Could you start having a bit more respect for player's time and money?

Btoop · April 2023

Crown Crates are already predatory on their own, don't start locking items behind their purchase under the facade of being a bundle.

Don't abuse FOMO and use low drop rates to pressure people into buying overpriced event tickets. (Scrap of Minstel's Cloth)

50 fragments for a single reskined pet (Coral Haj Mota)? Having us run around the same two public dungeons for multiple days to stretch out content doesn't add value.

Stop taking advantage of players who lack experience by selling them things such as the cure for vampirism.

Overpriced items in general. No furnishing item should ever reach the price of actual content/DLC.

Listing Crown Crates again because they're just that predatory.

The crafting bag. ESO+ should add value to the game, not solve artificially created problems.

kargen27 · April 2023

None of this is forced on you or any other player. Nothing you mentioned actually helps you with the game. It is all cosmetics or time savers. Players get to decide for themselves to participate or not. The game is for adults and adults take responsibility for their own actions.

ZOS_Hadeostry · April 2023

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

MasterSpatula · April 2023

I get what you're saying and agree with most of it, OP. These practices are predatory and anyone who would engage in them has a level of ethics that would make one a pariah in a sane society.

But we do not live in a sane society.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Btoop · April 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

None of this is forced on you or any other player. Nothing you mentioned actually helps you with the game. It is all cosmetics or time savers. Players get to decide for themselves to participate or not. The game is for adults and adults take responsibility for their own actions.

Your response has so many flaws that have been covered so many times. It is surprising people still make arguements along these lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM8aNEXG3ts

Btoop · April 2023

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

Of course.

Thank you for adressing the criticism and tidying the thread away.

Btoop · April 2023

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I get what you're saying and agree with most of it, OP. These practices are predatory and anyone who would engage in them has a level of ethics that would make one a pariah in a sane society.

But we do not live in a sane society.

[snip]

I think you've really underestimated how much the game makes. [snip]

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

kargen27 · April 2023

Btoop wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

None of this is forced on you or any other player. Nothing you mentioned actually helps you with the game. It is all cosmetics or time savers. Players get to decide for themselves to participate or not. The game is for adults and adults take responsibility for their own actions.

Your response has so many flaws that have been covered so many times. It is surprising people still make arguements along these lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM8aNEXG3ts

Your video so correctly pointed out right off the top "I'm free to purchase or not" and also said that purchase had no impact on the game. Exactly what I said.

VaranisArano · April 2023

ZOS could.

Or they could continue charging 800 Crowns for a vampire/werewolf cure, which can also be obtained in-game for the low, low price of fast-traveling to an NPC in the Rift, Bangkorai, or Reaper's March's Mages Guild and 600 gold. So you're not even paying for the convenience of it.

I know which course ZOS has chosen.

Sometimes I wonder how many times they've sold those cures.

Elrond87 · April 2023

yep yep and more yep don't forget the outfit slots being locked behind the crown store at least add vouchers or event tickets to add outfit slots £10.99 per slot!

Tannus15 · April 2023

The level of frustration and disappointment with how much focus is on the cash shop vs what's going into the game is overwhelming.

If a new MMO came out which was a direct competitor to your game i would jump ship in a heart beat right now. You have systematically destroyed all sense of loyalty to your game and IP with this over the top exploitation of your player base.

The writing is on the wall, the next gen of MMO's are coming.

Start putting rewards in the game. Make playing the game rewarding.

beer781993 · April 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

Btoop wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

None of this is forced on you or any other player. Nothing you mentioned actually helps you with the game. It is all cosmetics or time savers. Players get to decide for themselves to participate or not. The game is for adults and adults take responsibility for their own actions.

Your response has so many flaws that have been covered so many times. It is surprising people still make arguements along these lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM8aNEXG3ts

Your video so correctly pointed out right off the top "I'm free to purchase or not" and also said that purchase had no impact on the game. Exactly what I said.

It's about the psychological manipulation. There is close to nothing to earn in this game. Everything cool has to be bought. Limited time offers for crazy prices making you feel that you miss out if you don't buy now. Don't know why you defend stuff like this.

If there was likewise stuff to earn for playing and for unlocking achievements it wouldn't be as shady as it is. That poly locked behind the crates introduces people that normally wouldn't buy crates to that gamble. Toxic positivity and defending every bad aspect of this game makes it even worse.

Amottica · April 2023

Btoop wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I get what you're saying and agree with most of it, OP. These practices are predatory and anyone who would engage in them has a level of ethics that would make one a pariah in a sane society.

But we do not live in a sane society.

[snip]

I think you've really underestimated how much the game makes. [snip]

@Btoop

I have not seen a report for Zenimax Online Studios to see what their cost is related to the revenue that is directly from content creation such as DLCs. Please share that interesting report from Zenimax detailing this.

The facts I see are that the subscription rate is the same as it was a decade ago for games I played and the same as it was for Zenimax yet inflation has driven costs up significantly during that time. Then we have the fact that players can spend significantly less buying the DLCs released in a year compared to paying a monthly subscription and even an annual subscription.

Most any of our employers who run a business for profit have increased the rates charged for selling their goods and services yet Zenimax has not increased the direct cost we have to pay to play the game and newly added content. The crown store is a choice. Being I have chosen to not buy anything from the crown store beyond the monthly stipend of crowns I receive for my ESO+ it is clear it is easy to choose not to buy crowns.

[edited to remove quote]

BardokRedSnow · April 2023

I’d just be happy to have crown crates giftable again

beer781993 · April 2023

Amottica wrote: »

Btoop wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I get what you're saying and agree with most of it, OP. These practices are predatory and anyone who would engage in them has a level of ethics that would make one a pariah in a sane society.

But we do not live in a sane society.

[snip]

I think you've really underestimated how much the game makes. [snip]

@Btoop

I have not seen a report for Zenimax Online Studios to see what their cost is related to the revenue that is directly from content creation such as DLCs. Please share that interesting report from Zenimax detailing this.

The facts I see are that the subscription rate is the same as it was a decade ago for games I played and the same as it was for Zenimax yet inflation has driven costs up significantly during that time. Then we have the fact that players can spend significantly less buying the DLCs released in a year compared to paying a monthly subscription and even an annual subscription.

Most any of our employers who run a business for profit have increased the rates charged for selling their goods and services yet Zenimax has not increased the direct cost we have to pay to play the game and newly added content. The crown store is a choice. Being I have chosen to not buy anything from the crown store beyond the monthly stipend of crowns I receive for my ESO+ it is clear it is easy to choose not to buy crowns.

Cool story but why not remove crates and put stuff for reasonable prices into the store? No gamble and you can buy what you want.

Look at the half assed content of this game. You can't tell me that the work they put in is in relation to the money it costs. Block bugged for 1 year and still not fixed. Dlcs are so small and barely bring anything new to the game. Most of the time I am done in under 10 hours while reading and listening to everything but paid over 60€.

Plus you want to tell me that they are so poor that they need to resort to bundles like this? [snip] They make millions with this. There was a time when the good stuff was available for crowns not for gems.

[snip]

[edited for baiting, bashing & re-quoting]

Caligamy_ESO · April 2023

"... does not engineer problems, so that they can sell you the solution." - that struck me when watching this.

https://youtu.be/gHzsRPmCaIE

Amottica · April 2023

beer781993 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Btoop wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I get what you're saying and agree with most of it, OP. These practices are predatory and anyone who would engage in them has a level of ethics that would make one a pariah in a sane society.

But we do not live in a sane society.

[snip]

I think you've really underestimated how much the game makes. [snip]

@Btoop

I have not seen a report for Zenimax Online Studios to see what their cost is related to the revenue that is directly from content creation such as DLCs. Please share that interesting report from Zenimax detailing this.

The facts I see are that the subscription rate is the same as it was a decade ago for games I played and the same as it was for Zenimax yet inflation has driven costs up significantly during that time. Then we have the fact that players can spend significantly less buying the DLCs released in a year compared to paying a monthly subscription and even an annual subscription.

Most any of our employers who run a business for profit have increased the rates charged for selling their goods and services yet Zenimax has not increased the direct cost we have to pay to play the game and newly added content. The crown store is a choice. Being I have chosen to not buy anything from the crown store beyond the monthly stipend of crowns I receive for my ESO+ it is clear it is easy to choose not to buy crowns.

Cool story but why not remove crates and put stuff for reasonable prices into the store? No gamble and you can buy what you want.

Look at the half assed content of this game. You can't tell me that the work they put in is in relation to the money it costs. Block bugged for 1 year and still not fixed. Dlcs are so small and barely bring anything new to the game. Most of the time I am done in under 10 hours while reading and listening to everything but paid over 60€.

Plus you want to tell me that they are so poor that they need to resort to bundles like this? To gambling? Psychological manipulation? They make millions with this. There was a time when the good stuff was available for crowns not for gems.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

@beer781993

I was replying to a comment about what the game makes from revenue directly linked to being able to play the game and the new content. They were not speaking to other revenue sources so aspects of other revenue sources were unimportant.

[edited to remove quote]

Elrender · April 2023

kargen27 wrote: »

None of this is forced on you or any other player. Nothing you mentioned actually helps you with the game. It is all cosmetics or time savers. Players get to decide for themselves to participate or not. The game is for adults and adults take responsibility for their own actions.

lol really? game is centered around ingame cosmetic purpchases and grind. 90% of mounts, motifs or cosmetics (like hairsyles) comes from crates or crownstore. Only 10% obtainable from ingame drop

Amottica · April 2023

Elrender wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

None of this is forced on you or any other player. Nothing you mentioned actually helps you with the game. It is all cosmetics or time savers. Players get to decide for themselves to participate or not. The game is for adults and adults take responsibility for their own actions.

lol really? game is centered around ingame cosmetic purpchases and grind. 90% of mounts, motifs or cosmetics (like hairsyles) comes from crates or crownstore. Only 10% obtainable from ingame drop

True but they are 100% correct that none of the crown store is forced upon us. None of it is required.

I say that as someone who doesn’t by crowns. I sub most of the time and have most of my crowns aquired from subbing. I could purchase almost to of the fanciest mounts from in game activities.

Vorkk8383 · April 2023

This event has upset me. I intended to buy crates, and I did (around 50 so far).

Issue one: You tell us that this polymorph has NOTHING to do with the crates, but it's locked in a bundle with crates. It is a pretty good deal for someone like me who would buy crates no matter what. What about people who didn't want crates or those who live in countries where crates are considered gambling and crates are illegal? I guess that they aren't getting this polymorph. Let's be honest; this was not about giving us a great deal. This was about selling more crates.

Issue two: This jester/dino costume is a remake or a costume. You do not allow people to earn enough tickets to obtain this item. You've left them with three choices: a) buy the pieces of scrap for an insane price (500k-1mil a piece, and you need ten of them!), b) buy tickets, c) not get it or wait a YEAR (because you stated that you would fix it next year). Nobody believes that you didn't know what you were doing. Some people are buying tickets to sell these scraps of cloth. Someone said they made 40 million gold simply by selling a few of these! Selling more tickets was what you intended to do. I had bought tickets before because I only returned to the game a few months ago. This time, I refuse to do so out of disgust.

There will be those who claim that none of this is mandatory. It's all cosmetic. Fine. I'll play! This is an event, and the player cannot earn enough tickets to buy the reward. This is an extremely slippery slope. It wasn't done by error. This was done to make ZOS more money. How will you feel when you need to make them money/spend in the store because you can't buy an item with gold and you're unable to farm enough resources (by design)?

I'm fine buying things in the store. I'm fine making you money, so the game keeps going. Some people cannot afford to do this, and watching you screw them over leaves a really sour taste in my mouth!

Necrotech_Master · April 2023

the coral haj mota only requires 50 fragments (25 from each dungeon), not sure where you got 80 from lol

this is technically in line with the other public dungeon collectibles (which technically started with the target dummy from the labyrinthian in greymoor)

Btoop · April 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the coral haj mota only requires 50 fragments (25 from each dungeon), not sure where you got 80 from lol

this is technically in line with the other public dungeon collectibles (which technically started with the target dummy from the labyrinthian in greymoor)

My mistake, I was thinking about the collectables from Blackwood which require 40 each.

Even 50 though, for a single pet is excessive, as was the 40 for Blackwood's dungeons.

Necrotech_Master · April 2023

Btoop wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the coral haj mota only requires 50 fragments (25 from each dungeon), not sure where you got 80 from lol

this is technically in line with the other public dungeon collectibles (which technically started with the target dummy from the labyrinthian in greymoor)

My mistake, I was thinking about the collectables from Blackwood which require 40 each.

Even 50 though, for a single pet is excessive, as was the 40 for Blackwood's dungeons.

pretty sure the blackwood ones were also 50 each, i still havent finished those yet either because the drop rate is not great (i never even finished one of the target dummies from the labyrinthian because that one also needed 50)

if the drop rate was better i certainly would spend more time farming in those public dungeons to finish them

Luke_Flamesword · April 2023

I don't get people who defend current system. I pay eso+, which in normal game should give access for whole or almost whole content but I still have to pay chapters (waiting a year for it or unsubbing is not a option for anyone who is commited to serious playing this game - you can avoid it only if you play casualy). And yet chapters are having lesser and lesser content every year (I'm still angry for lack of house in High Isle) and actual rewards of any kind are only small portion of crown store.

We pay for convience - merchant, banker, deconstruction assistant, armorer, armoring slots, outfiting slots (one per character, not account!!!), change name, character tokens and many more even with eso+.

We pay for best versions of any cosmetics - mounts (there are almost no unique mount in base game! compared to hundreds in crown store!), pets, costumes, appearance elements and many more.

We pay for houses in price of AAA game for one house, with lesser and lesser base games new houses. We can buy unique furniture, but not even a recipe - just one item separately and many of them are not earnable by playing game.

We have gambling crates when sometimes you have to buy more than 1000 of them to get radiant apex you want.

I pay eso+ and buy chapters only to have possibility of grind for some scraps, when real prizes are in crown store. Game pushes you really hard to subscription model but even then gives you f2p game transactions.

Game not rewards loyalty. You can pay many years for eso+, buy all chapters but you are still treated like f2p player. Crowns you get from eso+ gives you possibility to buy only really small friction of crown store items.

It's such a big problem, mostly because we are really lacking serious rewards in game compared to crown store items. Agressive monetization forces to limit real rewards in normal game or made artificial inconveniences just to solve them by crown store.

In healthy business model many of crown store atractions should have been part of eso+. You pay for sub, so you are premium player - you get cool mounts, some free crates, possibility to make all crown store furnitures (you only have to use own materials), free house for full year sub, loyalty discounts (longer sub=better prices on crown store), etc. Now we get [snip] statue or painting once 1,5 month which is kinda offending with all these crown store items.

As loyal, paying player I feel just awful and already made decision to not buy any crowns as long as it will look that way. If this will getting even worse which last months looks like - I probably will make hard decision to give up and abandon this game. And I don't think that I'm only person who thinks that, so please - rethink your strategy and look for FFXIV model, which gives them many happy players. This will only lead to degrading of players base and fall in future.

[edited for minor bashing]

Vorkk8383 · April 2023

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

I don't get people who defend current system. I pay eso+, which in normal game should give access for whole or almost whole content but I still have to pay chapters (waiting a year for it or unsubbing is not a option for anyone who is commited to serious playing this game - you can avoid it only if you play casualy). And yet chapters are having lesser and lesser content every year (I'm still angry for lack of house in High Isle) and actual rewards of any kind are only small portion of crown store.

We pay for convience - merchant, banker, deconstruction assistant, armorer, armoring slots, outfiting slots (one per character, not account!!!), change name, character tokens and many more even with eso+.

We pay for best versions of any cosmetics - mounts (there are almost no unique mount in base game! compared to hundreds in crown store!), pets, costumes, appearance elements and many more.

We pay for houses in price of AAA game for one house, with lesser and lesser base games new houses. We can buy unique furniture, but not even a recipe - just one item separately and many of them are not earnable by playing game.

We have gambling crates when sometimes you have to buy more than 1000 of them to get radiant apex you want.

I pay eso+ and buy chapters only to have possibility of grind for some scraps, when real prizes are in crown store. Game pushes you really hard to subscription model but even then gives you f2p game transactions.

Game not rewards loyalty. You can pay many years for eso+, buy all chapters but you are still treated like f2p player. Crowns you get from eso+ gives you possibility to buy only really small friction of crown store items.

It's such a big problem, mostly because we are really lacking serious rewards in game compared to crown store items. Agressive monetization forces to limit real rewards in normal game or made artificial inconveniences just to solve them by crown store.

In healthy business model many of crown store atractions should have been part of eso+. You pay for sub, so you are premium player - you get cool mounts, some free crates, possibility to make all crown store furnitures (you only have to use own materials), free house for full year sub, loyalty discounts (longer sub=better prices on crown store), etc. Now we get [snip] statue or painting once 1,5 month which is kinda offending with all these crown store items.

As loyal, paying player I feel just awful and already made decision to not buy any crowns as long as it will look that way. If this will getting even worse which last months looks like - I probably will make hard decision to give up and abandon this game. And I don't think that I'm only person who thinks that, so please - rethink your strategy and look for FFXIV model, which gives them many happy players. This will only lead to degrading of players base and fall in future.

They know that we pay for the bag. That is the one thing they will NEVER sell in the crown store because everyone and their moms would cancel their ESO+. The 1000 crowns per month are OK. It won't take you far unless you save them. [snip] We complain, but we buy it. I'm guilty of it too! The free items that we get are painting (I have way too many of those), a statue (see previous brackets) or a pet (see first bracket). Right now, I do regret coming back a few months ago. Necrom seems to be the only big release in the foreseeable future. Once you've done that content, you will have housing, waiting for them to add a new dungeon and getting your gambling fix with crates. I honestly hope to be wrong!

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

Northwold · April 2023

There is a thread going right now that directly addresses whether people ever go outside instead of playing ESO that I don't think is entirely a joke (I'd assumed it was until I read some of the posts).

Another, previous thread on these forums showed an alarming number of people running a completely jawdropping number of characters, suggesting they pretty much live their entire lives in ESO.

So, within the particular player subset that makes up this forum, it's perhaps not surprising that some people will say that you can get stuff "free" by playing the game longer and think that's a reasonable argument.

I mean, it isn't. It isn't even remotely reasonable. It's about as reasonable as shouting "it's not healthy for the game" whenever anyone suggests anything that might appeal to players who haven't spent 10 hours a day for the last century playing ESO and treating that as some sort of showstopper of a takedown.

But I don't think such points are coming from a position of malice. Just from a very, very unusual level of playtime / investment in the game that means some players have a different perception of what is enjoyable / reasonable monetisation.

Olauron · April 2023

Btoop wrote: »

No furnishing item should ever reach the price of actual content/DLC.

This June: hurry to get The High Isle for only 25k crowns