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TTC suggested a sword motif was worth 13-16 million gold.

  • Dojohoda
    Dojohoda
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    I stepped in cow poo once, barefoot, and a thistle was under the poo. I didn't ask the cow why she left poo in the field because I should have been watching what I was doing.
    Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
    Might be joking in comments.
    -->(((Cyrodiil)))<--
  • Memory_In_Motion
    Memory_In_Motion
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    dont treat your friends like that, refund all the money, let them keep the motifs too
    i chose to refund the money and let them keep the motifs. This person has been very kind to me and so i'm gonna give them all the benefits.

    It wasn't particularly clear from your original post whether the buyer was a friend or just some random person from zone chat.

    My vote would have been "all sales final" for a random person, and one of the other options for a friend.

    That was on purpose because i value seeing a person innate bias. Seeing most people's innate bias to interpret the circumstance is as valuable as their response to me.
    Edited by Memory_In_Motion on 9 September 2022 20:06
  • ZiggyTStardust
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    The buyer (and you) probably didn't know about the undaunted event that would finally drop the opal illambris weapons again after a few years. They were incredibly rare and probably worth the 13-17 millions before the event, but during the event the price obviously dropped significatly
  • Memory_In_Motion
    Memory_In_Motion
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    dont treat your friends like that, refund all the money, let them keep the motifs too
    The buyer (and you) probably didn't know about the undaunted event that would finally drop the opal illambris weapons again after a few years. They were incredibly rare and probably worth the 13-17 millions before the event, but during the event the price obviously dropped significatly


    buyer is fond of telling me they have ben playing since beta as they have the pet monkey
  • Memory_In_Motion
    Memory_In_Motion
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    dont treat your friends like that, refund all the money, let them keep the motifs too
    MrLasagna wrote: »
    TTC does not suggest anything. Only show listed prices.
    No one asked him to buy at the start of the event when prices are crazy, just a hard learned lesson.

    it offers a suggested range of prices all you need do is check the price in chat
  • Troodon80
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    do nothing. all sales final.
    i have determined that ttc is a lousy addon and is not at all trustworthy.
    I think this is more than a little unfair. It's impossible for any addon to have a live feed to all transitions in the game. Markets shift and addons update within a day or two. TTC, you could go to the site and do a price check for a given date range, same with UESP. MM/ATT have specific date range options you can set where you can hold Shift or Ctrl or Shift+Ctrl. TTC isn't lousy, it's just one possible data point.
    ng3gtxbfj0ht.png
    nh1cqo7ni7kl.png
    4go0d79vmq86.png

    Addons are not fast with updating for market trends. It's not even that they're not trustworthy. The trends fluctuate with supply and demand. When the demand is scarce, people can list style pages for multiple millions and they will sell because everyone is doing the same thing. When a market is flooded, people compete for fast sales. If anything, the people listing at 200k~400k are the outliers until the market stabilises again around a new average which is much lower than what it was.

    Another point to make is that addons are not infallible. If someone lists an item for sale at 200k, something which is listed by others at 15M, they can make a fast sale and then limit their addon's timeframe output (e.g. "sales in the last day"), thus skewing the data. This can work both ways. But it's not necessarily the addon's fault, and has little if anything to do with its trustworthiness.

    @Troodon80 PC | EU
    Guild: N&S
    Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
    Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics
  • Memory_In_Motion
    Memory_In_Motion
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    dont treat your friends like that, refund all the money, let them keep the motifs too
    Troodon80 wrote: »
    i have determined that ttc is a lousy addon and is not at all trustworthy.
    I think this is more than a little unfair. It's impossible for any addon to have a live feed to all transitions in the game. Markets shift and addons update within a day or two. TTC, you could go to the site and do a price check for a given date range, same with UESP. MM/ATT have specific date range options you can set where you can hold Shift or Ctrl or Shift+Ctrl. TTC isn't lousy, it's just one possible data point.
    ng3gtxbfj0ht.png
    nh1cqo7ni7kl.png
    4go0d79vmq86.png

    Addons are not fast with updating for market trends. It's not even that they're not trustworthy. The trends fluctuate with supply and demand. When the demand is scarce, people can list style pages for multiple millions and they will sell because everyone is doing the same thing. When a market is flooded, people compete for fast sales. If anything, the people listing at 200k~400k are the outliers until the market stabilises again around a new average which is much lower than what it was.

    Another point to make is that addons are not infallible. If someone lists an item for sale at 200k, something which is listed by others at 15M, they can make a fast sale and then limit their addon's timeframe output (e.g. "sales in the last day"), thus skewing the data. This can work both ways. But it's not necessarily the addon's fault, and has little if anything to do with its trustworthiness.

    The addon use averages which are strongly skewed by extreme highs and lows. They chose to use averages rather than median prices so it is their faulty design that is the issue afaik, ergo their fault.
  • Troodon80
    Troodon80
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    do nothing. all sales final.
    The addon use averages which are strongly skewed by extreme highs and lows. They chose to use averages rather than median prices so it is their faulty design that is the issue afaik, ergo their fault.
    You can't use a median for an item trend in one day, the much lower prices are the outliers until the average number of items being listed for substantially lower becomes the new median. No addon can do that as they are not a live feed, so it's not that TTC is being untrustworthy. "Suggested" prices are as close to median as you can get, since they remove outliers, while averages are, indeed, fallible. However, even averages will bounce around as more people list for less. You'll see both average and suggested prices dip over the coming days in all pricing addons. To call the addon lousy or untrustworthy is quite simply unfair, you just need to wait a day or two to see the results trickle in as they're not live/instant. That's not a design flaw with the addons, that's an access/API issue (it's not an issue).

    Master Merchant clips outliers (it's an option in the addon settings) and TTC clips outliers in its suggested pricing (but not for average). Here's an item for example:
    82rosqkdrob1.png


    You can see here from this graph that the line is definitely not just an average (though you cannot see the actual values in this image: 12027, 12222, 18000, 1000, 6892, 5549, 7982, 3500). If it were an average, it would say MM: 8396. It says 6697. Same thing with TTC's pricing, you can see that the suggested price is wildly different from the average.

    Edited by Troodon80 on 10 September 2022 00:59
    @Troodon80 PC | EU
    Guild: N&S
    Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
    Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics
  • Memory_In_Motion
    Memory_In_Motion
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    dont treat your friends like that, refund all the money, let them keep the motifs too
    Troodon80 wrote: »
    The addon use averages which are strongly skewed by extreme highs and lows. They chose to use averages rather than median prices so it is their faulty design that is the issue afaik, ergo their fault.
    You can't use a median for an item trend in one day, the much lower prices are the outliers until the average number of items being listed for substantially lower becomes the new median. No addon can do that as they are not a live feed, so it's not that TTC is being untrustworthy. "Suggested" prices are as close to median as you can get, since they remove outliers, while averages are, indeed, fallible. However, even averages will bounce around as more people list for less. You'll see both average and suggested prices dip over the coming days in all pricing addons. To call the addon lousy or untrustworthy is quite simply unfair, you just need to wait a day or two to see the results trickle in as they're not live/instant. That's not a design flaw with the addons, that's an access/API issue (it's not an issue).

    Master Merchant clips outliers (it's an option in the addon settings) and TTC clips outliers in its suggested pricing (but not for average). Here's an item for example:
    82rosqkdrob1.png


    You can see here from this graph that the line is definitely not just an average (though you cannot see the actual values in this image: 12027, 12222, 18000, 1000, 6892, 5549, 7982, 3500). If it were an average, it would say MM: 8396. It says 6697. Same thing with TTC's pricing, you can see that the suggested price is wildly different from the average.

    TTC records posted asking prices not actual sales prices. Also none of these addons do it across all guilds for all sales.
  • Memory_In_Motion
    Memory_In_Motion
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    dont treat your friends like that, refund all the money, let them keep the motifs too
    Troodon80 wrote: »
    The addon use averages which are strongly skewed by extreme highs and lows. They chose to use averages rather than median prices so it is their faulty design that is the issue afaik, ergo their fault.
    You can't use a median for an item trend in one day, the much lower prices are the outliers until the average number of items being listed for substantially lower becomes the new median. No addon can do that as they are not a live feed, so it's not that TTC is being untrustworthy. "Suggested" prices are as close to median as you can get, since they remove outliers, while averages are, indeed, fallible. However, even averages will bounce around as more people list for less. You'll see both average and suggested prices dip over the coming days in all pricing addons. To call the addon lousy or untrustworthy is quite simply unfair, you just need to wait a day or two to see the results trickle in as they're not live/instant. That's not a design flaw with the addons, that's an access/API issue (it's not an issue).

    Master Merchant clips outliers (it's an option in the addon settings) and TTC clips outliers in its suggested pricing (but not for average). Here's an item for example:
    82rosqkdrob1.png


    You can see here from this graph that the line is definitely not just an average (though you cannot see the actual values in this image: 12027, 12222, 18000, 1000, 6892, 5549, 7982, 3500). If it were an average, it would say MM: 8396. It says 6697. Same thing with TTC's pricing, you can see that the suggested price is wildly different from the average.

    TTC records posted asking prices not actual sales prices. Also none of these addons do it across all guilds for all sales.

    And now we both are wildly off topic
  • Baertram
    Baertram
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    The addon use averages which are strongly skewed by extreme highs and lows. They chose to use averages rather than median prices so it is their faulty design that is the issue afaik, ergo their fault.

    Why is it their fault if they are designed that way and tell YOU that in their description and settings etc.?
    It's no fault because it's working as intended and the only fault was you guys not paying attention, and now ranting about it!

    As always others are the ones doing the errors and you never are wrong? It's just unfair what you write here and in the end you should just live and paly without addons then as they are faulty and wrong...
    And this is not off topic, you have started that thread and should live with the feedback too.

    You could create your own addon for your personal needs. Howtos a nd tutorials exist, ressources to contact others devs too.
    Instead you go the easy way and just blame the existing ones to be wrong because they do not exactly follow your ideas and best practices you assume they should follow :/
    Maybe there exist "reasons" why they did it that way, maybe even technical reasons because of missing API, missing access to other data, server becoming slow and unresponsive if addons read each guild sales and data too often(what was the case and ZOs changed the access for servers performance), etc.
  • Memory_In_Motion
    Memory_In_Motion
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    dont treat your friends like that, refund all the money, let them keep the motifs too
    Baertram wrote: »
    The addon use averages which are strongly skewed by extreme highs and lows. They chose to use averages rather than median prices so it is their faulty design that is the issue afaik, ergo their fault.

    Why is it their fault if they are designed that way and tell YOU that in their description and settings etc.?
    It's no fault because it's working as intended and the only fault was you guys not paying attention, and now ranting about it!

    As always others are the ones doing the errors and you never are wrong? It's just unfair what you write here and in the end you should just live and paly without addons then as they are faulty and wrong...
    And this is not off topic, you have started that thread and should live with the feedback too.

    You could create your own addon for your personal needs. Howtos a nd tutorials exist, ressources to contact others devs too.
    Instead you go the easy way and just blame the existing ones to be wrong because they do not exactly follow your ideas and best practices you assume they should follow :/
    Maybe there exist "reasons" why they did it that way, maybe even technical reasons because of missing API, missing access to other data, server becoming slow and unresponsive if addons read each guild sales and data too often(what was the case and ZOs changed the access for servers performance), etc.

    As always? You haven't enough data points to assert as always. I got this account to play from steam on july 31st and been in the forums some time after that. As always is a distortion of facts that are observable by pointing to any post that doesn't meet your as always criteria. Shall i link a few?

    And just to be sure you understand my perspective on this: averages are the statistical equivalent of spreading misinformation. They are unreliable as noted, because they are heavily biased by extremes of highs and lows.

    "Maybe reasons" seems like not effective argumentation. I remain unconvinced.

    Why it's off topic is because the OP was about what to do with a complaint of someone who had buyers remorse after spending 14 mil on gold motifs that were worth considerably less some 6 hrs after purchase. Yes the addons are unreliable because they can't keep up but also my friend got to keep the motifs and i returned the 14 mil because he's always generous with me and so i returned the generosity as well. Also, it's only a game. It's not my religion, it aint the matrix i wish to hide in, and i aint paid real cash from ie it's not my job.

    Blessings to you. Have a wonderful day!
  • Baertram
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    As always was generally spoken, you are right. I meant that saying the addon is the error is not fair, and ppl often blame the wrong (addons, devs) for not doing what they think they should do, where their description/Screenshots/tutorials/posts clearly describe what they actually do.

    Okay, strip the maybe and believe me there exist reasons then. Even if they are personal because min/avg/Max are easier to store and show for the items. Another calculation might be added, if you ask the author for that feature. As long as the date was provided and is usable to obtain your desired result it should be possible. And the maybe here was because I do not know if the date is provided already that way and if the API is able to help and if the SavedVariables are not blown up increasing loading times aot cuz you need to store wax more data then actually saved. That's why I wrote maybe. The author should know best, ask for the feature.
  • JanTanhide
    JanTanhide
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    do nothing. all sales final.
    Not your fault. He/she purchased it at the agreed on price. End of story.

    I'm sure if you had listed it for 16K instead of 16 million and it was purchased that person that bought it would gladly send you another 16 million. Right?

    All sales final.
  • SilverBride
    SilverBride
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    do nothing. all sales final.
    I've left off a 0 before and sold gold mats for a real bargain for the player who found them, but I didn't go after them and demand more gold because I had made a mistake listing the item. Why should someone who overpaid get their gold back?

    If we make a mistake we are the only one responsible.
    PCNA
  • I_killed_Vivec
    I_killed_Vivec
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    I've left off a 0 before and sold gold mats for a real bargain for the player who found them, but I didn't go after them and demand more gold because I had made a mistake listing the item. Why should someone who overpaid get their gold back?

    If we make a mistake we are the only one responsible.

    I saw someone do that with a rare motif - I sent them a message telling them it was heavily under priced. My good deed was rewarded... they thanked me and offered it to me at half (the real) price:)

    This case of selling for millions when it is later only worth hundreds of thousands calls into question the meaning or "worth".

    Particularly in an event, prices have a habit of plunging significantly. If you see something sold for 100k then the next day it will be under 50k, so either you get rid of it quick or you suffer a further loss in profit. And if you then put it up for sale at 25K then you are the self-fulfilling prophesy because you have brought the price down... but if you held out for 40K then you will be undercut by the people who undercut my 25K sale. Would your friend then recompense you when they buy for only 10K?

    There is no reason why you shouldn't try to maximize your gains, and if someone is willing to pay 10M then so be it. That is the price before the downward spiral takes effect.

    In the end, something is only worth what people are willing to pay...
  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
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    refund their money and receive all motifs back
    If they haven't actually bound the motifs already, unwind the transaction as it's kind of clear neither of you really knew what you were getting into. If you are asking here, you probably didn't intend to give them a bad deal it's just the way it happened to go.

    If they have, refund them the difference between the value now and what they paid.

    When you look up a price on TTC for any big ticket item use the website not the addon so you can get a view of the more current listings for the item. The addon in game at times seems to overrate older data.

    Yeah, it will stink to mess out on a large profit but, do you really want to live with knowing at the back of your mind how you got that large profit?

    This ^ OP mentioned they were friends with the buyer, so it's likely not a scam, in this case if they haven't already learned the motifs, then they could trade you the motifs back and you can trade them the gold.
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