[REQUEST] Rhajin spam should be more expensive

AnduinTryggva · February 2023

This is one of the most annoyances in entire ToT. It can be spammed just to annoy the opponent without much possibility to counter it. Even with black and blue deck it can congest the other player's hand just too easily. So I suggest to increase the amount for re-activating favoring Rhajin set to 4 gold. This could set in after third spam by a player. This increase could be reset to normal 3g if the opponent uses this patron once.

sharquez · February 2023

Maybe this story will make you feel better about it.

When a player drafts Rhajin I put on my try hard pants and make sure to make them regret it every time.

The fact that it exists is why I draft Hlaalu and Reach so often.

Last Raj game I played I had pinned them into 0 prestige, got 40 myself and had a patron victory. It was Glorious Justice

They were defeated utterly, and it was 100% their own fault for putting that antifun deck in the draft.

Learning how to play Rhajin (and drafting its counters) is the best way to counter it. Focus utterly on economy and getting the cards your opponent is passing up to frustrate you with the patron ability.

AnduinTryggva · February 2023

It's not about the deck itself. The issue is that it is too cheap to just to patron spam with this deck.

Some people developed a strategy that is the analogue to Orgnum but in a negative manner. They grad one or two power cards, play until they get a head start in power and then just spam Rhajin patron.

sharquez · February 2023

I mean thats how you play the deck if you get good buys at the beginning. It's made to break combos and interact with the opponents deck. It's anti fun and I never draft it anymore, but I can totally see how some would enjoy it.

I'm not saying it doesn't need adjustment, but you've got to do what YOU can do to counter it in the interim between now and the possible adjustments for it, which I wouldn't hold my breath for.

Probably wouldn't be so bad if there wasn't a penalty for concession which this is the only card game I've ever played to have one. You could just be like, "Nah I'm good not playing that" and both move on with your lives but no we've got a penalty timer, for no logical reason.

HalfDragoness · February 2023

sharquez wrote: »

Maybe this story will make you feel better about it.

When a player drafts Rhajin I put on my try hard pants and make sure to make them regret it every time.

The fact that it exists is why I draft Hlaalu and Reach so often.

Last Raj game I played I had pinned them into 0 prestige, got 40 myself and had a patron victory. It was Glorious Justice

They were defeated utterly, and it was 100% their own fault for putting that antifun deck in the draft.

Learning how to play Rhajin (and drafting its counters) is the best way to counter it. Focus utterly on economy and getting the cards your opponent is passing up to frustrate you with the patron ability.

I love this story! I've gotten screwed by the Rajin deck myself a few times so I usually pick the Reach King or Pellin to counter it by stocking up on power, killing their agents and destroying those bewilderment cards. The psijic's are a good shout too as you can use their scrying ability to put the bewilderment cards into your cooldown pile.

I also never pick Rajin against a human player. It doesn't feel good for me to win or loose because of this deck.

spartaxoxo · February 2023

I agree. It's too cheap.

WitchyKiki · February 2023

No, crow should have a limit as to how many cards it can draw. Otherwise, rahjiin is the only way I can stop yall crow/red eagle spammers with your endless combos.

DragonRacer · February 2023

Kinda wondering what decks people are "allowed" to play anymore in here?

People complain about Rhajiin.

Complain about Crow.

Complain about Druid King.

Complain about Orgnum.

Complain about Pelin power rush.

Complain about Red Eagle.

We just all gonna play using Psijiic and Hlaalu only until the end of time?

NeKryXe · February 2023

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

This is one of the most annoyances in entire ToT.

No, it's not one of the most annoyances in entire ToT, it might be one of the infinite annoyances in entire ToT. So, if they change this to make it easier for you, they'll also need to change everything else to make it easier for the others.

WitchyKiki · February 2023

DragonRacer wrote: »

Kinda wondering what decks people are "allowed" to play anymore in here?

People complain about Rhajiin.

Complain about Crow.

Complain about Druid King.

Complain about Orgnum.

Complain about Pelin power rush.

Complain about Red Eagle.

We just all gonna play using Psijiic and Hlaalu only until the end of time?

yES, two decks only from now on. REMOVE THE 4 DECKS PER GAME. ITS OP.

AnduinTryggva · February 2023

WitchyKiki wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

Kinda wondering what decks people are "allowed" to play anymore in here?

People complain about Rhajiin.

Complain about Crow.

Complain about Druid King.

Complain about Orgnum.

Complain about Pelin power rush.

Complain about Red Eagle.

We just all gonna play using Psijiic and Hlaalu only until the end of time?

yES, two decks only from now on. REMOVE THE 4 DECKS PER GAME. ITS OP.

That is pretty polemic.

If you care to read actually what I have written you'll see that I did not request to remove it or to alter its overall purpose. It is to tweak it such that spamming a patron comes at a cost. It is just for rebalancing some of its uses that were clearly not foreseen by the developers.

They've done it for Orgnum and since this Orgnum spam is still a possible way of winning but much harder now.

WitchyKiki · February 2023

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

Kinda wondering what decks people are "allowed" to play anymore in here?

People complain about Rhajiin.

Complain about Crow.

Complain about Druid King.

Complain about Orgnum.

Complain about Pelin power rush.

Complain about Red Eagle.

We just all gonna play using Psijiic and Hlaalu only until the end of time?

yES, two decks only from now on. REMOVE THE 4 DECKS PER GAME. ITS OP.

That is pretty polemic.

If you care to read actually what I have written you'll see that I did not request to remove it or to alter its overall purpose. It is to tweak it such that spamming a patron comes at a cost. It is just for rebalancing some of its uses that were clearly not foreseen by the developers.

They've done it for Orgnum and since this Orgnum spam is still a possible way of winning but much harder now.

Rahjiin has a purpose, to destroy combos. Making it cost more is too punishing for the players that have not been able to play tavern catch up. Its functioning as it was intended, some people just see Rahjiin and it pushes on their emotional triggers. If we are going to make it more expensive, then lets nerf crow cards, make red eagle more expensive to use, and all the other patrons, on that same vein, make hlaalu and crow give lesser rewards.

AnduinTryggva · February 2023

WitchyKiki wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

Kinda wondering what decks people are "allowed" to play anymore in here?

People complain about Rhajiin.

Complain about Crow.

Complain about Druid King.

Complain about Orgnum.

Complain about Pelin power rush.

Complain about Red Eagle.

We just all gonna play using Psijiic and Hlaalu only until the end of time?

yES, two decks only from now on. REMOVE THE 4 DECKS PER GAME. ITS OP.

That is pretty polemic.

If you care to read actually what I have written you'll see that I did not request to remove it or to alter its overall purpose. It is to tweak it such that spamming a patron comes at a cost. It is just for rebalancing some of its uses that were clearly not foreseen by the developers.

They've done it for Orgnum and since this Orgnum spam is still a possible way of winning but much harder now.

Rahjiin has a purpose, to destroy combos. Making it cost more is too punishing for the players that have not been able to play tavern catch up. Its functioning as it was intended, some people just see Rahjiin and it pushes on their emotional triggers. If we are going to make it more expensive, then lets nerf crow cards, make red eagle more expensive to use, and all the other patrons, on that same vein, make hlaalu and crow give lesser rewards.

I agree with you to some extend. It should retain its function but it should not incite for excessive use. So my principal proposition is to make it expensive when using too often in a row. It is about making people refrain from excessive Rhajin spamming.

WitchyKiki · February 2023

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

Kinda wondering what decks people are "allowed" to play anymore in here?

People complain about Rhajiin.

Complain about Crow.

Complain about Druid King.

Complain about Orgnum.

Complain about Pelin power rush.

Complain about Red Eagle.

We just all gonna play using Psijiic and Hlaalu only until the end of time?

yES, two decks only from now on. REMOVE THE 4 DECKS PER GAME. ITS OP.

That is pretty polemic.

If you care to read actually what I have written you'll see that I did not request to remove it or to alter its overall purpose. It is to tweak it such that spamming a patron comes at a cost. It is just for rebalancing some of its uses that were clearly not foreseen by the developers.

They've done it for Orgnum and since this Orgnum spam is still a possible way of winning but much harder now.

Rahjiin has a purpose, to destroy combos. Making it cost more is too punishing for the players that have not been able to play tavern catch up. Its functioning as it was intended, some people just see Rahjiin and it pushes on their emotional triggers. If we are going to make it more expensive, then lets nerf crow cards, make red eagle more expensive to use, and all the other patrons, on that same vein, make hlaalu and crow give lesser rewards.

I agree with you to some extend. It should retain its function but it should not incite for excessive use. So my principal proposition is to make it expensive when using too often in a row. It is about making people refrain from excessive Rhajin spamming.

But.. spamming... is what... breaks... combos.

spartaxoxo · February 2023

Spamming gives someone permanent control over an opponents deck, it should be more expensive. It should not be cheap, easy, and permanent. One of those needs to go.

phantasmalD · February 2023

Rajhin spam is a losing strategy on its own. It's 3 gold do nothing. You forego using any of the better patrons or the chance to build your engine. And it takes just 2 gold to undo the damage (writ of coin).

The strong part of Rajhin is the ability to prevent and destroy prestige, and the huge amount of gold it can generate with 1-2 combos.

Out of like ~200 games I've only seen the patron be relevant once. Opponent was at 5 gold and there was an Armory available, they used Red Eagle for a card draw and drew the curse instead of a gold. And that wasn't Rajhin spam, just a one-off activation.

Rajhin is prob the weakest deck, it has no prestige/power generation on its own and can only stall. It needs to be paired up with crow to really shine. And pretty much all decks but pelin and druid king can counter it.

Tensar · February 2023

I don't have rahjin unlocked and for now this is the patron I prefere.

He really is fun to play. I can't see the crows anymore they are OP...

spartaxoxo · February 2023

phantasmalD wrote: »

Rajhin spam is a losing strategy on its own. It's 3 gold do nothing. You forego using any of the better patrons or the chance to build your engine. And it takes just 2 gold to undo the damage (writ of coin).

Because it's cheap and Rahjiin has cards like Grand Larceny, you can pickup a card for you own deck and spam (ETA in the same turn). The value of bewilderment isn't that it gives 0 coin, it's that it permanently breaks the ability to combo. Combos are how almost every deck wins games. It makes it extremely difficult for an opponent to win even if you don't have the deck to win a timely fashion.

WitchyKiki · February 2023

People who don't like Rahjin because of its ability to create bewilderments usually just wanna freely spam their crow/red without interruption and win games that way. Rahjin isn't going away anytime soon unless theres a new way to disrupt combos.

phantasmalD · February 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Rajhin spam is a losing strategy on its own. It's 3 gold do nothing. You forego using any of the better patrons or the chance to build your engine. And it takes just 2 gold to undo the damage (writ of coin).

Because it's cheap and Rahjiin has cards like Grand Larceny, you can pickup a card for you own deck and spam (ETA in the same turn). The value of bewilderment isn't that it gives 0 coin, it's that it permanently breaks the ability to combo. Combos are how almost every deck wins games. It makes it extremely difficult for an opponent to win even if you don't have the deck to win a timely fashion.

Only Rajhin, Crow and Druid King really relies on combos, most of the other decks only go up to combo 2. If you have a dedicated deck then 1 or 2 dud card won't break any combos. The 0 value does hurt tho.
Like Armory is not a combo card, so nothing to break, but if you don't draw it then you get nothing out of it.

Crow players will draft Red Eagle + the dud spam can't keep up with the massive draws, so Rajhin pretty much only counters the Druid King deck that tries to win with combos (instead of agent spam). And itself.

It takes a while for your opponent to get to the point where they can build a deck and use Rajhin on the same turn, it's not like you start off with having 8+ gold to spend per turn. Baring an unfortunate tavern RNG, you should have plenty of time to prepare and build an engine. You should know what your opponent is trying to do based on the draft phase (who bought what) and on their card purchases.

spartaxoxo · February 2023

phantasmalD wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Rajhin spam is a losing strategy on its own. It's 3 gold do nothing. You forego using any of the better patrons or the chance to build your engine. And it takes just 2 gold to undo the damage (writ of coin).

Because it's cheap and Rahjiin has cards like Grand Larceny, you can pickup a card for you own deck and spam (ETA in the same turn). The value of bewilderment isn't that it gives 0 coin, it's that it permanently breaks the ability to combo. Combos are how almost every deck wins games. It makes it extremely difficult for an opponent to win even if you don't have the deck to win a timely fashion.

Only Rajhin, Crow and Druid King really relies on combos, most of the other decks only go up to combo 2. If you have a dedicated deck then 1 or 2 dud card won't break any combos. The 0 value does hurt tho.
Like Armory is not a combo card, so nothing to break, but if you don't draw it then you get nothing out of it.

When someone spams it, you get a lot of zero value cards.

While some are less dependent specifically on combo effects, even they need you to draw more color cards than cards that don't have a color because those cards generate zero power and take the place of something that either could have done that or at least setup you up for a better position to generate to generate power in another turn (e.g. Ansei could have pushed a card to the top of your deck).

Pelin for example really only works as a "rush" deck, if you can slow down the power generation of Pelin then it's not going to add a lot of anything else to your deck and your ability to win decreases. Beyond that some of Pelin cards do depend on comboing to be good at mid to late game such as Legion's arrival.

rbfrgsp · February 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Pelin for example really only works as a "rush" deck, if you can slow down the power generation of Pelin then it's not going to add a lot of anything else to your deck and your ability to win decreases.

The biggest value of Pellin is its tanking and Agent-management abilities via its patron. Most people overlook these bits.

phantasmalD · February 2023

Curses go to your discard first, so they won't do anything until they get shuffled back into your deck. In a massive deck they might never even resurface.

Hunding is one of the hardest counter to Rahjin as you can infinitely ensure that the curses never leave your discard. (Only thing that counters it harder is Orgnum.)
Green decks should never depend on top-deck since you can continuously set up a good turns.

Aaaaaaand [Legion's arrival] pretty much the only Pelin card that needs combo for power. Also, an aggro deck is never supposed to be good mid-to-late game. A rush deck running out of steam and breaking down late game is the expected behaviour.

AnduinTryggva · February 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Rajhin spam is a losing strategy on its own. It's 3 gold do nothing. You forego using any of the better patrons or the chance to build your engine. And it takes just 2 gold to undo the damage (writ of coin).

Because it's cheap and Rahjiin has cards like Grand Larceny, you can pickup a card for you own deck and spam (ETA in the same turn). The value of bewilderment isn't that it gives 0 coin, it's that it permanently breaks the ability to combo. Combos are how almost every deck wins games. It makes it extremely difficult for an opponent to win even if you don't have the deck to win a timely fashion.

Only Rajhin, Crow and Druid King really relies on combos, most of the other decks only go up to combo 2. If you have a dedicated deck then 1 or 2 dud card won't break any combos. The 0 value does hurt tho.
Like Armory is not a combo card, so nothing to break, but if you don't draw it then you get nothing out of it.

When someone spams it, you get a lot of zero value cards.

While some are less dependent specifically on combo effects, even they need you to draw more color cards than cards that don't have a color because those cards generate zero power and take the place of something that either could have done that or at least setup you up for a better position to generate to generate power in another turn (e.g. Ansei could have pushed a card to the top of your deck).

Pelin for example really only works as a "rush" deck, if you can slow down the power generation of Pelin then it's not going to add a lot of anything else to your deck and your ability to win decreases. Beyond that some of Pelin cards do depend on comboing to be good at mid to late game such as Legion's arrival.

Well, maybe we could have bewilderman cards that gove you 1 gold. Do you think this could be a balanced way to not kill off the opponent's playstyle entirely but still killing of combos?

spartaxoxo · February 2023

phantasmalD wrote: »

Aaaaaaand [Legion's arrival] pretty much the only Pelin card that needs combo for power. Also, an aggro deck is never supposed to be good mid-to-late game. A rush deck running out of steam and breaking down late game is the expected behaviour.

Spam makes it break down way earlier than is natural.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Well, maybe we could have bewilderman cards that gove you 1 gold. Do you think this could be a balanced way to not kill off the opponent's playstyle entirely but still killing of combos?

I don't know that it would help that much but it would probably be more balanced. I'd certainly hope it would be something they tried. I still think that permanent control over an opponents deck is too cheap given the importance of drawing color cards to win condition.