Things that break or counter stealth:

-Direct AOE damage
-Detect skills, they are considerably more reliable when you pop them before the nightblade cloaks and stay on them. They also give very potent buffs that will benefit your build more than one more button to push for damage
-Detect potions won't break stealth, but make it ineffective for the duration
-piercing mark (worth mentioning, but do not use this awful skill on a nightblade)
-CC
-direct delayed damage applied as a debuff such as purifying light or daedric curse
-standing near a friend that knows the things above
-Certain sets and procs that improve detection (sentry) or cc a ganker on impact (zoals). It's almost as if ZOS wants every player to be able to easily fit a stealth counter onto their build.
-*edit: structured entropy is possibly the hardest counter to stealth in the game. Especially since no cloak blade expecting to get a kill would ever run a purge. There just isn't room for it in the skills or the gear.

Things that break or counter templar or warden healing

-Outnumbering them 2:1 for every 20k health they have.

Things that break or counter dks obscene durability and damage

-out numbering them 3:1 for every 20k health they have

Things that counter Sorcerer mobility

-Expensive gap closers if they can reach
-Negate (worth mentioning)

Things that counter necromancers

-Have a cohesive build supported by class passives that make sense


As you can see cloak is as or more counterable than the gimmicks of any other class. Necromancers really only have one counter, and that is playing a better class but that is so broad that I would say that their gimmick of being an incomplete class is actually the only gimmick more punishable than the nightblades cloak. Note, this list is in a vacuum. It does not consider that templars have had their iconic spammable ruined, that dks have some mild sustain difficulties compared to other classes, or that sorcs have a cast time on their burst heal that no other class has to deal with (even though that's a great idea for all classes), or that necromancers can still potentially make a solid bomb just not like they used too

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Things that counter Sorcerer mobility

-Expensive gap closers if they can reach
-Negate (worth mentioning)

You mean those same "expensive" gap closers that have the exact same base cost as streak (3780), but with better range (22m to streaks 15m) and no ramping cost per cast?
What about CC for sorc mobility, that hard counters it too, but for some reason you left that out but included that as a "counter to stealth"

Those detect skills you mentioned that counter invis, they cost about 20%+ more per cast at base (5130) than invis costs (4050 reduces down to 3780 at max level, same cost as streak) to cast, not to mention that outside of a perfectly performing game, those skills are unreliable at best and downright useless at worst.

The only reliable stealth counter that you've mentioned in your list is detect pots, which aren't spammable like gap closers are to streak since it has a 15s uptime and a 45s cooldown.
- Direct AoE damage requires the NB either staying ontop of you (which means they're a bad/lazy player) or you already know where that NB is to land it on them. This also doesn't prevent them from recasting invis again as soon as they are revealed.
- Detect skills are buggy at best and only slotted for their passive effects on classes that need those passive bonuses.
- Piercing mark is a NB exclusive skill and barely worth slotting outside of running as a nb to specifically hunt gankers.
- CC, this is a generic counter to every class gimmick, not just stealth, but you left it out of every other class's counter section.....
- Delayed direct damage, see AoE direct damage above, this is even worse since you have to directly target the ability before the target goes into stealth and neither of these abilities prevent the target from going invis again straight away, these are also countered by mara's balm.
- rely on other players to carry you, sure, same can be said for every other class/gimmick too, see point about CC above.
- certain niche sets, sure force players to build entirely around countering stealth, that has no other utility for going up against everything else in the game.... that seems real healthy for the game /s
- Umm, what? nobody runs structured entropy, its a bad skill unless it's deliberately built around which makes it mediocre at best, the only class that runs either morph of entropy is necro and they run the other morph (degen) for access to major sorcery/brutality. This is also countered by mara's balm, just like every other sticky dot in the game.

Edit: apparently entropy is bugged and reveals invis players in PvP now, still not a great skill and considering this is very likely a bug and not an intended interaction and likely to be fixed sometime soon, I wouldn't be counting it as a reliable counter to stealth.

---

Here's a more accurate list:
Things that reliably break or counter stealth:

-Detect potions won't break stealth, but make it ineffective in a reasonable area around you for the duration, only a 33% uptime.
-CC
-grouping up with friends that use the above

Things that break or counter templar or warden healing

-Outnumbering them 2:1 for every 20k health they have.
-Having them outnumber you so you can bomb them into oblivion before they can attempt to cast a single heal
-CC
-grouping up with friends

Things that break or counter dks obscene durability and damage

-Out numbering them 3:1 for every 20k health they have
-Having them outnumber you so you can bomb them into oblivion before they can attempt to cast a single heal
-CC
-grouping up with friends

Things that counter Sorcerer mobility

-Gap closers
-Negate
-CC
-Lag
-Pulls (chains/leash)
-grouping up with friends that use the above

Things that counter necromancers

-Have a cohesive build supported by class passives that make sense
-Or just see DK/Plar/Den points above

---

I don't even think invisibility as a mechanic itself needs nerfing, all it needs is to have the skill have a ramping cost (+25%) per cast, that way it can be used a few times in a row to escape or gap close just like streak/mistform or can be woven in with other skills/dodge rolls the same as streak is to get even more casts, but cannot just be spammed indefinitely like it currently is.

It would still be very strong even with a ramping cost because it already grants:
- guaranteed crit on next attack (+50% minimum bonus damage, more likely +100%)
- 100% mitigation against projectiles/single target direct damage
- easy stun from flanking.

Streak has
- a stun
- a small amount of damage
- a teleport that often doesn't work or is delayed by 5 seconds because of a bug re-introduced since the server upgrades/U37.
and it has a heavy (+33%) ramping cost on it.

Considering invis grants as many direct benefits as streak while also proccing countless other passives/secondary effects of other abilities that streak does not, a 25% ramping cost per cast sounds extremely fair for what that skill provides considering what the skills it's always compared to provide.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

You mean those same "expensive" gap closers that have the exact same base cost as streak (3780), but with better range (22m to streaks 15m) and no ramping cost per cast?

In practice I don't find that most people chase persistently when I'm on sorc. Some do, but by the same token some are very good at staying on top of nightblades. I agree that it often takes two streaks in a row to be reasonably safe, then either dark deal or dodge roll on the bow bar for the speed. That said, most of the time I streak through people, even if my intention is to streak away. They have to deal with a stun before they can try to gap close.

Those detect skills you mentioned that counter invis, they cost about 20%+ more per cast at base (5130) than invis costs (4050 reduces down to 3780 at max level, same cost as streak) to cast

I do not find that a valid comparison, because Shadowy Disguise has a duration of 3s, whereas Camou Hunter lasts for 5s and Magelight lasts for 6s according to in-game tooltips. If you insist on making this comparison, then I think it's more accurate to compare cost per second. This is 855 for Magelight and 1260 for Shadowy Disguise, working from your numbers. Furthermore I find that I have to recast Cloak before the 3s are up, if I want to stay in cloak. I can fit in just one other skill inbetween cloaking, not two. On the other hand I can fit in 4 to 5 other skills inbetween casting Magelight. Perma-cloaking has a tremendous opportunity cost, compared to Magelight.

not to mention that outside of a perfectly performing game, those skills are unreliable at best and downright useless at worst.

You keep saying that. IMO that's a half-truth at best. From my POV the last revision to the detection skills did the trick. I find more people use them successfully against me and I successfully use them against others.

The only reliable stealth counter that you've mentioned in your list is detect pots, which aren't spammable like gap closers are to streak since it has a 15s uptime and a 45s cooldown.

I agree that, if your goal is to disengage, nightblade ultimately beats sorc. And why shouldn't it? Classes are different. Other classes have neither of these tools. I'm not sure how new Mist Form is panning out, but I would argue that vamp stealth and Mist Form are both watered down versions of Cloak and Streak. I also think sorc is easier to play. Streak is fantastically easy to use, because it works almost any time (e.g. outside a negate or CC) to immediate effect, while stunning everyone around (who isn't immune). Shadowy Disguise alone isn't simply better than Streak. It's different. It needs to be paired with RAT, or a bow and other snare removal skill, or with Shadow Image.

- Direct AoE damage requires the NB either staying ontop of you (which means they're a bad/lazy player) or you already know where that NB is to land it on them. This also doesn't prevent them from recasting invis again as soon as they are revealed.

No, but Magelight / Camou Hunter does.

- Detect skills are buggy at best and only slotted for their passive effects on classes that need those passive bonuses.

An outdated view in my opinion, not least because you play on PC EU, which just got new servers. Cyro lag is gone for now, as far as I can tell, or at least a lot better.

- Piercing mark is a NB exclusive skill and barely worth slotting outside of running as a nb to specifically hunt gankers.

Agreed. Overnerfed, but for good reason.

- Delayed direct damage, see AoE direct damage above, this is even worse since you have to directly target the ability before the target goes into stealth and neither of these abilities prevent the target from going invis again straight away, these are also countered by mara's balm.

For what it's worth I find Curse a pain in the butt on NB. I agree it doesn't often result in a kill, if I'm cloaking. It does contribute to putting me out of action for a while, though.

As to Mara, If you want to bring sets into it, then I don't know what to say. Mara is very good at filling in weaknesses on sorc too. Mainly, Sentry deserves a mention then. I don't know whether it currently works or is broken. Putting that aside, the 5 piece damage bonus is a bit down from a standard bonus, but then so it should be considering the set also does something else. This set has been devastating in the past, because it has no detection range limit. Use a half decent PC and crank up the view distance. I should know, because I was once completely neutered for a whole evening from someone wearing this set turning up at all the same Cyro hotspots that I did.

Edit: apparently entropy is bugged and reveals invis players in PvP now, still not a great skill and considering this is very likely a bug and not an intended interaction and likely to be fixed sometime soon, I wouldn't be counting it as a reliable counter to stealth.

ZOS fixed all the stealth issues at one point. A few patches later they changed invisibility to no longer suppress DOT damage. This had the effect that DOTs with a visual cue, such as the Entropy healing, give away the location of nightblades. Typical ZOS, fixing and breaking things at the same time with their spaghetti code. On the one hand I agree this is not to be relied upon. On the other hand I don't see this changing soon, because in ZOS' mind I think they are finished with stealth fixes for a while.

-Detect potions won't break stealth, but make it ineffective in a reasonable area around you for the duration, only a 33% uptime.

I know you probably don't want to dedicate resources to this, but just one duration enchant would up this to closer to 50% uptime. Detection potions are honestly the most devastating thing next to Sentry, because you don't know you're being detected.

I don't even think invisibility as a mechanic itself needs nerfing, all it needs is to have the skill have a ramping cost (+25%) per cast, that way it can be used a few times in a row to escape or gap close just like streak/mistform or can be woven in with other skills/dodge rolls the same as streak is to get even more casts, but cannot just be spammed indefinitely like it currently is.

And nerf PvEers collecting skyshards or playing Thieves' Guild? And nerf me, the perma-cloaking nightblade? @ZOS, for what it's worth, that will be when I quit the game.

@Turtle_Bot: The nightblades, like me, who invest in perma-cloak sustain, are not dangerous enemies to experienced players. The dangerous ones were the stamblades of the past and the medium armor hybrids of today. The cost of my Shadowy Disguise isn't the 3780 you list. My cost is at or below 3000. I wear light armor. I back bar Barrier to get my mag regen up for cloak sustain. I am a Breton. I have to use the Atro mundus and magicka regen food, due to the vagaries of the combat engine and how sustain works. Lots of sustain sets are not actually suitable for a perma-cloaking playstyle, e.g. a build that can keep cloaking as the combat engine switches you between "in combat" and "out of combat" due to the use of invisibility. Shacklebreaker, Amber Plasm, Wretched Vitality, all of those are no good to the truly perma-cloaking nightblade.

In other words, I make a whole bunch of sacrifices for perma-cloak sustain. All of those indirectly nerf my damage. You want me to wear Mara on top? Sure, that's one of my gear options, but my damage is complete rubbish due to that. My unbuffed Concealed tooltip is 6.8K in that case.

Sure, everyone strikes a different balance. My point is that the damage on a truly perma-cloak capable build, the kind of build that can hide among NPCs in an enemy keep, is low. Once you get your unbuffed Concealed tooltip up to 9K+ instead, which is where you should be as an effective dueller or ganker, you have already given up perma-cloaking.

Considering invis grants as many direct benefits as streak while also proccing countless other passives/secondary effects of other abilities that streak does not, a 25% ramping cost per cast sounds extremely fair for what that skill provides considering what the skills it's always compared to provide.

IMO it is false to compare the two skills, because they are different and the classes are different. For an example, see above. Streak is an immediate, very reactive get out of jail free card in a way Shadowy Disguise is not. Shadowy Disguise does not create distance and must be combined with speed and snare removal to approach the tactical effectiveness of Streak. Whenever I've played pure magsorc in the past, I was always suprised how much less stamina sustain the class needs, compared to magblade. That is down to Streak. On a nightblade you end up dodge rolling more.

i mean im a nightblade only fan and i never use invis. i like the class because of it's theme and general kit, not because of one ability

i prefer the dark cloak morph myself anyways :P

Heals_With_Orbs wrote: »

As stated, either remove invisibility from ESO or change nightblades so they don't just wipe people in PVP

This is PVP isn't it? or is it PVI? - Player vs Invisible? We aren't playing aliens vs predator are we?

I just don't understand why we have to constantly look over our shoulders, use spells like magelight that have a poor range or constantly guzzle expensive potions just because there's one player who's going to wipe 4 people at once inside a keep, or suddenly appear at a resource, etc etc etc.

This isnt what PVP should be about, it should be about P L A Y E R vs P L A Y E R - not fighting Arnies predator who has an unfair advantage

Sorry nightblade fans, but I think this class, although cool, is too overpowered

No doubt there will be a bunch of guys who say "leave ma' nightblade alone bro' - but I'm not interested in listening to that, don't even bother replying

Unless anyone has any better suggestions, something needs to be changed at least

Its bad enough trying to tackle these irritating wardens with stuns on heal, mara's balm cheese builds, tower huggers and players who seem to read a magazine while 20 people cant kill them

1. Remove Vampire's "Strike from the shadows" passive.
2. Nerf Nightblade healing (which is a bigger problem to me right now). Their burst heals are too strong.

I think that will balance the class more.

axi wrote: »

Luth7 wrote: »

This crafting potion could help with the problem:

Oh yeah that 15 seconds is so hard to survive on a class with one of the best evasivness, mobility and burst healing.

The potion should last 20 seconds. You already have to put yourself at great risk on console trying to spin the wheel of death to select your detect potion while a NB out of stealth is trying to burst you down.

Don't get me wrong but @DrNukenstein is completely right about the stealth. You can easily get them out of stealth.
I don't like nightblades that much cause they can be annoying but to be fair which class isn't? And taking away their invisibility would literally take away their identity... It's in their name Nightblade..... They hunt their prey down in the shadows...

Yes they can use their cloak to stealth away and heal but well guys we also have invis pots like the Alliance Health Draught.

And about their burst heal.... Yes it's strong but it's a single target heal unlike BoL, the Matriarch, Polar Wind or Blood Sacrifice.
And if you really want to start demanding nerfing burst heals I would start with coagulating blood which is way stronger than Healthy Offering.

Ohh and a little trick against nightblades, Dragonknights and Sorcerers ... Dark flare basically negates their health recovery and healing received for a short amount of time ... So it's easy to kill them while they have the debuff of that skill on them (unless they're wearing Mara's Balm of course and purge away everything).

Nightblades and stealth/invisibility are fine, the only thing about nightblade's invisibility/stealth which needs changing is being able to re-stealth immediately after failing to kill someone.

So the suggestion is basically more pve nerfs because pvp?

axi wrote: »

Luth7 wrote: »

This crafting potion could help with the problem:

Oh yeah that 15 seconds is so hard to survive on a class with one of the best evasivness, mobility and burst healing.

I agree, should buff the pot

ForzaRammer wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Luth7 wrote: »

This crafting potion could help with the problem:

Oh yeah that 15 seconds is so hard to survive on a class with one of the best evasivness, mobility and burst healing.

I agree, should buff the pot

The 15 second figure didn't come about by accident. It was 20s in the past and Immovability was 15s. From a historical perspective these potions have already been fine-tuned to strike a balance.

There's a few things you just don't talk about on the forums. Nightblade's invisibility is one of them...

By the way. Give DK's back their old Wings.

axi wrote: »

Luth7 wrote: »

This crafting potion could help with the problem:

Oh yeah that 15 seconds is so hard to survive on a class with one of the best evasivness, mobility and burst healing.

I didn't write it would solve the problem, i wrote it "could help with the problem". Some players don't seem to use potions or are not interested in crafting. I don't know if OP is one of them and it could make fights against nightblades less painful.
It was just a hint that this thing exists, not a "NB is totally fine, l2play" post.

axi wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

its a nightblade. stealth is its sorta its thematic archtype. No. Learn how to detect stealth better. there are potions, champion points and skills to counter stealth. Go slot in magelight

Sorc's archetype is mobility but streak still have a drawback.

Drawback of unblockable AoE stun with a damage on top of that ? Poor....