Elfbane and Fire Siege DoT Bug?

WuffyCerulei · March 2023

Been noticing that some people are having their fire, mainly coldfire ballista, siege DoTs last longer on me than the usual 3 ticks. People said in zone chat that these players are using Elfbane to lengthen the duration. Pretty sure Elfbane is only supposed to increase Ability durations, as stated in its text. I also understand sets aren't supposed to affect siege damage/duration/etc. @ZOS_Kevin Can you see if this is an intended thing for Elfbane to extend flame siege DoTs?

Ankael07 · March 2023

I hope we can get a fix for this in an incremental patch. I dont want to imagine how Cyrodiil will look like when everyone and their mother get Coldfire ballistas from event boxes.

Marcus684 · March 2023

I’m seeing it more and more. Probably 50% of the time now when I get hit with a fire siege I have to deal with 5 ticks instead of 3. I had gotten out of the habit of slotting a purge skill due to Plaguebreak but I’ve had to rethink that.

WuffyCerulei · March 2023

Marcus684 wrote: »

I’m seeing it more and more. Probably 50% of the time now when I get hit with a fire siege I have to deal with 5 ticks instead of 3. I had gotten out of the habit of slotting a purge skill due to Plaguebreak but I’ve had to rethink that.

Aye. There's a few individuals on DC in the campaign I'm in that will use the Coldfire+Elfbane combo, so I know to slap Purge on when I see the blue flames. With Plaguebreak, if you can step out of a group to purge it off ya, it'll be on a 20-sec CD for ya.

AndreNoir · March 2023

It's has always been like this and it is intended same as Scoria or VD procs on siege hits/kills

WuffyCerulei · March 2023

AndreNoir wrote: »

It's has always been like this and it is intended same as Scoria or VD procs on siege hits/kills

I don't think that's ever been the intention. Legit just tested Skoria and Burning Spellweave with a Fire ballista. Neither procced. Though the burning status effect that rarely procs could in turn proc Skoria.

MEBengalsFan2001 · March 2023

Deadly set increase siege DoT damage as well for siege equipment.

allan0n · March 2023

Please fix this giant annoyance

MachineGod · March 2023

It's not working at intended and has been fixed numerous times in the past by the developers. This is just a re-occuring bug. See below from wolfhunter patch for just *1* example of many. ElfBane, VD, CP, Skills etc have always been adjusted to not interact and with good reason.

WrathOfInnos · March 2023

MachineGod wrote: »

It's not working at intended and has been fixed numerous times in the past by the developers. This is just a re-occuring bug. See below from wolfhunter patch for just *1* example of many. ElfBane, VD, CP, Skills etc have always been adjusted to not interact and with good reason.

Elf Bane is not a proc set. That patch note means siege cannot activate sets like Valkyn Skoria.

I think it's clever that Elf Bane and Deadly Strikes affect siege. Siege does fall into the category of Fire damage over time. Both are intended as PVP sets, and IMO siege has been a little underpowered for years.

Not particularly opposed to siege becoming a larger flat value, but this seems like a valid use of sets until then.

MachineGod · March 2023

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Elf Bane is not a proc set. That patch note means siege cannot activate sets like Valkyn Skoria.

I think it's clever that Elf Bane and Deadly Strikes affect siege. Siege does fall into the category of Fire damage over time. Both are intended as PVP sets, and IMO siege has been a little underpowered for years.

Not particularly opposed to siege becoming a larger flat value, but this seems like a valid use of sets until then.

Holycannoli · March 2023

MachineGod wrote: »

It's not working at intended and has been fixed numerous times in the past by the developers. This is just a re-occuring bug. See below from wolfhunter patch for just *1* example of many. ElfBane, VD, CP, Skills etc have always been adjusted to not interact and with good reason.

Now we need a patch note that says "Item sets will no longer affect siege weapon damage"

Unless they come up with an item set designed specifically to do that.

MachineGod · March 2023

Holycannoli wrote: »

Now we need a patch note that says "Item sets will no longer affect siege weapon damage"

Unless they come up with an item set designed specifically to do that.

See my above post or this link for a much wider context:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7830521/#Comment_7830521

They have actively prevented sets over the entire course of the game from interacting with siege including any forms of damage increase including sets, passives, skills and CP. They don't need such a patch note because it was never intended from the start. Zenimax have not indicated in any way that the opposite of this is true.

WrathOfInnos · March 2023

MachineGod wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Elf Bane is not a proc set. That patch note means siege cannot activate sets like Valkyn Skoria.

I think it's clever that Elf Bane and Deadly Strikes affect siege. Siege does fall into the category of Fire damage over time. Both are intended as PVP sets, and IMO siege has been a little underpowered for years.

Not particularly opposed to siege becoming a larger flat value, but this seems like a valid use of sets until then.

Since you and other people seem insistent that sets etc should work with siege still even though I already provided 1 example of where sets are being disabled with use with them... Here is a few more then.

Where siege can no longer proc sets:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/430154/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-1-5-wolfhunter-update-19

Yep, that's the one mentioned above.

MachineGod wrote: »

All AoE based effects stopped from interacting with siege:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435633/pts-patch-notes-v4-2-0

That is describing a known issue with sets breaking the rule from 4.1.5 on an early PTS patch. Any updates to live patches will be captured below in 4.2.5.

MachineGod wrote: »

Item sets stopped from interacting while shooting siege:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441713/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-2-5

Just a bug fix correcting a loophole where siege could activate proc sets if used on destructible objects or other siege. Interestingly this is also when siege stopped critting, which may be a contributing factor in it's subsequent ineffectiveness.

MachineGod wrote: »

Siege stopped from being buffed by various passives:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294849/pc-mac-patch-notes-v2-6-4-update-12-one-tamriel

That one is interesting. Very old (2016) but does show some general intent. That could be an argument for Deadly Strikes not working. Hard to say anything definitive since both of the passives mentioned were later removed from the game. Could have been a bandaid until the intended fix.

MachineGod wrote: »

Where siege weapons that proc status effects can no longer trigger item sets:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/497974/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-2-5-dragonhold-update-24

This was a very general fix that prevented things like enchants and burning from circumventing the "procs can't proc procs" rule.

MachineGod wrote: »

Siege fixed to stop it benefitting from weapon passives:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/163301/patch-notes-v2-0-4

Another interesting one, but again very old (2015). This issue was again fixed in other ways, since Siege was later made unable to crit (unaffected by Axe or Dagger) and does not scale from Weapon/Spell damage (swords). I don't know if the penetration from Maces affects siege damage.

MachineGod wrote: »

Another set prevented from working with siege:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/513128/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-3-4-harrowstorm-update-25

Procs can't proc procs. And Olorime, seriously?

MachineGod wrote: »

A few passives, skills and sets fixed here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/227778/pc-mac-live-patch-notes-v2-2-4

Force Siphon, Expert Hunter, and Ice Furnace. I think we can all agree those fixes make sense. This is an interesting example because the same patch fixed a bug and allowed Emperor passives to increase siege damage as intended. Some passives are allowed to buff siege.

MachineGod wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno If there could also be some official stance on this please it would be welcomed as some players are denying this obvious bug. I have also reported this bug already within another thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628830/cyrodiils-pvps-many-bugs-a-comprehensive-list#latest

I think we'd all like some clarity. Calling it an "obvious bug" that PVP sets are doing exactly what their tooltip describes is a stretch.

MachineGod · March 2023

I don't see how a measurement of time has anything to do with fixes but I'll just ignore that. It's widely known there have been more and more instances of these bugs occuring the past few years with no fixed deployed. (For example sellistrix being able to proc from status effects proc'd by siege that was fixed years ago and is now broken again)

Addressing some of your moot points:

Penetration does not affect siege.

The issue where the emperor was fixed is because its the only one working and intended passive that boosts damage against structures and not players see the description below:
Tactician : Increases your damage done with Siege Weapons to Keeps and other Siege Weapons while in your campaign

Another example, why doesn't Burning spellweave proc on siege weapon damage? Lets compare the tooltips and wording:
Burning Spellweave - When you deal damage with a Flame Damage ability, you apply the Burning status effect to the enemy and increase your Weapon and Spell Damage by 490 for 8 seconds. These effects can occur once every 12 seconds.
Elf bane - (5 items) While in combat, increases the duration of your Flame Damage over Time abilities by 5 seconds. This effect does not work with beam or channeled effects.

Even if we don't match the above sets because "oh BSW is a proc set" let's look at some no proc sets that do not work with siege for example, Frostbite and Shield Breaker.

Siege is not an ability. It's as simple as that.

It is an obvious bug. To call it anything but is simply wrong. Again Zenimax themselves have a past proven track record that sets, CP's and skills are not meant to work with siege and once again the evidence to that they should not is far, greater than evidence they should. From my limited time to look for examples the above is what I could find. Believe me there are far more and in fact as a little test - try to find a single example of zenimax allowing a set to work with siege intentionally after the wolfhunter patch that stopped them.

WrathOfInnos · March 2023

MachineGod wrote: »

Penetration does not affect siege.

Good to know, so the change to Twin Blade and Blunt has no affect in the current game. They could revert that change and everything would function exactly the same. That is why patch notes from 7-8 years ago are not necessarily useful information.

MachineGod wrote: »

Even if we don't match the above sets because "oh BSW is a proc set" let's look at some no proc sets that do not work with siege for example, Frostbite and Shield Breaker.

Good point, you may have just uncovered a bug with frostbite and shield breaker. They do both have target conditions that could put them into the proc set category, but I'll agree there is no clear line between proc sets and non. They could fall into the arbitrary "proc" category and be excluded intentionally.

MachineGod wrote: »

Siege is not an ability. It's as simple as that.

Everything in this game is an ability. Block is an ability. Dodge, sprint, heavy attack, light attack, bash: all abilities. Using any synergy counts as an ability. Siege is almost certainly considered an ability.

MachineGod wrote: »

From my limited time to look for examples the above is what I could find. Believe me there are far more and in fact as a little test - try to find a single example of zenimax allowing a set to work with siege intentionally after the wolfhunter patch that stopped them.

I have 2 examples: Elf Bane and Deadly Strikes

MachineGod · March 2023

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Good point, you may have just uncovered a bug with frostbite and shield breaker. They do both have target conditions that could put them into the proc set category, but I'll agree there is no clear line between proc sets and non. They could fall into the arbitrary "proc" category and be excluded intentionally.

Those 2 examples were pulled from the "no proc" sets list from No-CP. As *2* examples only and there is a clear line. ZOS has stated it many times. Read up on it and educate.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Everything in this game is an ability. Block is an ability. Dodge, sprint, heavy attack, light attack, bash: all abilities. Using any synergy counts as an ability. Siege is almost certainly considered an ability.

It isn't I can tell you that right now. There are many sets and CP's (Again I'm not going to post lists again to try to answer strawman arguments) that don't work with them. Siege damage itself is also closer to oblivion damage in terms of how they function but not the same. For example they cannot be modified by % damage done modifiers.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I have 2 examples: Elf Bane and Deadly Strikes

Yes, let's list the 2 sets that are bugged. Very Droll. Again and re-read, I said intentionally. You listed 2 of the 3 sets that are currently bugged and work with siege out of the 100's of sets in game and still claim it should work again while this literally proves my point the opposite is more true by 99%. Very little to almost nothing works with siege and in the past many things have been fixed and prevented from occuring.

WrathOfInnos · March 2023

MachineGod wrote: »

Those 2 examples were pulled from the "no proc" sets list from No-CP. As *2* examples only and there is a clear line. ZOS has stated it many times. Read up on it and educate

Are you referring to the set list for the no proc campaign? I would take that with a grain of salt since it excludes unconditional stat sets like New Moon Acolyte and Order's Wrath. That list was never finished and only worsens confusion about what ZOS considers proc sets.

There may be some validity in stating that sets on the list are considered no-proc, but we cannot make the assumption that sets missing from the list are "proc sets".

Frostbite is a particularly interesting one because it requires a condition (applying chill and/or brittle to an enemy) and then grants a bonus based on that condition (increased damage done for 4s). I'm glad it made the list, but it's hard to see how this differs fundamentally from something like Spell Strategist with a condition (hit an enemy with a light attack) and bonus (increased damage against that target for 5s).

It does seem like Frostbite should increase the damage of Frost Lancers and Trebs. If it does not, this could be an oversight, and hopefully will get fixed.

MachineGod · March 2023

Just clarifying the point here for everyone else that sets Should not interact with siege. Any edge cases where they are should be treated and reported as bugs. The above poster is simply wrong. Please see my above posts for the overwherelming evidence and clear fixes zenimax themselves have done.

WrathOfInnos · March 2023

MachineGod wrote: »

Just clarifying the point here for everyone else that sets Should not interact with siege. Any edge cases where they are should be treated and reported as bugs. The above poster is simply wrong. Please see my above posts for the overwherelming evidence and clear fixes zenimax themselves have done.

I don't claim to know the answers. None of us have them. Just pointing out that there are 2 sides to this topic. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

MachineGod · March 2023

Once again just posting for clarity and a concise thread: Siege should not be interacting with CP's, sources of damage done, sets, skills etc. See my comments here and and here for the information provided by Zenimax Online themselves and finally my other thread for a list of bugs https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628830/cyrodiils-pvps-many-bugs-a-comprehensive-list#latest

Holycannoli · March 2023

MachineGod wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Now we need a patch note that says "Item sets will no longer affect siege weapon damage"

Unless they come up with an item set designed specifically to do that.

See my above post or this link for a much wider context:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7830521/#Comment_7830521

They have actively prevented sets over the entire course of the game from interacting with siege including any forms of damage increase including sets, passives, skills and CP. They don't need such a patch note because it was never intended from the start. Zenimax have not indicated in any way that the opposite of this is true.

I get what you mean but a patch note like what I said would be a bug fix note.

React · March 2023

Elf bane definitely should not extend the duration of siege, and yet for some reason it does. There are a number of players on PCNA who build extremely tanky setups which also incorporate elf bane, and they exist solely to set down coldfire ballistas in every engagement. You can't kill them, but they can fire their ballista at you point blank, which often deals upwards of 50k damage over the duration of it's extended DOT.

Ankael07 · March 2023

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MachineGod wrote: »

Just clarifying the point here for everyone else that sets Should not interact with siege. Any edge cases where they are should be treated and reported as bugs. The above poster is simply wrong. Please see my above posts for the overwherelming evidence and clear fixes zenimax themselves have done.

I don't claim to know the answers. None of us have them. Just pointing out that there are 2 sides to this topic. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Theres nothing to ''have the answer'' to. This isnt a question, its a bug report. Zenimax should adress this before the PVP event. There are no ''2 sides'' to this.

WrathOfInnos · March 2023

Ankael07 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MachineGod wrote: »

Just clarifying the point here for everyone else that sets Should not interact with siege. Any edge cases where they are should be treated and reported as bugs. The above poster is simply wrong. Please see my above posts for the overwherelming evidence and clear fixes zenimax themselves have done.

I don't claim to know the answers. None of us have them. Just pointing out that there are 2 sides to this topic. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Theres nothing to ''have the answer'' to. This isnt a question, its a bug report. Zenimax should adress this before the PVP event. There are no ''2 sides'' to this.

Well, there's the side that the devs have taken for the better part of a decade (with numerous opportunities to change), and then there's your side. Sounds like two. I wonder which is more likely to prevail.

I don't really care either way tbh. They can change it or leave it. It's a slightly interesting mechanic, but won't make or break anything. Nobody will override their decision. It just seems disingenuous to frame a change request as a bug report (especially since Wuffy did not post it as such in the OP). I'm done with this topic, we'll see where it lands.