Rallying Cry set is OP

master_vanargand

Rallying Cry (Light)

• 2 – Adds 657 Critical Chance
• 3 – Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
• 4 – Adds 657 Critical Chance
• 5 – While Battle Spirit is active, critically healing yourself or an ally causes you and up to 11 other group members within 12 meters to gain 300 Weapon and Spell Damage, and 1650 Critical Resistance for 20 seconds. Each group member affected reduces the Weapon and Spell Damage by 15 and the Critical Resistance by 83. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

Due to Rallying Cry set, Critical Damage has become garbage again in PvP.
And soon the CP Critical Damage nerf of next patch is coming.
Let's do the calculation.

Critical Resistance rate 66 = 1%
Default Critical Resistance 1320 = 20%
Critical Resistance of Rallying Cry set = 25%
Default Critical Damage = 150%
Default Critical Damage - All Critical Resistance = 105% (non CP PvP Critical Damage).

Only + 5% Damage, what's this "Critical"?
Why make such an OP set?
Now PvP is full of immortal warriors.
PvP where players do not die is garbage.

divnyi

I agree that they went overboard with critresist on this set.

Impregnable armor is 1650 Critical Resistance only for yourself. Robes of Transmutation is 1400 Critical Resistance with no damage bonus.

Rallying cry is straight up better than two sets dedicated for that purpose, it means that the numbers on crit resist are too high.

jaws343

divnyi wrote: »

I agree that they went overboard with critresist on this set.

Impregnable armor is 1650 Critical Resistance only for yourself. Robes of Transmutation is 1400 Critical Resistance with no damage bonus.

Rallying cry is straight up better than two sets dedicated for that purpose, it means that the numbers on crit resist are too high.

But Rallying cry forces players to not group up to get the full power. It's a fair trade off. Play solo and get some decent defense and a bit of offense, or group up and lose a lot of the power the more you group.

Impreg has 100% uptime and can be used with groups. Transmutation is meant to work with groups and other players.

divnyi

jaws343 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I agree that they went overboard with critresist on this set.

Impregnable armor is 1650 Critical Resistance only for yourself. Robes of Transmutation is 1400 Critical Resistance with no damage bonus.

Rallying cry is straight up better than two sets dedicated for that purpose, it means that the numbers on crit resist are too high.

But Rallying cry forces players to not group up to get the full power. It's a fair trade off. Play solo and get some decent defense and a bit of offense, or group up and lose a lot of the power the more you group.

Impreg has 100% uptime and can be used with groups. Transmutation is meant to work with groups and other players.

You can still group if you reapply it when only several players of your party nearby. Need more than one set per group.
But yeah I like this thing about the set, but crit resist is way overboard. Also consider BGs.

jaws343

divnyi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I agree that they went overboard with critresist on this set.

Impregnable armor is 1650 Critical Resistance only for yourself. Robes of Transmutation is 1400 Critical Resistance with no damage bonus.

Rallying cry is straight up better than two sets dedicated for that purpose, it means that the numbers on crit resist are too high.

But Rallying cry forces players to not group up to get the full power. It's a fair trade off. Play solo and get some decent defense and a bit of offense, or group up and lose a lot of the power the more you group.

Impreg has 100% uptime and can be used with groups. Transmutation is meant to work with groups and other players.

You can still group if you reapply it when only several players of your party nearby. Need more than one set per group.
But yeah I like this thing about the set, but crit resist is way overboard. Also consider BGs.

Even in BGs, you still lose 249 crit, so it puts it toe to toe with Transmutation in crit resist at 1401, and you lose 45 spell/weapon damage to get to 255.

But, even then, I think that is still ok. Some sets are situationally stronger than others. That's fine. Rallying Cry is good in BGs or solo cyrodil. Transmutation is better for larger group PVP in cyrodil.

master_vanargand

jaws343 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I agree that they went overboard with critresist on this set.

Impregnable armor is 1650 Critical Resistance only for yourself. Robes of Transmutation is 1400 Critical Resistance with no damage bonus.

Rallying cry is straight up better than two sets dedicated for that purpose, it means that the numbers on crit resist are too high.

But Rallying cry forces players to not group up to get the full power. It's a fair trade off. Play solo and get some decent defense and a bit of offense, or group up and lose a lot of the power the more you group.

Impreg has 100% uptime and can be used with groups. Transmutation is meant to work with groups and other players.

You can still group if you reapply it when only several players of your party nearby. Need more than one set per group.
But yeah I like this thing about the set, but crit resist is way overboard. Also consider BGs.

Even in BGs, you still lose 249 crit, so it puts it toe to toe with Transmutation in crit resist at 1401, and you lose 45 spell/weapon damage to get to 255.

But, even then, I think that is still ok. Some sets are situationally stronger than others. That's fine. Rallying Cry is good in BGs or solo cyrodil. Transmutation is better for larger group PVP in cyrodil.

BGs are harder to die.
You can activate Rallying Cry on the backbar, which is much more powerful than it looks.
Also Duel is longer a joke.
Even if you fight for 30 minutes, it will not be end, and probably even if you fight for 1000 years, it will not end.
What is this PvP game? ESO's PvP like a hell.

ResidentContrarian

It's another contributor to unkillable builds, just like all the other overloaded sets. At this point it's baffling exactly how the team decides what is balanced.

Too much overtuned stuff in the game making power between builds a massive gulf that can't be crossed.

Amerises

Critically healing. Does overhealing crit and still Proc this? Of so, I can imagine it's easily 100% uptime. If you actually need to heal from damage and have it crit, there's a potential to have it down at the start of fights and that's a decent disadvantage.

PhoenixGrey

They should buff it further for solo play and nerf it for group play. There are too many carry sets and skills for group pvp anyway

Ominer

It's stupidly overpowered and needs a significant nerf. Theres too much damage mitigation and healing in the game right now. Classes can hit 18k crit burst heals self buffed. Now add on cross healing and 45% crit resist and it gets signifcantly worse. The current patch is one of the worst patches for a long time.

SimonThesis

Its not really OP, the range on it is very short and its a very unpredictable proc. It doesnt buff large groups much at all and small groups will be zerged down anyway.

master_vanargand

SimonThesis wrote: »

Its not really OP, the range on it is very short and its a very unpredictable proc. It doesnt buff large groups much at all and small groups will be zerged down anyway.

PvP includes BGs and Duel.
Don't just look at Cyrodiil to decide things.

StihlReign

Mara (finally) is almost reasonable, now do Rallying Cry.

Looooong overdue. This set makes PVP incredibly boring, just like Mara.

If this is intended, buff burst dmg.

MEBengalsFan2001

Mara + Rally Cry = really tanky player with some decent damage buff. Balance. Especially when on a DK when you add vigor, chains, breath, dragon leap, corrosive armor, etc... oh wait we want balance not imbalance.

I'm sorry but this game is far from balance. Every new expansion a set comes out either to strong or to weak. If the set is to weak it will be adjusted later on and become to strong for one full mod. Devs simply don't know how to balance anything from classes, skills, and gear.

It is why we see so many players using DK, NB and Warden now compared to a year ago when it was DK and Templars. All the players that enjoyed templar are now on DK, Warden or NB. I use to get templars kill regularly now I rarely get a templar skill. With this most recent update Necro and Templars are the worst classes in the game IMO. With Sorc only get slightly better due to the changes to their shields.

Devs are failing its player base as they seem so keen on buffing two classes per an update while making two classes worst per an update. Templar and Necro got nerf and DK and Sorc got a buff.

OBJnoob

Is rallying cry really that bad? Honest question. Regarding the other bonuses on it-- I personally never liked crit that much for PvP. I know some people do, and some people are really trying to stack crit damage right now, but surely half the specs/players are still just doing weapon damage right? So I mean... Rallying cry only mitigates crits, which is certainly less than half the damage being done to you. And on the flip side is grants 300 spell damage, or most likely less, which isn't that great.

I dunno. I feel like a small nerf might be in order but it's basically fine?

OBJnoob

I only have one character that uses it and that character definitely performs well with it in high level BGs. On the flip side I've dueled some Malacath DKs and got roasted. I think having a set that offers high crit resist but is light armor, offers no HP or armor is probably okay.

And while I'd listen to someone who wanted to expound on the thought that "it shouldn't be both offense and defense," I'd be waiting my turn to point out that Ancient Dragonguard came out a very long time ago, and Markyn Ring is also a thing. I just don't find Rallying Cry to be that big of an outlier. It's stat dense, sure, and it's one of the best sets. That doesn't mean it's broken. It offers 0 mitigation for non-crits and gives less than 300 damage.

MEBengalsFan2001

OBJnoob wrote: »

I only have one character that uses it and that character definitely performs well with it in high level BGs. On the flip side I've dueled some Malacath DKs and got roasted. I think having a set that offers high crit resist but is light armor, offers no HP or armor is probably okay.

And while I'd listen to someone who wanted to expound on the thought that "it shouldn't be both offense and defense," I'd be waiting my turn to point out that Ancient Dragonguard came out a very long time ago, and Markyn Ring is also a thing. I just don't find Rallying Cry to be that big of an outlier. It's stat dense, sure, and it's one of the best sets. That doesn't mean it's broken. It offers 0 mitigation for non-crits and gives less than 300 damage.

Rally Cry + Mara + Markyn. How balance are these three sets together?

OBJnoob

There's nothing wrong with Markyn at all, first off. The only reason I run it is because I don't have some of the better mythics. It's good. That is all.

I have nothing to say about Rallying Cry because I already said quite a bit and you didn't answer any of my questions.

Maras is obviously over performing and though I don't have much experience with it myself I agree with the people who say it should be nerfed.

All three together? Overly defensive in my opinion. Probably great in the hands of Xers that make mashed potatoes all day, but laughably inept against stiffer competition. Well no. Not inept. But unable to kill.

Sergykid

maybe slightly overturned but not op. The proc condition could be harshened or the numbers slightly lowered

OBJnoob

I wonder... And I doubt there's any way to get an answer... But I wonder how many PvPers have more than like 35% crit rating. I understand crit is kinda making a comeback but I don't really understand why. I've never been partial to it myself.

baselesschart

OBJnoob wrote: »

I wonder... And I doubt there's any way to get an answer... But I wonder how many PvPers have more than like 35% crit rating. I understand crit is kinda making a comeback but I don't really understand why. I've never been partial to it myself.

As people started running less impen over the last couple years it only make sense that the result is that more crit based builds start showing up to capitalize on that.

OBJnoob

Yes agreed but the prevalence of Rallying, the base impen given to everybody, and the emergence of other sets that give impen as a 2-3-4 piece bonus should kinda equal all that out, no?

Either way though I'm just saying I think impen is an acceptable form of defense and not OP because so much damage is non-crits. It's better than armor, blocking, having large HP, or Undeath for example because there is a trade-off. It's very strong against some people and almost useless against others.

baselesschart

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes agreed but the prevalence of Rallying, the base impen given to everybody, and the emergence of other sets that give impen as a 2-3-4 piece bonus should kinda equal all that out, no?

Either way though I'm just saying I think impen is an acceptable form of defense and not OP because so much damage is non-crits. It's better than armor, blocking, having large HP, or Undeath for example because there is a trade-off. It's very strong against some people and almost useless against others.

It only equals out what the old impen meta was when rallying cry is up which is theoretically 100% if you are always critting your heals each time the effect ends. Its quite a powerful buff with massive uptime and way too easy proc conditions.

OBJnoob

I can agree the buff is slightly too powerful. I don't think it needs to be lowered much though. -50 damage and -200 impen maybe?

The proc condition being easy (and it is,) doesn't seem that egregious to me. Some procs happen for free based off an opponents actions or your missing health (Maras, Pariah, etc,) some proc off taking a potion like Clever. Some happen off landing a heavy attack. Off doing fire damage. Off doing critical damage. Doing a martial attack. Are any of these harder? I don't think so.

VaranisArano

baselesschart wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I wonder... And I doubt there's any way to get an answer... But I wonder how many PvPers have more than like 35% crit rating. I understand crit is kinda making a comeback but I don't really understand why. I've never been partial to it myself.

As people started running less impen over the last couple years it only make sense that the result is that more crit based builds start showing up to capitalize on that.

And those builds are why I never swapped out of my old impen gear. ESO's balance is like high end fashion; old trends come back into style eventually while the current fad fades.


On a broader note, its interesting to see ZOS attempt to balance sets for solo and small-scalers while keeping the power creep for ball groups in check...only to run into problems with Battlegrounds and duels.

Maybe that's primarily because this is a defensive set, and less a problem with their scaling per person? Battlegrounds traditionally does best when fights are fast-paced and does poorly when everyone is tanky, as seen during the CP Battlegrounds test.

taugrim

OBJnoob wrote: »

Is rallying cry really that bad? Honest question.

I dunno. I feel like a small nerf might be in order but it's basically fine?

When a 5-pc set gives the 5-pc bonuses of two other 5-pc sets, it's not balanced.

The stat density on RC is crazy good.

As others have said, RC is like if Powerful Assault and Transmutation had a baby.

OBJnoob

Ah. Well, can't argue with that. It's almost like they intended it to be used by groups of like 8+, in which case it'd be kinda balanced. I admit that I use it for solo and Bg play, and I guess it is too strong.

React

Rallying cry really just needs the impen lowered to 990, and the group scaling harshly increased to be -33% per person in your group.

Solo = 990 CR/300 WD
Duo = 660 CR/200 WD
Trio = 330 CR/100WD
4+ = 0 bonuses

AdamLAD

React wrote: »

Rallying cry really just needs the impen lowered to 990, and the group scaling harshly increased to be -33% per person in your group.

Solo = 990 CR/300 WD
Duo = 660 CR/200 WD
Trio = 330 CR/100WD
4+ = 0 bonuses

Good idea, still too strong in a duel. Way to overloaded for a 5 piece for being solo

React

AdamLAD wrote: »

React wrote: »

Rallying cry really just needs the impen lowered to 990, and the group scaling harshly increased to be -33% per person in your group.

Solo = 990 CR/300 WD
Duo = 660 CR/200 WD
Trio = 330 CR/100WD
4+ = 0 bonuses

Good idea, still too strong in a duel. Way to overloaded for a 5 piece for being solo

Well, you shouldn't really be balancing sets around how they perform in a 1v1.

I disagree that if the stats & scaling were adjusted to these values, it'd still be "overloaded". The concept of the set is clearly to provide additional stat density to those willing to put themselves at a numbers disadvantage, I just think it accomplishes that poorly now as the scaling isn't harsh enough. The stat density this provides doesn't even come close the value a second player brings.

Turtle_Bot

React wrote: »

Rallying cry really just needs the impen lowered to 990, and the group scaling harshly increased to be -33% per person in your group.

Solo = 990 CR/300 WD
Duo = 660 CR/200 WD
Trio = 330 CR/100WD
4+ = 0 bonuses

With this kind of scaling, I'd keep the crit resist as is.

That is a huge and very quick drop off for the set at -33% per additional group member considering how servers like PC EU are now at the point where cyro is almost entirely large zergs, faction stacks and ball groups and as such small scale groups are becoming extremely rare or growing to become medium to large scale groups (6+) and solo is basically unheard of anymore outside of zerg surfing.

A good medium would be to have +1500 crit resist, +300 damage, reduces by 20% for each group member:
Solo = 1500/300
Duo = 1200/240
Trio = 900/180
Quad = 600/120
Group of 5 = 300/60
6+ = no bonus because at this point the group is large enough and have enough total armor slots across the group that building for group play with more group focused sets (transmutation/PA) over RC would provide more benefit.

This would also leave the set as an option for BGs but not have it be significantly stronger than other sets for that mode.