The Planemeld happened years after the formation of the Pact. What the Pact wants is to a) stop the daedric threat and b) prevent the Imperials to mess it up again. It's a 'So done with this [snip]', not a power grab.

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

Ok. Glad you enjoy The Pact. Hopefully you can see why I see it differently, and it's not because I'm ignoring your points.

I don't see how one can objectively see it unlikely or illogical - that's the only thing I really object to whenever this topic comes up. Nords and Dunmer took a strategically sound decision, given the shape Tamriel was in at the Pact's formation. Wolves at every door and all, may as well turn some into friends; though the Almalexia Variant still seems the most likely to me. Keshu on the other hand took a shot at the best hope Argonians had in a while in terms of Dunmer slavery, and for a decade, probably several in the end, that seemed to work out.

And then it didn't. A tragedy, but ultimately an understandable attempt. Verisimilitude is there for me, through that.

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

Ok. Glad you enjoy The Pact. Hopefully you can see why I see it differently, and it's not because I'm ignoring your points.

I don't see how one can objectively see it unlikely or illogical - that's the only thing I really object to whenever this topic comes up. Nords and Dunmer took a strategically sound decision, given the shape Tamriel was in at the Pact's formation. Wolves at every door and all, may as well turn some into friends; though the Almalexia Variant still seems the most likely to me. Keshu on the other hand took a shot at the best hope Argonians had in a while in terms of Dunmer slavery, and for a decade, probably several in the end, that seemed to work out.

And then it didn't. A tragedy, but ultimately an understandable attempt. Verisimilitude is there for me, through that.

Ultimately, I just can't rationalize the logic of negotiating with one's slavemasters, and I think history proves me right on that. TES history, of course ;]

I just can't respect that mindset and I find it inherently flawed. Slavery is not solved through negotiation. Its solved by killing your slave owners, dismantling the state that runs off slavery, and aligning yourself with abolitionists who will help bring about revolution. Otherwise you end up as second class citizens at best, or the status quo returns at worse.

The method imperials took was better imo. They didnt kill every ayleid they saw, but they made damned sure to dismantle their empire and replace it with their own. Their method had flaws too but at least it makes sense.

The idea of the oft oppressed argonians aligning with their slavemasters is gross to me and I simply can't get past it. I dont want to dwell on this but we keep getting locked in this argumentative circle.

So, if we could please move on from the "is it good writing" debate then that'd be great. I'm only still responding because I keep getting notifications.

Sorry if I'm getting stuck on this, but I like Keshu so I'm thinking through why she'd go for the Pact.

You don't have to accept that it was a good plan in hindsight. It wasn't. It just that it was the best plan that Keshu could come up with at the time that best accomplished her plans for Argonian society Otherwise we're saying she's naive or stupid...but she's clearly not given her presentation in the lore and in Blackwood. She's very competent as a General and Governor but idealistic, and history is filled with idealists who tried their best with what was available to them and didn't succeed.

Her ideal wasn't even that far-fetched. Keep the Dunmer off their back long enough for her very capable Black Fin Legion to become one of many legions, and suddenly the Dunmer slavers don't look so scary. But the other Argonian tribes weren't really interested in signing onto her vision for the future, and generally preferred to look to the Hist for things to sort themselves out in time, and that philosophical passivity meant that her plan didn't pan out.

She was never in Alessia's position to soundly defeat her oppressors and dictate terms afterwards, especially once we take into account the wider political situation in Tamriel. She might have beaten Dres in Stormhold and battered Indoril in the war with the Akaviri had she not saved them instead, but that is a far cry from killing all the slave owners and dismantling the state (of which ruling Almsivi still have the Tools of Lorkhan enabling them to see off simple threats). She never had that choice to begin with. Nor did she have a better choice to ally herself with the Dominion, lacking both a personal connection with their leadership and a common goal of self defense instead of putting a young Queen on the throne.

In contrast, when the Saxheel were in that position after the Hist helped them defeat the Oblivion Crisis and Red Year devastated Morrowind, that's exactly what they did. They smashed the Dunmer militarily and territorially until Redoran rallied. It's notable that by TES V, Helseth and House Hlaalu are completely out of power, but the emancipation they pushed through between TES 3 and 4 seems to still be in place. Presumably even the hardline traditionalists had to admit they got their butts kicked by the Saxheel and slavery was over.


Now what I do find gross is the way the Dunmer in Stonefalls respond to allying with the Argonians with continued distrust, racism, and a very one-way road approach to who's making sacrifices so that the Pact can succeed.

That's not something I blame Keshu for. In fact, I blame Almalexia and General Tanval Indoril for not setting a better example for how to treat the allies who saved their bacon. But then, the quests for those characters go out of their way to show that they aren't exactly completely good and heroic people. Almalexia is a villain with excellent publicity and Indoril isn't much better. But Keshu wouldn't know that at the time, either.

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

Ok. Glad you enjoy The Pact. Hopefully you can see why I see it differently, and it's not because I'm ignoring your points.

I don't see how one can objectively see it unlikely or illogical - that's the only thing I really object to whenever this topic comes up. Nords and Dunmer took a strategically sound decision, given the shape Tamriel was in at the Pact's formation. Wolves at every door and all, may as well turn some into friends; though the Almalexia Variant still seems the most likely to me. Keshu on the other hand took a shot at the best hope Argonians had in a while in terms of Dunmer slavery, and for a decade, probably several in the end, that seemed to work out.

And then it didn't. A tragedy, but ultimately an understandable attempt. Verisimilitude is there for me, through that.

Ultimately, I just can't rationalize the logic of negotiating with one's slavemasters, and I think history proves me right on that. TES history, of course ;]

I just can't respect that mindset and I find it inherently flawed. Slavery is not solved through negotiation. Its solved by killing your slave owners, dismantling the state that runs off slavery, and aligning yourself with abolitionists who will help bring about revolution. Otherwise you end up as second class citizens at best, or the status quo returns at worse.

The method imperials took was better imo. They didnt kill every ayleid they saw, but they made damned sure to dismantle their empire and replace it with their own. Their method had flaws too but at least it makes sense.

The idea of the oft oppressed argonians aligning with their slavemasters is gross to me and I simply can't get past it. I dont want to dwell on this but we keep getting locked in this argumentative circle.

So, if we could please move on from the "is it good writing" debate then that'd be great. I'm only still responding because I keep getting notifications.

Sorry if I'm getting stuck on this, but I like Keshu so I'm thinking through why she'd go for the Pact.

You don't have to accept that it was a good plan in hindsight. It wasn't. It just that it was the best plan that Keshu could come up with at the time that best accomplished her plans for Argonian society Otherwise we're saying she's naive or stupid...but she's clearly not given her presentation in the lore and in Blackwood. She's very competent as a General and Governor but idealistic, and history is filled with idealists who tried their best with what was available to them and didn't succeed.

Her ideal wasn't even that far-fetched. Keep the Dunmer off their back long enough for her very capable Black Fin Legion to become one of many legions, and suddenly the Dunmer slavers don't look so scary. But the other Argonian tribes weren't really interested in signing onto her vision for the future, and generally preferred to look to the Hist for things to sort themselves out in time, and that philosophical passivity meant that her plan didn't pan out.

She was never in Alessia's position to soundly defeat her oppressors and dictate terms afterwards, especially once we take into account the wider political situation in Tamriel. She might have beaten Dres in Stormhold and battered Indoril in the war with the Akaviri had she not saved them instead, but that is a far cry from killing all the slave owners and dismantling the state (of which ruling Almsivi still have the Tools of Lorkhan enabling them to see off simple threats). She never had that choice to begin with. Nor did she have a better choice to ally herself with the Dominion, lacking both a personal connection with their leadership and a common goal of self defense instead of putting a young Queen on the throne.

In contrast, when the Saxheel were in that position after the Hist helped them defeat the Oblivion Crisis and Red Year devastated Morrowind, that's exactly what they did. They smashed the Dunmer militarily and territorially until Redoran rallied. It's notable that by TES V, Helseth and House Hlaalu are completely out of power, but the emancipation they pushed through between TES 3 and 4 seems to still be in place. Presumably even the hardline traditionalists had to admit they got their butts kicked by the Saxheel and slavery was over.


Now what I do find gross is the way the Dunmer in Stonefalls respond to allying with the Argonians with continued distrust, racism, and a very one-way road approach to who's making sacrifices so that the Pact can succeed.

That's not something I blame Keshu for. In fact, I blame Almalexia and General Tanval Indoril for not setting a better example for how to treat the allies who saved their bacon. But then, the quests for those characters go out of their way to show that they aren't exactly completely good and heroic people. Almalexia is a villain with excellent publicity and Indoril isn't much better. But Keshu wouldn't know that at the time, either.

We're getting into dicey territory here so I'm stopping before I start citing *other* examples.

Keshu made a bad decision. Not even in hindsight. If that conflicts with her intelligence in other areas, then that either means she made a rare, grave error in judgement, or her intelligence is inconsistent. Dont blame me for that, blame whoever mandated that argonians join the pact.

You don't negotiate with slavers. You kill them, align with those who will help you kill them, and dismantle the government that allowed it. Anything less is complicit, and won't be effective long-term. How is that not obvious to any leader whose people are being enslaved?

You can't prove your "humanity" through "reason and logic". The kind of people who enslave others, and are evil enough to re-enslave them after they've proved their humanity can not be reasoned with. Sure, she didn't know the latter, but couldn't she make an educated guess based on the fact that so many dunmer in power still think she's less than them? You brought up examples yourself.

How do you reason with people who think you have no rights? With violence.

Keshu is aiding a nation that is still enslaving her people. The Telvanni and Dres "not being in the pact" doesn't matter. Morrowind is still Morrowind, Great Houses or not. It would be like if [insert country here] decided to abolish slavery, but [insert province or state here] decided not to participate, and the country as a whole is still reaping the economic benefits. Bethesda already made this point for me. Am I remembering that part wrong? Did Dres and Telvanni ban slavery? Are they enforcing that ban? Aren't they enslaving other beast folk? What, does she think the dunmer are gonna see Argonians as "the good ones" and leave them alone? If I'm remembering wrong then disregard this paragraph.

This is like in TES when the Empire was doing the same thing by allowing slavery in Morrowind. Wait, isn't this literally the point of "The Eastern Provinces Re-Examined?" It was evil then and evil now.

Regardless, Keshu is aiding a slave-nation on the promise that they'll stop enslaving her people. When it came to the akaviri war it made sense. Now, she's complicit in slavery. Sorry.

I'm done because this is obviously upsetting for me to analyze any deeper, and clearly I'm not changing anyone's mind here.

JonnAndCo wrote: »

And the groundwork has already been laid for that as well:

It seemed Prince Irnskar was taking a shine to Svana at the end of the Greymoor expansion, so reunification could be very near.