You're not a solo hero when you're not in a group, you're on a team playing in a team based game mode. Playing in a group in cyro is isolating yourself from the rest of your team. 12 people should not be taking on 40-50-60 players and winning consistently, that's beyond terrible balancing. Why not just give certain people in cod aimbots, it's the same level of broken.

p00tx wrote: »

ithehavok wrote: »

You're not a solo hero when you're not in a group, you're on a team playing in a team based game mode. Playing in a group in cyro is isolating yourself from the rest of your team. 12 people should not be taking on 40-50-60 players and winning consistently, that's beyond terrible balancing. Why not just give certain people in cod aimbots, it's the same level of broken.

I mean, we all have the same access to the same sets and skills, so the only variable is player skill, and you can't nerf player skill.

That logic does not work. First off, the skill ceiling in ESO is very low. Gear is what makes the ball groups so OP, not skill. Take that same 12 person ball group and remove the group buffs and they will no longer be able to be faction stacked for 2 hours and win. Gear =/= skill and there is zero skill in abusing broken game mechanics That's like being in an mma ring as a male fighter and kicking an opponent in the groin and winning and saying, "well he could do it to" in defense of the action.

Furthermore, aim bots and walls are available for everyone to use in shooters as well, should that also be allowed? Of course not. Just because everyone has access to something does not make it balanced.

ithehavok wrote: »

Group buffs are ridiculously overpowered to the point that 12 people can take on 40 and win, very easily.. for hours.. we've all seen It, it takes zero skill. let's ban together and ask Zeni to fix this. Simply remove group buffs for PVP. You should not be rewarded with OP buffs for ignoring the game mode (cyro specifically) and ignoring your team to run around and farm kills.

Show support by commenting a yes, or a no with a valid reason why you believe it should stay.

how does it not take skill to fight outnumbered with 12 v 40 ? If these 12 are not better in their group setup and their skills, why do they win then ?

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

ithehavok wrote: »

Group buffs are ridiculously overpowered to the point that 12 people can take on 40 and win, very easily.. for hours.. we've all seen It, it takes zero skill. let's ban together and ask Zeni to fix this. Simply remove group buffs for PVP. You should not be rewarded with OP buffs for ignoring the game mode (cyro specifically) and ignoring your team to run around and farm kills.

Show support by commenting a yes, or a no with a valid reason why you believe it should stay.

how does it not take skill to fight outnumbered with 12 v 40 ? If these 12 are not better in their group setup and their skills, why do they win then ?

Gear is what's broken and that's what makes them un-killable, gear =/= skill. The same reason an aimboter can take on an entire team of people and win every time with zero skill when 2 days prior that same kid couldn't even get 1 kill before the hacks. It's called abusing broken mechanics. To prove this, if you took that same 12 person group and ungrouped them, they would be killed within 5 seconds, because group buffs are beyond broken. Have you not read them?

ithehavok wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

ITT: Make everyone run Oakensoul

Advice: Stop stepping into their caltrops, this lowers your resists and makes you easy to kill. Stop letting them bait you into enclosed spaces so they can Dark Convergence bomb you, and stop being around people with less than 20k hp (or stop being that low HP person who gets everyone killed), or simply find ways to enjoy non-CP non-proc set play. Cyrodiil isn't the be-all end-all, especially for newer players, it's a harsh reality. Skill-based pvp doesn't exist in the 30 day campaign, only tactics win.

I'm not here talking about how OP group buffs because I'm dying to these ball groups. I am almost always the last person to die in most scenarios. Noticing and fixing issues is kind of my specialty and things that do not work make my head hurt. Why do I care that much? Who knows.

Sir, do you know what game this is?

Just play no CP/no procc. That should fix your issues.

@ithehavok
What buffs are you pointing at? Minor resolve, minor intellect, major resolve? Could you specify and in what way they are overpowered in a group? How would you technically from a programmers view remove buffs when players are grouped up, how big of a group will that start from, 2 players? Will it prevent them from casting skills that give buffs, class passives that give buffs?

Gear set make a big difference to how well you will play. If you lack resource regeneration you will not be able to use skills, if you lack damage you will not be able to kill someone healing themselves and so on. There is however a big portion of skill based gameplay involved, knowing when to roll dodge, when to block, when to burst, keeping your buffs up, what skill to use and when, line of sight and more. Denying that a players skill is necessary to perform well is like saying that training skating technique for ice hockey is useless, use better skates than your opponent and you will succeed. Knowing what tactic work and not is also a aquired skill.

Your mma and shooter analogy do not make sense since that is a literal rulebreak and it is not allowed and the person will be disqualified. You are saying that groups get too strong with buffs. See the difference? Females also feel pain when getting kicked in the groin

Player create builds that are better for solo and players create builds that work better in a group. Ofcourse if you use a group build as a solo player you will perform worse than if you used a solo build, that is why they would die easier if you lure them away from their group. It do not mean the lack skill or a worthless without their group.

If that group of 40 would have been as coordinated as the group of 12 they would have won. As in also buffing eachother, attacked at the same time, using siege etc.

Them: Just nerf purge and ball groups will disappear!
Me: That won't work, and when it doesn't, you'll just be back here asking for another nerf.
ZOS: *Introduces Plaguebreak*



Them: Just nerf crossheals and ball groups will disappear!
Me: That won't work, and when it doesn't, you'll just be back here asking for another nerf.
ZOS: *Nerfs crossheals*



Them: Just nerf group buffs and ball groups will disappear!
Me: :eyeroll:

The group buffs are not the issue. It is that the group is well organized and are playing together. As such, they have a huge advantage over larger disorganized groups that do their own thing.

It is how it should be.

Oh, in case it is unclear, my comment is NO, and I provided a valid reason as OP requested.

p00tx wrote: »

No. Not everyone wants to be a solo hero in PvP. It actually takes a pretty decent amount of skill to run a successful group. Also, I think we've suffered enough nerfs lately. Let's give it a little bit of a break please.

Most people don't want to admit this, but it takes an incredible amount of coordination for those ball groups to do what they do. Its annoying, but if you have tried to do it yourself, you would realize how much skill it actually takes to do that. Not just the group buffs, but the coordination in group movement, timing of ability usage, etc. If it wasn't for dark convergence being exploited in a way it was never intended to be used, the ball groups really wouldn't bother me that much.

On that note, I wish they would stop trying to create "Zerg breaker" sets and listen to me on this one. Siege is the best way to break up ball groups. Give us some sets that do some really nasty things to ball groups when we use siege against them, and make it so those sets do NOTHING for your combat abilities when not on siege, and there you go. Instant counter that isn't OP because it only works when your on siege, which has its own limitations (mobility, limited rate of attack, vulnerable to getting flanked, etc.).

Yakidafi wrote: »

@ithehavok
What buffs are you pointing at? Minor resolve, minor intellect, major resolve? Could you specify and in what way they are overpowered in a group? How would you technically from a programmers view remove buffs when players are grouped up, how big of a group will that start from, 2 players? Will it prevent them from casting skills that give buffs, class passives that give buffs?

Gear set make a big difference to how well you will play. If you lack resource regeneration you will not be able to use skills, if you lack damage you will not be able to kill someone healing themselves and so on. There is however a big portion of skill based gameplay involved, knowing when to roll dodge, when to block, when to burst, keeping your buffs up, what skill to use and when, line of sight and more. Denying that a players skill is necessary to perform well is like saying that training skating technique for ice hockey is useless, use better skates than your opponent and you will succeed. Knowing what tactic work and not is also a aquired skill.

Your mma and shooter analogy do not make sense since that is a literal rulebreak and it is not allowed and the person will be disqualified. You are saying that groups get too strong with buffs. See the difference? Females also feel pain when getting kicked in the groin

Player create builds that are better for solo and players create builds that work better in a group. Ofcourse if you use a group build as a solo player you will perform worse than if you used a solo build, that is why they would die easier if you lure them away from their group. It do not mean the lack skill or a worthless without their group.

If that group of 40 would have been as coordinated as the group of 12 they would have won. As in also buffing eachother, attacked at the same time, using siege etc.

Group buffs are buffs group members give to other group members like minor brutality(dk), sorcery(templar), toughness(warden), minor and major expedition(maneuver), courage and resolve(magma incarnate), major courage(olorime, spellpowercure), evasion(grossamrt)powerful assault, meteoriteous service, rallying cry, sanctuary, transmutation, wormkult, hircines veneer, ebon armory, synphonie of blades. A way to remove them would be to make players not receive them. Saying a 12 man group only can kill 40 randoms because they are more skilled is wrong, the buffs i listed give every player in group much higher stats than an ungrouped player and heal stacking gives them much higher healing then any player can get alone. And they have a leader, voice chat and communication, and they are grouped all the time, advantages ZoS can never take away and the only advantage organized groups need. And organized groups zerg solo players themselves, dont know why an each member of an organized group should also have higher stats than a solo player and more healing.

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Them: Just nerf purge and ball groups will disappear!
Me: That won't work, and when it doesn't, you'll just be back here asking for another nerf.
ZOS: *Introduces Plaguebreak*



Them: Just nerf crossheals and ball groups will disappear!
Me: That won't work, and when it doesn't, you'll just be back here asking for another nerf.
ZOS: *Nerfs crossheals*



Them: Just nerf group buffs and ball groups will disappear!
Me: :eyeroll:

Because plaguebreak makes purging deadly, Ball groups cant purge dots, curse, endless fury, Purifying light and debuffs can now dmg them. They only compensated by higher cross healing.
Zos didnt specifically nerfed cross healing and heal stacking. They nerfed most HoTs, also single Target and Self heals like dark cloak and resolving vigor, before they reverted nerf and buffed it insteat. Instant cross heals didnt get nerfed at all. And you still can stack as many HoTs as you have.

Sure the aberage organized group player is probably better than the average random, especially better than the average Zergling, coordination also requires skill, but they get carried very much by group buffs and heal stacking.

Honestly, if ZOS won't remove the group buffs, I'd like to see the range extended.

I wore Meritorious Service for my PVP guild raid and frequently wore it even while PUGing as a healer. My guildmates were good about staying within 10m. PUGs are not.

@Iriidius If 12 players use dawnbreaker at the same time and each deal 5k dmg after mitigation=60k dmg. If these group buff sets you talk about add about 1000 dmg to each players skill, then after we remove them they still deal 48k dmg. You will still be dead after they attacked you in a coordinated manner. Not to talk about they will all have replaced the group buff sets with individual buff sets.

They will still be able to crossheal eachother and they will continue to play coordinated and will still outmaneuver pugs in terms of teamplay.

Asking to remove buffs in pvp is like soz removing light attack weaving. Nothing will change, the top will still be at the top and the game will be less enjoyable.

ithehavok wrote: »

Group buffs are ridiculously overpowered to the point that 12 people can take on 40 and win, very easily.. for hours.. we've all seen It, it takes zero skill. let's ban together and ask Zeni to fix this. Simply remove group buffs for PVP. You should not be rewarded with OP buffs for ignoring the game mode (cyro specifically) and ignoring your team to run around and farm kills.

Show support by commenting a yes, or a no with a valid reason why you believe it should stay.

Facilitate the teamplay by nerfing teamplay elements? Where have I seen this line of thinking before... hmmm... can't be U35 with increase accessibility claim by ZOS who then nerfed dps which is a crucial element that allows people to access more difficult content and call it accessibility patch.