Maintenance for the week of September 29:
• [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
• [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
• [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
Remove group buffs in PVP.
-
kurbbie_s✭✭✭ITT: Make everyone run Oakensoul
Advice: Stop stepping into their caltrops, this lowers your resists and makes you easy to kill. Stop letting them bait you into enclosed spaces so they can Dark Convergence bomb you, and stop being around people with less than 20k hp (or stop being that low HP person who gets everyone killed), or simply find ways to enjoy non-CP non-proc set play. Cyrodiil isn't the be-all end-all, especially for newer players, it's a harsh reality. Skill-based pvp doesn't exist in the 30 day campaign, only tactics win.
oh, no proc. no cp? The dead servers that no one goes to because it takes skill instead of gear and cp? [snip]
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 3 September 2022 16:472 -
kurbbie_s✭✭✭Remathilis wrote: »Just play no CP/no procc. That should fix your issues.
servers are dead. no one plays in there. cyrodill should have never had procs in it in the first place. Procs killed pvp0 -
kurbbie_s✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Group buffs are ridiculously overpowered to the point that 12 people can take on 40 and win, very easily.. for hours.. we've all seen It, it takes zero skill. let's ban together and ask Zeni to fix this. Simply remove group buffs for PVP. You should not be rewarded with OP buffs for ignoring the game mode (cyro specifically) and ignoring your team to run around and farm kills.
Show support by commenting a yes, or a no with a valid reason why you believe it should stay.
Facilitate the teamplay by nerfing teamplay elements? Where have I seen this line of thinking before... hmmm... can't be U35 with increase accessibility claim by ZOS who then nerfed dps which is a crucial element that allows people to access more difficult content and call it accessibility patch.
easy fix Turn off proc sets. Would fix the ***. most of you would quit because you rely on *** to win0 -
kurbbie_s✭✭✭
Group buffs are buffs group members give to other group members like minor brutality(dk), sorcery(templar), toughness(warden), minor and major expedition(maneuver), courage and resolve(magma incarnate), major courage(olorime, spellpowercure), evasion(grossamrt)powerful assault, meteoriteous service, rallying cry, sanctuary, transmutation, wormkult, hircines veneer, ebon armory, synphonie of blades. A way to remove them would be to make players not receive them. Saying a 12 man group only can kill 40 randoms because they are more skilled is wrong, the buffs i listed give every player in group much higher stats than an ungrouped player and heal stacking gives them much higher healing then any player can get alone. And they have a leader, voice chat and communication, and they are grouped all the time, advantages ZoS can never take away and the only advantage organized groups need. And organized groups zerg solo players themselves, dont know why an each member of an organized group should also have higher stats than a solo player and more healing.@ithehavok
What buffs are you pointing at? Minor resolve, minor intellect, major resolve? Could you specify and in what way they are overpowered in a group? How would you technically from a programmers view remove buffs when players are grouped up, how big of a group will that start from, 2 players? Will it prevent them from casting skills that give buffs, class passives that give buffs?
Gear set make a big difference to how well you will play. If you lack resource regeneration you will not be able to use skills, if you lack damage you will not be able to kill someone healing themselves and so on. There is however a big portion of skill based gameplay involved, knowing when to roll dodge, when to block, when to burst, keeping your buffs up, what skill to use and when, line of sight and more. Denying that a players skill is necessary to perform well is like saying that training skating technique for ice hockey is useless, use better skates than your opponent and you will succeed. Knowing what tactic work and not is also a aquired skill.
Your mma and shooter analogy do not make sense since that is a literal rulebreak and it is not allowed and the person will be disqualified. You are saying that groups get too strong with buffs. See the difference? Females also feel pain when getting kicked in the groin
Player create builds that are better for solo and players create builds that work better in a group. Ofcourse if you use a group build as a solo player you will perform worse than if you used a solo build, that is why they would die easier if you lure them away from their group. It do not mean the lack skill or a worthless without their group.
If that group of 40 would have been as coordinated as the group of 12 they would have won. As in also buffing eachother, attacked at the same time, using siege etc.doesurmindglow wrote: »Them: Just nerf purge and ball groups will disappear!
Me: That won't work, and when it doesn't, you'll just be back here asking for another nerf.
ZOS: *Introduces Plaguebreak*
Them: Just nerf crossheals and ball groups will disappear!
Me: That won't work, and when it doesn't, you'll just be back here asking for another nerf.
ZOS: *Nerfs crossheals*
Them: Just nerf group buffs and ball groups will disappear!
Me: :eyeroll:
Because plaguebreak makes purging deadly, Ball groups cant purge dots, curse, endless fury, Purifying light and debuffs can now dmg them. They only compensated by higher cross healing.
Zos didnt specifically nerfed cross healing and heal stacking. They nerfed most HoTs, also single Target and Self heals like dark cloak and resolving vigor, before they reverted nerf and buffed it insteat. Instant cross heals didnt get nerfed at all. And you still can stack as many HoTs as you have.
Sure the aberage organized group player is probably better than the average random, especially better than the average Zergling, coordination also requires skill, but they get carried very much by group buffs and heal stacking.
wrong. they nerfed resto staff heals. Buffed vigor. Now everyone just stacks vigor. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 3 September 2022 16:480 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭Group buffs are ridiculously overpowered to the point that 12 people can take on 40 and win, very easily.. for hours.. we've all seen It, it takes zero skill. let's ban together and ask Zeni to fix this. Simply remove group buffs for PVP. You should not be rewarded with OP buffs for ignoring the game mode (cyro specifically) and ignoring your team to run around and farm kills.
Show support by commenting a yes, or a no with a valid reason why you believe it should stay.
12 people can take on and beat 40 over and over for hours and it takes no skill because of... ... ... ... Group buffs? GROUP buffs?
That makes zero sense.0 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭
So you think because they are already at advantage by beeing coordinated and can kill everyone with ulti dumps, it doesnt hurt if they get buffed even more by group buffs and crosshealing? And there are also many „smallscales“ and groups using cross healing and group buff sets despite only PvDooring and Zerging Solo Players. And if you hit them with enaugh dmg to kill a solo player, they still survive because they get kept alive by defensive group buffs and cross healing.@Iriidius If 12 players use dawnbreaker at the same time and each deal 5k dmg after mitigation=60k dmg. If these group buff sets you talk about add about 1000 dmg to each players skill, then after we remove them they still deal 48k dmg. You will still be dead after they attacked you in a coordinated manner. Not to talk about they will all have replaced the group buff sets with individual buff sets.
They will still be able to crossheal eachother and they will continue to play coordinated and will still outmaneuver pugs in terms of teamplay.
Asking to remove buffs in pvp is like soz removing light attack weaving. Nothing will change, the top will still be at the top and the game will be less enjoyable.
If only 7 of the dawnbreakers hit me and the other ones miss, i would take 28k dmg without group buffs and 35k with group buffs. The first i can survive, the second not.1 -
kypranb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »Group buffs are ridiculously overpowered to the point that 12 people can take on 40 and win, very easily.. for hours.. we've all seen It, it takes zero skill. let's ban together and ask Zeni to fix this. Simply remove group buffs for PVP. You should not be rewarded with OP buffs for ignoring the game mode (cyro specifically) and ignoring your team to run around and farm kills.
Show support by commenting a yes, or a no with a valid reason why you believe it should stay.
how does it not take skill to fight outnumbered with 12 v 40 ? If these 12 are not better in their group setup and their skills, why do they win then ?
Once again I say it does not take skill to fight in CP scenario, it takes tactics. Ever notice those necromancers baiting you to be around NPCs and suddenly you die? Or maybe that DK who plaguebreaks a flag's guards then divebombs them when you get close and you all die. This is not skill, it's tactics. You are deluding yourself if you think these ball groups have skill, take away their CP and proc sets and put them in the same scenario and they'll get steamrolled. The real competitive play is in Non-CP gameplay, battlegrounds is a happy medium between having proc sets and no cp.
Isn't the successful execution of tactics what separates skilled players from potatoes? You can strip every one of their equipment and a team of 12 team-oriented naked players successfully executing tactics is going to mash 24+ naked potatoes every single time.
2 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No. Not everyone wants to be a solo hero in PvP. It actually takes a pretty decent amount of skill to run a successful group. Also, I think we've suffered enough nerfs lately. Let's give it a little bit of a break please.
no it doesnt, everyone puts on proc sets that do the work for you, run into a group with everyones procs and proxy det going off. That isnt skill
If it's not skill, then why aren't the pugs we're routinely outnumbered by 4 or 5 to 1 countering us with those skills/sets? If it's just gear and skills, as you're saying, anyone can use those, so why aren't they?PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero2 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Group buffs are buffs group members give to other group members like minor brutality(dk), sorcery(templar), toughness(warden), minor and major expedition(maneuver), courage and resolve(magma incarnate), major courage(olorime, spellpowercure), evasion(grossamrt)powerful assault, meteoriteous service, rallying cry, sanctuary, transmutation, wormkult, hircines veneer, ebon armory, synphonie of blades. A way to remove them would be to make players not receive them. Saying a 12 man group only can kill 40 randoms because they are more skilled is wrong, the buffs i listed give every player in group much higher stats than an ungrouped player and heal stacking gives them much higher healing then any player can get alone. And they have a leader, voice chat and communication, and they are grouped all the time, advantages ZoS can never take away and the only advantage organized groups need. And organized groups zerg solo players themselves, dont know why an each member of an organized group should also have higher stats than a solo player and more healing.@ithehavok
What buffs are you pointing at? Minor resolve, minor intellect, major resolve? Could you specify and in what way they are overpowered in a group? How would you technically from a programmers view remove buffs when players are grouped up, how big of a group will that start from, 2 players? Will it prevent them from casting skills that give buffs, class passives that give buffs?
Gear set make a big difference to how well you will play. If you lack resource regeneration you will not be able to use skills, if you lack damage you will not be able to kill someone healing themselves and so on. There is however a big portion of skill based gameplay involved, knowing when to roll dodge, when to block, when to burst, keeping your buffs up, what skill to use and when, line of sight and more. Denying that a players skill is necessary to perform well is like saying that training skating technique for ice hockey is useless, use better skates than your opponent and you will succeed. Knowing what tactic work and not is also a aquired skill.
Your mma and shooter analogy do not make sense since that is a literal rulebreak and it is not allowed and the person will be disqualified. You are saying that groups get too strong with buffs. See the difference? Females also feel pain when getting kicked in the groin
Player create builds that are better for solo and players create builds that work better in a group. Ofcourse if you use a group build as a solo player you will perform worse than if you used a solo build, that is why they would die easier if you lure them away from their group. It do not mean the lack skill or a worthless without their group.
If that group of 40 would have been as coordinated as the group of 12 they would have won. As in also buffing eachother, attacked at the same time, using siege etc.doesurmindglow wrote: »Them: Just nerf purge and ball groups will disappear!
Me: That won't work, and when it doesn't, you'll just be back here asking for another nerf.
ZOS: *Introduces Plaguebreak*
Them: Just nerf crossheals and ball groups will disappear!
Me: That won't work, and when it doesn't, you'll just be back here asking for another nerf.
ZOS: *Nerfs crossheals*
Them: Just nerf group buffs and ball groups will disappear!
Me: :eyeroll:
Because plaguebreak makes purging deadly, Ball groups cant purge dots, curse, endless fury, Purifying light and debuffs can now dmg them. They only compensated by higher cross healing.
Zos didnt specifically nerfed cross healing and heal stacking. They nerfed most HoTs, also single Target and Self heals like dark cloak and resolving vigor, before they reverted nerf and buffed it insteat. Instant cross heals didnt get nerfed at all. And you still can stack as many HoTs as you have.
Sure the aberage organized group player is probably better than the average random, especially better than the average Zergling, coordination also requires skill, but they get carried very much by group buffs and heal stacking.
wrong. they nerfed resto staff heals. Buffed vigor. Now everyone just stacks vigor. [snip]
Incorrect, they severely gutted Echoing vigor and buffed the selfish morph. You can't stack multiple instances of a self-targeted heal on yourself. Also, they hit almost all healing this patch. It's in the patch notes.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 3 September 2022 16:52PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. Not everyone wants to be a solo hero in PvP. It actually takes a pretty decent amount of skill to run a successful group. Also, I think we've suffered enough nerfs lately. Let's give it a little bit of a break please.
no it doesnt, everyone puts on proc sets that do the work for you, run into a group with everyones procs and proxy det going off. That isnt skill
If a ball group didnt take skill, there wouldnt be good ones and bad ones, and there clearly are both types and everything in between. Now, I certainly agree that ZOS needs to make a concerted effort to limit their effectiveness, and I certainly agree that they have been overpowered for a while, but removing group buffs is not the answer.
It is also a tired response that when you dont like a playstyle to say it takes no skill. Its nonsense and makes it very hard to have meaningful debate. Some of the most skilled players in PVP run in ball groups (and some really terrible ones do to).Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on 30 August 2022 15:582 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Group buffs are ridiculously overpowered to the point that 12 people can take on 40 and win, very easily.. for hours.. we've all seen It, it takes zero skill. let's ban together and ask Zeni to fix this. Simply remove group buffs for PVP. You should not be rewarded with OP buffs for ignoring the game mode (cyro specifically) and ignoring your team to run around and farm kills.
Show support by commenting a yes, or a no with a valid reason why you believe it should stay.
Facilitate the teamplay by nerfing teamplay elements? Where have I seen this line of thinking before... hmmm... can't be U35 with increase accessibility claim by ZOS who then nerfed dps which is a crucial element that allows people to access more difficult content and call it accessibility patch.
easy fix Turn off proc sets. Would fix the ***. most of you would quit because you rely on *** to win
they couldnt turn off proc sets without reworking like a vast majority of the pvp sets
vicious death for example, this is a proc set, but it has no function outside of pvp, just one of many that would have to be entirely reworked to work in a no proc environment
if you hate proc so much, why not go to the no proc campaign, thats why its there... lolplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Facts of life:
1. It is a 3-way alliance v alliance game with the maximum team size only limited by population cap
2. Each additional player is a 100% buff.
3. Each additional player effectively gives you an additional skill bar
3. Each additional player effectively reduces the global cooldown by 50%
4. Out of band voice coms and coordination magnifies this by an order of magnitude
I have never seen a single recommendation that would actually impact that and change the equation from.
Out of band voice coms and coordination are the true "skilled play". A really, really tight "ball group" moves and reacts almost like a single player with access to every skill in the game and no GCD. Pretty impressive actually, coming from a non-ballgroup players point of view.
3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facts of life:
1. It is a 3-way alliance v alliance game with the maximum team size only limited by population cap
2. Each additional player is a 100% buff.
3. Each additional player effectively gives you an additional skill bar
3. Each additional player effectively reduces the global cooldown by 50%
4. Out of band voice coms and coordination magnifies this by an order of magnitude
I have never seen a single recommendation that would actually impact that and change the equation from.
Out of band voice coms and coordination are the true "skilled play". A really, really tight "ball group" moves and reacts almost like a single player with access to every skill in the game and no GCD. Pretty impressive actually, coming from a non-ballgroup players point of view.
I quite agree with those factors. Now, add 24+ sets to the mix, and all the group buffs that come with it as another factor.
It's not going to make a dent in the factors you list if ball groups can't be a "Christmas Tree Zerg" like we were once called while wearing Ebon Armory, Worm Cult, Sanctuary, and Hircine's Veneer. But as someone who wore Meritorious Service and Worm Cult for a PVP guild, it is an additional factor in why organized groups who stick together are so powerful in relation to disorganized players. When I PUGed as a healer, players in my group were just too spread apart to get much benefit from the support sets I was wearing. Meritorious Service and Worm Cult were wasted sets most of the time when I PUGed.
If ZOS wants to tackle the group set buffs part of the equation, I'd say another viable way to make them more accessible is to extend the buff range. Ball groups will still stick together for other reasons, but a larger range means that PUGs who spread out across an inner keep will still get the benefit of wearing group support sets instead of it basically being a waste that naturally means they don't use those sets.Edited by VaranisArano on 30 August 2022 23:521 -
WinterHeart626✭✭✭✭[snip]
It’s called an organised raid group, so yes, they should be able to 12 v 30-40 when it’s disorganised zergs.
Tactics, strategy and skill. Those are the defining features, oh, and communication, assigned job roles (mines heals/ buffs and shields)
You ever see those guys who 1v12? It’s a similar thing, they’re tanky, and their jobs to hold up as many zergles as possible while the gankers do their jobs etc.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 3 September 2022 16:501 -
Jurand80✭✭✭✭I stopped playing so long ago. PVP used to be fun, [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 3 September 2022 16:540