The design decisions behind this set make no sense. It’s going to be extremely overpowered against small group players, and will be the best dueling set in the game. Essentially this will deal 3-4x the damage of every other DOT set in the game and ignore shields and mitigation. And the counter play… don’t heal??

MentalxHammer wrote: »

The design decisions behind this set make no sense. It’s going to be extremely overpowered against small group players, and will be the best dueling set in the game. Essentially this will deal 3-4x the damage of every other DOT set in the game and ignore shields and mitigation. And the counter play… don’t heal??

Agreed, exactly why i made this thread. As a recently returning player after 3 year break that is mainly into PVP and i mainly play solo. I was waiting until this next update to make my pvp gear builds cause i didnt want to waste the limited mats i have until i see the changes. But this set right here, will make me leave the game again i am afraid. I left before because of the constant balance issues. Not sure how this set even made it to the PTS.

Soraka wrote: »

Are we sure it's only one enemy at a time? I'm reading it as one stack per enemy not just one enemy.
(5 items) Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds. Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 2848 Daedric Damage, up to once per second. An enemy can only be effected by one instance of Star Venom at a time.

You can only apply Star Venom once every 12 seconds.
Once applied an enemy you have a 12 second cooldown before you can apply it again.
That enemy then has 6 seconds of the effect ticking whenever they heal (up to once per second).
I am curious how exactly this gets triggered for skills like Caltrops that apply their debuff in an AOE. My assumption would be that it just won't get applied and that it needs to be a direct target debuff.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Soraka wrote: »

Are we sure it's only one enemy at a time? I'm reading it as one stack per enemy not just one enemy.
(5 items) Applying a Major or Minor Debuff to an enemy applies Star Venom to them for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds. Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 2848 Daedric Damage, up to once per second. An enemy can only be effected by one instance of Star Venom at a time.

usually if the cooldown was per target, it would state so

plaguebreak has a similar condition, where they cannot be affected by it if they are already a plague carrier, but explicitly also says 20 sec cooldown per target

this one reads kind of the same, however it just says 12 sec cooldown, so that is 50% uptime, on 1 target at a time, and they cannot be stacked by multiple people (so if 2 people have the set, 1 person will proc, the other will not)

in a 2v1 situation, 2 people could keep 1 person constantly under this effect, but the 1 person could only have 50% uptime on 1 target, not both

the only reason i dont see this turning the tables on a ball group is that this proc is also likely purgeable, so even if the ballgroup was outnumbered 3:1, the effect both could be cleansed or doesnt last long enough to provide any meaningful effect

it will be very powerful against solo targets (again unless they can purge), so i possibly see it more as a tool to help kill troll tanks by hitting them with oblivion dmg when they try to heal, as they will likely be outnumbered and keep getting the proc on them

Okay thank you. At least there's that. I'm concerned about this set, as a solo pug healer. Hopefully it works out and isn't as awful as it seems.

Based on my tests, I don't think it'll be that strong for the following reasons:

1. It has a long cooldown. Players can apply the debuff once, to a single target, every 12 seconds.
2. Difficult to time in a rotation. The effect is activated on any minor or major debuff applied. If you light attack and end up proc'ing sundered (minor breach), then the effect is activated and it can't happen again for another 12 seconds. In order to use the set effectively, you'll want to time it so it's activated when your target is feeling pressured, especially considering the long cooldown. In contrast, a set like Oblivions Foe can be activated on demand (and on multiple targets).
3. Difficult to track. If you use something like razor caltrops on a group of players, they are all affected with major breach, but the set's effect only procs on one of them. There is no visual indicator telling you which one has it.
4. Not all targets heal every second. Targets who prefer burst heals might only feel the effect of the set once or twice in the 6 second window.
5. Can be cleansed (unconfirmed)
6. Affected by battle spirit (unconfirmed), which means it will deal 1300 damage per second. That's not nothing, but it isn't anything to write home to mama about either.

I could be wrong, but after playing around with it, I don't think it's for me.

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm surprised the set is receiving so much hate to be honest. I can see that it is probably very strong-- and hopefully the value will be adjusted if necessary-- but isn't this something we've all been asking for? A counter to healing?

I've never understood the desire to curtail ball groups. I mean if you wanna limit HoT stacks to 2 or 3 that's probably a smart suggestion-- but it is the ball groups that will coordinate to have exactly the limit of radiating regens and no more. Exactly the limit of echoing vigors and no more. Exactly the limit of every HoT in the game and no more.

Good ball groups will always run cyrodiil. That's fair, logical, AND balanced.

What this set does is make incredibly tanky solo targets killable. Which is the problem as I have always seen it-- good duelers can't kill each other because living is just so incredibly easy.

People see this set and they worry how it'll perform in 1vX. They worry how it'll perform in Xv1. Why worry about how balanced something is in unbalanced circumstances? Isn't it much more meaningful to see if it's balanced in balanced circumstances?

well all the situations have to apply

in a 1v1, i think this set could potentially be a game changer

in a 1vX it will be garbage

in a Xv1 it will also be kind potent because the target will have it on them all the time

against a ball group theres too much healing this is enough to counter maybe 1 hot not 5-6, as well as being purgeable

the 2 cases i see this will be used the most:

• troll tank counter
• gank build (initial burst, apply star venom so the target cant effectively heal making it harder to recover and more likely to be executed)

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm surprised the set is receiving so much hate to be honest. I can see that it is probably very strong-- and hopefully the value will be adjusted if necessary-- but isn't this something we've all been asking for? A counter to healing?

I've never understood the desire to curtail ball groups. I mean if you wanna limit HoT stacks to 2 or 3 that's probably a smart suggestion-- but it is the ball groups that will coordinate to have exactly the limit of radiating regens and no more. Exactly the limit of echoing vigors and no more. Exactly the limit of every HoT in the game and no more.

Good ball groups will always run cyrodiil. That's fair, logical, AND balanced.

What this set does is make incredibly tanky solo targets killable. Which is the problem as I have always seen it-- good duelers can't kill each other because living is just so incredibly easy.

People see this set and they worry how it'll perform in 1vX. They worry how it'll perform in Xv1. Why worry about how balanced something is in unbalanced circumstances? Isn't it much more meaningful to see if it's balanced in balanced circumstances?

well all the situations have to apply

in a 1v1, i think this set could potentially be a game changer

in a 1vX it will be garbage

in a Xv1 it will also be kind potent because the target will have it on them all the time

against a ball group theres too much healing this is enough to counter maybe 1 hot not 5-6, as well as being purgeable

the 2 cases i see this will be used the most:

• troll tank counter
• gank build (initial burst, apply star venom so the target cant effectively heal making it harder to recover and more likely to be executed)

From a troll tank counter perspective, this would actually pair well with Sload's. Get an extra 1.5-2K oblivion damage on top of Snake's damage per second. Even for a build running 30K health, this set's 2848 damage + the 900 per second you would get against that health level, would be fairly decent. A nearly 4K dot on a player with those two sets. Very niche, but has some potential.

Fromage Duo! One wears Sloads, the other Snakin, both wear Knight Slayer and see who procceth the most pungent praise to Sheogorath O'Blivion!

This set is really going to hurt my vampire I imagine as well as other playstyles that heal over time like DK when doing damage with abilities like Burning Embers. They'll heal for the damage they do, but the vampire can't actually receive healing from other players.

So basically you're on your own getting slammed with high unmitigable damage every second whether you like it or not.

@OBJnoob: FWIW I'm in the camp that this set, in it's present form, is going to be toxic as f. It is Oblivion damage. It can't be mitigated. It is not affected by Battle Spirit. It's also been confirmed that it can be reapplied to a player every 6 seconds. All it takes is two players hunting down a single one. It IMO favors bigger groups over smaller ones. I don't know whether you remember Sloads. It was high Oblivion damage on it's release. No one liked that. It was one of the few occasions where ZOS nerfed the set after 6 weeks, e.g. before the usual 3 month window.

There are counters. If high health shielding sorcs work, that may be a counter, but they better not run Crit Surge. Or Polar Wind. Or Living Trellis. Or Swallow Soul. Or Vigor. Or Regeneration. Or <insert x>. Have you looked at your Vigor ticks? Are they even 2K in PvP? Meanwhile 2.8K Oblivion damage does what it says on the tin. Negating Vigor and then some. That's BS.

We've had anti-healing metas. There was Durok's Bane. There's Incap. This was more of a slow burn, but it also came to a head. At one point you could stack Major and Minor Defile with various amplifiers for something like 60% healing reduction on the target. People didn't like that. Granted that affected all your healing and Snake is capped, but at no point did it flat out invert a healing tick like Snake will do. I do not think people will like this. You effectively lose control of your character. If you run a heal, that should heal you, not do the opposite.

I think the meta we're in is actually kind of interesting. Healing is not that strong, but it can be stacked. It takes up bar space, at least as a solo player, for example when you replace some other skill with Vigor on your magicka build that already had heals. Hybridisation has made that possible, but I don't think individual heals are generally as strong as they have been in some older patches.

In my experience, damage metas don't last. Everyone who complains about a tank meta and looks for ZOS to fix it is, IMO, barking up the wrong tree. We had an extreme damage meta maybe 2 summers ago. It took a few weeks until everyone switched to Pariah or whatever the mitigation choice of the day was. IMO the majority of people do not like to die easily and they will always find ways of creating a tank meta whatever ZOS do. You're up against human nature.

When ZOS shift the goal post one way or the other, what that actually does is curtail the armor set selection that people will use. In a damage meta, people start wearing exclusively defensive sets. In an actual tank meta, people start wearing more offensive sets. You want a balanced meta where many sets, both offensive and defensive are viable. Of course Rallying Cry is having your cake and eating it, but you get the general idea.