Also for Trans and PA you have to be in Combat, which doesn't apply to RC.

RC just provides more than any other Buff Set since it gives a Solid amount of offensive + healpower (wpn/spell dmg) and for solo Players a high amount of crit resist.

Ether Buff other Sets to a Higher value or lower the max value of RC to Bring them in Line imo.

DrNukenstein · March 2023

What if they made two new named buffs for crit resist: "Minor and Major Resilience"

Then Rallying cry could apply minor courage and minor resilience

Powerful assault could apply Major courage

Transmutation could apply Major resilience

This would solve the problem of powerful support sets like these stacking with each other and other support sets without significantly harming the individual potency of the sets. Since rallying cry would no longer be an unnamed 300 damage bonus for the group, it could open up the possibility of it working in pve.

MEBengalsFan2001 · March 2023

Adjust all sets to provide minimum stats, minimum proc damage, minimum defensive capabilities, minimum buffing/debuffing, etc... make it so skill matters and not cheese.

Caribou77 · April 2023

The People Want Cheese.

It shall be served.

Egregious Cheese at the moment:

Rush of Agony
Dragonknight Class

Gotta pick your battles.

I think RC is a bit too stat dense, but is a lesser offender than other stuff.

Alchimiste1 · April 2023

With the amount of actually broken stuff in the game I really don't think there is anything wrong with rallying. Maras is still a better defense set even after nerfs. And there is so much dumb proc damage sets, and so many easy ways to get damage. I think rallying in a pure stat meta would be a bit loaded, but the fact is we aren't in a stat meta.