How Do You Think The Ebonheart Pact Will Collapse?

psychotrip

So the unfortunate thing about ESO being a prequel is knowing many of the factions and institutions we grow attached to will eventually fall apart.

But the Ebonheart Pact is especially intriguing to me, because of just how abrupt and intense its collapse will be. We know that in a few centuries (a single elven generation according to ESO lore) the Nords and Dunmer will go back to seeing each other as literal demons, and the argonians will be put back in chains or driven back to the swamps.

Believe it or not I find this ALMOST believable for dunmer and nords. I can see the Dunmer thinking they can use the nord's desire to conquer Cyrodiil to their advantage. Why the nords would accept Elven help is a little stranger to me, but that could also explain why the Pact will collapse in a relatively short period of time.

What I find MUCH harder to swallow is the situation between the Dunmer and the Argonians.

In just a few centuries, argonians will go back to being sub-human field slaves toiling away under the whips of the very people they helped to save time and time again.

While we obviously have the benefit of hindsight, it does leave me wondering if the Argonians got played by the Dunmer, why they believed they could trust their own slavemasters, and why they thought it was better to join the Pact instead of forming an alliance with any one other than slavers who are infamous for backstabbing and manipulation.

As for the Dunmer, it really does seem sociopathic, even for them, to just revert back to the status quo after repeatedly being shown that Argonians are, well, people. In TES3, you can explain away some of this due to ignorance. Most dunmer had only seen argonians as animalistic slaves, and one could assume the average dunmer legitimately thinks they're not people. But in light of ESO, it's downright cartoonish to think that the masses would just go back to seeing them as animals after everything they'd been through together.

Clearly the dunmer are capable of surviving without Argonian slaves, so it's even harder to justify their decision here. I think what really fascinates / frustrates me is that this will all happen within 2 dunmer generations at most.

Whether we like it or not, many of the same dunmer who were willing to abolish argonian slavery are the same people who will accept its reintroduction, reluctantly or otherwise. This is hard to accept, but that seems to be the reality of the Pact.

What I want to know is what you guys think about all this. Since we know the factions will collapse, how do you think it's going to happen? What will be the root cause of their decline? And, in light of it all, was it worth it to ally at all?

ToRelax

It always seemed to me that especially among the Dunmer elite, most do not view Argonians as people still. Argonians remain heavily disadvantaged even in pact controlled parts of Morrowind, so without institutional protection, it doesn't seem unfeasible for the wealthy, land-owning Dunmer to re-enslave them. Especially since a lot of them would probably still have the required infrastructure and personnel in place. The common Dunmer who weren't surrounded by slaves serving them all their lives wouldn't get much of a say in the matter.

VaranisArano

For one, it's only a few groups of Argonians who are working with the Pact. Many tribes don't, don't care, or think the Pact is a bad idea.

As for the Dunmer, the only reason some of the Houses gave up their Argonian slaves was because the Tribunal said so. Once the Tribunal says "Slavery's back on the menu, boys!" they'll fall all over themselves to start up the raiding parties
again (not that they ever entirely stopped).


I'm not sure it's cartoonish to revert so quickly. Is it really reverting when it's clear that many Dunmer haven't really changed?

I thought that Stonefalls did an excellent job of showing what some Dunmer think. Argonians sacrifice themselves to heal a blighted region and the Coral Heart and yet are ignored. At no point do Dunmer NPCs ever do anything half as good for Argonians. One of the top command, Walks-in-Ash, helps people who're injured by Tanval Indoril's antics, yet she's treated with suspicion. Pact soldiers are dispatched to put down a slave rebellion when a slave was whipped to death, but that's a-okay because the escaping slaves are khajiit.

The first time I played the Pact zones, it was with Varanis Arano and my SO's Argonian bard. Our refrain, quest after quest, was "Wow. Dunmer are jerks."

It's tempting to say the Dunmer should do better after everything they've been through together with the Argonians, but the overwhelming impression I got from Stonefalls is that's what the Argonians were hoping would happen. The Dunmer, on the other hand, are more like "What do you mean, "we?"" The sacrifices of the Argonians didn't make a dent in Dunmer arrogance.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for the Dunmer, the only reason some of the Houses gave up their Argonian slaves was because the Tribunal said so. Once the Tribunal says "Slavery's back on the menu, boys!" they'll fall all over themselves to start up the raiding parties
again (not that they ever entirely stopped).


I'm not sure it's cartoonish to revert so quickly. Is it really reverting when it's clear that many Dunmer haven't really changed?

Then why did any argonians align with them? You're kinda making my point here. The Dunmer (and especially the Tribunal) come off as objectively evil and duplicitous by doing this. The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

As for the Argonians that sided with the Dunmer...I dont even wanna think about what it's gonna be like for them.

For real though, the more you try to imagine this transition happening, the more disturbing it becomes.

ToRelax

psychotrip wrote: »

The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

There is no law against free Argonians existing in Morrowind, so I don't think soldiers would be tasked with re-enslaving them. Private slave hunter organizations still exist during the Pact. Given they can now openly raid the other alliances, possibly not even fewer in number. Many free Argonians would then start losing their precarious and underpaid enployment due to an resurgance of cheap slave labour, and either leave or find themselves in a vulnerable position to be enslaved again themselves.

After the war, most Dunmer would probably be contend with a return to normalcy. Not everyone - abolitionist Dunmer still exist in TES 3 - but even in our world, drastic changes in societal sentiment can happen within just a few years. Especially when most of the people who can influence the common narrative have a vested interest in that change.

psychotrip

ToRelax wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

There is no law against free Argonians existing in Morrowind, so I don't think soldiers would be tasked with re-enslaving them. Private slave hunter organizations still exist during the Pact. Given they can now openly raid the other alliances, possibly not even fewer in number. Many free Argonians would then start losing their precarious and underpaid enployment due to an resurgance of cheap slave labour, and either leave or find themselves in a vulnerable position to be enslaved again themselves.

Unless you're an absolutely selfish argonian, I fail to see the real difference here. How would any of the argonians feel seeing their own people reduced to sub-human slaves after all their hard work for the pact? It just leaves me wondering if, lore-wise, the Pact was even a smart idea for Argonians to begin with. They seem to just be getting used, and from what I remember of the Stonefalls questline that Varanis brought up, the dunmer really dont make a good case for themselves. Why are they even still allies? It seems they should've just left after the Akaviri invasion.

After the war, most Dunmer would probably be contend with a return to normalcy.

Jeez. ESO makes it really hard to like the races, sometimes...I really would've liked to think the Dunmer weren't THAT evil.

ToRelax

psychotrip wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

There is no law against free Argonians existing in Morrowind, so I don't think soldiers would be tasked with re-enslaving them. Private slave hunter organizations still exist during the Pact. Given they can now openly raid the other alliances, possibly not even fewer in number. Many free Argonians would then start losing their precarious and underpaid enployment due to an resurgance of cheap slave labour, and either leave or find themselves in a vulnerable position to be enslaved again themselves.

Unless you're an absolutely selfish argonian, I fail to see the real difference here. How would any of the argonians feel seeing their own people reduced to sub-human slaves after all their hard work for the pact? It just leaves me wondering if, lore-wise, the Pact was even a smart idea for Argonians to begin with. They seem to just be getting used, and from what I remember of the Stonefalls questline that Varanis brought up, the dunmer really dont make a good case for themselves. Why are they even still allies? It seems they should've just left after the Akaviri invasion.

I don't think the Argonians allying the Dunmer is well justified from their perspective - they did it for gameplay reasons. I just don't think things mostly reverting to how they were before is so unbelievable, without requiring Dunmer to be inherently more evil than other peoples.

psychotrip

ToRelax wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

There is no law against free Argonians existing in Morrowind, so I don't think soldiers would be tasked with re-enslaving them. Private slave hunter organizations still exist during the Pact. Given they can now openly raid the other alliances, possibly not even fewer in number. Many free Argonians would then start losing their precarious and underpaid enployment due to an resurgance of cheap slave labour, and either leave or find themselves in a vulnerable position to be enslaved again themselves.

Unless you're an absolutely selfish argonian, I fail to see the real difference here. How would any of the argonians feel seeing their own people reduced to sub-human slaves after all their hard work for the pact? It just leaves me wondering if, lore-wise, the Pact was even a smart idea for Argonians to begin with. They seem to just be getting used, and from what I remember of the Stonefalls questline that Varanis brought up, the dunmer really dont make a good case for themselves. Why are they even still allies? It seems they should've just left after the Akaviri invasion.

I don't think the Argonians allying the Dunmer is well justified from their perspective - they did it for gameplay reasons. I just don't think things mostly reverting to how they were before is so unbelievable, without requiring Dunmer to be inherently more evil than other peoples.

But it does, doesn't it? Like, how does it not?

We're talking about a single generation of people fighting side by side with argonians, strategizing together, dying together on the battlefield, being forced to see them as intelligent people instead of sub-sentient animals...only to all collectively betray them and put their people back in chains, despite all the proof in front of them that Argonians are valuable allies and friends.

If any race in ESO is worse than that, then that's more of an indictment on the writing than an absolution of the dunmer.

ToRelax

psychotrip wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

There is no law against free Argonians existing in Morrowind, so I don't think soldiers would be tasked with re-enslaving them. Private slave hunter organizations still exist during the Pact. Given they can now openly raid the other alliances, possibly not even fewer in number. Many free Argonians would then start losing their precarious and underpaid enployment due to an resurgance of cheap slave labour, and either leave or find themselves in a vulnerable position to be enslaved again themselves.

Unless you're an absolutely selfish argonian, I fail to see the real difference here. How would any of the argonians feel seeing their own people reduced to sub-human slaves after all their hard work for the pact? It just leaves me wondering if, lore-wise, the Pact was even a smart idea for Argonians to begin with. They seem to just be getting used, and from what I remember of the Stonefalls questline that Varanis brought up, the dunmer really dont make a good case for themselves. Why are they even still allies? It seems they should've just left after the Akaviri invasion.

I don't think the Argonians allying the Dunmer is well justified from their perspective - they did it for gameplay reasons. I just don't think things mostly reverting to how they were before is so unbelievable, without requiring Dunmer to be inherently more evil than other peoples.

But it does, doesn't it? Like, how does it not?

We're talking about a single generation of people fighting side by side with argonians, strategizing together, dying together on the battlefield, being forced to see them as intelligent people instead of sub-sentient animals...only to all collectively betray them and put their people back in chains, despite all the proof in front of them that Argonians are valuable allies and friends.

If any race in ESO is worse than that, then that's more of an indictment on the writing than an absolution of the dunmer.

The Dunmer soldiers have loyalties to their great houses which are dominated by people who don't view Argonians as fully human, let alone elven, and who only ever cooperated with them at the tribunal's behest. Since these common soldiers also don't have much individual social or economic power, such spread loyalties could easily mean they'll just go along with whatever their house decides. Humans can get pretty nasty towards supposed friends when their loaylties are tested, and these are actual different species we're talking about, not just the "races" humans like to think up.

psychotrip

ToRelax wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

There is no law against free Argonians existing in Morrowind, so I don't think soldiers would be tasked with re-enslaving them. Private slave hunter organizations still exist during the Pact. Given they can now openly raid the other alliances, possibly not even fewer in number. Many free Argonians would then start losing their precarious and underpaid enployment due to an resurgance of cheap slave labour, and either leave or find themselves in a vulnerable position to be enslaved again themselves.

Unless you're an absolutely selfish argonian, I fail to see the real difference here. How would any of the argonians feel seeing their own people reduced to sub-human slaves after all their hard work for the pact? It just leaves me wondering if, lore-wise, the Pact was even a smart idea for Argonians to begin with. They seem to just be getting used, and from what I remember of the Stonefalls questline that Varanis brought up, the dunmer really dont make a good case for themselves. Why are they even still allies? It seems they should've just left after the Akaviri invasion.

I don't think the Argonians allying the Dunmer is well justified from their perspective - they did it for gameplay reasons. I just don't think things mostly reverting to how they were before is so unbelievable, without requiring Dunmer to be inherently more evil than other peoples.

But it does, doesn't it? Like, how does it not?

We're talking about a single generation of people fighting side by side with argonians, strategizing together, dying together on the battlefield, being forced to see them as intelligent people instead of sub-sentient animals...only to all collectively betray them and put their people back in chains, despite all the proof in front of them that Argonians are valuable allies and friends.

If any race in ESO is worse than that, then that's more of an indictment on the writing than an absolution of the dunmer.

The Dunmer soldiers have loyalties to their great houses which are dominated by people who don't view Argonians as fully human, let alone elven, and who only ever cooperated with them at the tribunal's behest. Since these common soldiers also don't have much individual social or economic power, such spread loyalties could easily mean they'll just go along with whatever their house decides. Humans can get pretty nasty towards supposed friends when their loaylties are tested, and these are actual different species we're talking about, not just the "races" humans like to think up.

Yeah, and any time humans have done what the dunmer have, they've been objectively evil as well. Anyone who just "goes along with it" as you describe is irredeemable. It's one thing for the masses and soldiers to be ignorant of the humanity of "their" slaves. But freeing your slaves, convincing them to go to war for you, only to put them back in chains within your same lifetime, is kind of unforgivable in any context.

The idea that the vast majority of dunmer are either evil enough, or weak willed enough to, to go along with this en masse says a LOT about them, or at least how ESO views them.

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for the Dunmer, the only reason some of the Houses gave up their Argonian slaves was because the Tribunal said so. Once the Tribunal says "Slavery's back on the menu, boys!" they'll fall all over themselves to start up the raiding parties
again (not that they ever entirely stopped).


I'm not sure it's cartoonish to revert so quickly. Is it really reverting when it's clear that many Dunmer haven't really changed?

Then why did any argonians align with them? You're kinda making my point here. The Dunmer (and especially the Tribunal) come off as objectively evil and duplicitous by doing this. The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

As for the Argonians that sided with the Dunmer...I dont even wanna think about what it's gonna be like for them.

For real though, the more you try to imagine this transition happening, the more disturbing it becomes.

I'd like to preface any continuing discussion with this: ZOS needed three alliances for their PVP Realm vRealm vRealm mode. AD is a historical alliance in the lore, the Daggerfall Covenant at least has geography in common, and that leaves the hereditary enemies of Dunmer, Nords, and Argonians to get smushed together. The Pact is ludicrous. Yet it's Canon, so I'm going to take it seriously according to what canon lore says about it.

If this is all an axe-grinding session about how ludicrous the Pact is, I already know. Too bad, it's canon now.

Also, wall o' text coming. Sorry.

...................

Yes, it's very disturbing to think about what's going to happen to the Argonians when the Pact dissolves. It is a tragedy.

But we know it happens. So it's clear that no matter what individual Dunmer feel about it, it doesn't make a difference in the big picture. Slavery is back on until the last years of the 3rd Era.


Yes, this does paint plenty of Dunmer as objectively evil and duplicitous.

I'm sorry, but I don't expect a culture that split from the Aldmer to worship the gods of lies, sex, plots, prophecies, and murder to be pleasant people. The Dunmer in ESO haven't stopped enslaving people. Okay, there's some Vvardenfell propaganda that say the Pact has, but there's more quests in the Pact zones that say they haven't stopped enslaving non-Argonians and war prisoners. The Dunmer of Morrowind are racist, nationalist, xenophobic slavers - or at the very least raised in a culture that values those qualities. That's consistent from TES 3 to ESO, and the only difference in their portrayal in Skyrim is that the Dunmer have had stopped taking slaves after having some of the stuffing kicked out of them by the Argonians and the Tribunal's obvious failure.

I repeat my refrain, "Wow. Dunmer are jerks." (I'd say worse, but you know, the mods might not appreciate it.) As a Dunmer fan myself, I feel like there are way too many TES fans who forget that "fan-favorite protagonist" does not equal "objectively good guy."

The Tribunal...I'm sorry again, but they are objectively evil and duplicitous people with excellent publicity. That was kind of the point of TES 3 and the Tribunal DLC, and we see that again in their ESO appearances.

Frankly, I don't think they care if a relative few Dunmer get cold feet. Any organized rebellion will be crushed by the Three Living Gods of Morrowind at the height of their power and the military/economic might of the Houses that are happy to go back to full slavery (Which is all of them; Hlaalu and Dres have big plantations, Indoril likely does and they'll do what the Tribunal says, and let's not forget that Redoran had a big slave market in Balmora. They are all rotten to the core .)



As for why some Argonians sided with the Pact, this is also well established in the Pact zones and the lore.

There are several Pact-aligned Argonians who want to push for a more advanced Saxheel society similar to the one that was capable of erecting the Xanmeers. But in order to do so, they need a period of relative peace in Black Marsh where they can build up their defenses/armies where they aren't being raided. To that end, they assist the Nords and Dunmer in fighting against the Akaviri, create a defensive Pact, and thus guarantee the security of Black Marsh as long as the Pact survives.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heita-Meen
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Keshu
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Walks-in-Ash

It doesn't end up working out in the long run, but that's not because Keshu and the others are stupid to form the Pact. Rather as we've seen in successive Argonian content like Murkmire and Blackwood, most Argonians simply aren't interested in having a more advanced society than they already have. So even though the Pact is partially successful in ending most slaver raids and protecting the Hist from Dominion invasion, there's just not a lot of grass-roots support from the many different Black Marsh tribes that it would take to capitalize on that period of peace to advance their civilization to the point that they could withstand the inevitable dissolution of the Pact.

The Pact-aligned Argonians weren't stupid. They knew the Pact wasn't going to last, and basically gambled that they could keep it going long enough to advance Black Marsh enough that they could defend themselves after it fell apart. They lost the gamble, mostly because so many tribes just didn't share their goals.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for the Dunmer, the only reason some of the Houses gave up their Argonian slaves was because the Tribunal said so. Once the Tribunal says "Slavery's back on the menu, boys!" they'll fall all over themselves to start up the raiding parties
again (not that they ever entirely stopped).


I'm not sure it's cartoonish to revert so quickly. Is it really reverting when it's clear that many Dunmer haven't really changed?

Then why did any argonians align with them? You're kinda making my point here. The Dunmer (and especially the Tribunal) come off as objectively evil and duplicitous by doing this. The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

As for the Argonians that sided with the Dunmer...I dont even wanna think about what it's gonna be like for them.

For real though, the more you try to imagine this transition happening, the more disturbing it becomes.

I'd like to preface any continuing discussion with this: ZOS needed three alliances for their PVP Realm vRealm vRealm mode. AD is a historical alliance in the lore, the Daggerfall Covenant at least has geography in common, and that leaves the hereditary enemies of Dunmer, Nords, and Argonians to get smushed together. The Pact is ludicrous. Yet it's Canon, so I'm going to take it seriously according to what canon lore says about it.

If this is all an axe-grinding session about how ludicrous the Pact is, I already know. Too bad, it's canon now.

Also, wall o' text coming. Sorry.

...................

Yes, it's very disturbing to think about what's going to happen to the Argonians when the Pact dissolves. It is a tragedy.

But we know it happens. So it's clear that no matter what individual Dunmer feel about it, it doesn't make a difference in the big picture. Slavery is back on until the last years of the 3rd Era.


Yes, this does paint plenty of Dunmer as objectively evil and duplicitous.

I'm sorry, but I don't expect a culture that split from the Aldmer to worship the gods of lies, sex, plots, prophecies, and murder to be pleasant people. The Dunmer in ESO haven't stopped enslaving people. Okay, there's some Vvardenfell propaganda that say the Pact has, but there's more quests in the Pact zones that say they haven't stopped enslaving non-Argonians and war prisoners. The Dunmer of Morrowind are racist, nationalist, xenophobic slavers - or at the very least raised in a culture that values those qualities. That's consistent from TES 3 to ESO, and the only difference in their portrayal in Skyrim is that the Dunmer have had stopped taking slaves after having some of the stuffing kicked out of them by the Argonians and the Tribunal's obvious failure.

I repeat my refrain, "Wow. Dunmer are jerks." (I'd say worse, but you know, the mods might not appreciate it.) As a Dunmer fan myself, I feel like there are way too many TES fans who forget that "fan-favorite protagonist" does not equal "objectively good guy."

The Tribunal...I'm sorry again, but they are objectively evil and duplicitous people with excellent publicity. That was kind of the point of TES 3 and the Tribunal DLC, and we see that again in their ESO appearances.

Frankly, I don't think they care if a relative few Dunmer get cold feet. Any organized rebellion will be crushed by the Three Living Gods of Morrowind at the height of their power and the military/economic might of the Houses that are happy to go back to full slavery (Which is all of them; Hlaalu and Dres have big plantations, Indoril likely does and they'll do what the Tribunal says, and let's not forget that Redoran had a big slave market in Balmora. They are all rotten to the core .)



As for why some Argonians sided with the Pact, this is also well established in the Pact zones and the lore.

There are several Pact-aligned Argonians who want to push for a more advanced Saxheel society similar to the one that was capable of erecting the Xanmeers. But in order to do so, they need a period of relative peace in Black Marsh where they can build up their defenses/armies where they aren't being raided. To that end, they assist the Nords and Dunmer in fighting against the Akaviri, create a defensive Pact, and thus guarantee the security of Black Marsh as long as the Pact survives.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heita-Meen
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Keshu
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Walks-in-Ash

It doesn't end up working out in the long run, but that's not because Keshu and the others are stupid to form the Pact. Rather as we've seen in successive Argonian content like Murkmire and Blackwood, most Argonians simply aren't interested in having a more advanced society than they already have. So even though the Pact is partially successful in ending most slaver raids and protecting the Hist from Dominion invasion, there's just not a lot of grass-roots support from the many different Black Marsh tribes that it would take to capitalize on that period of peace to advance their civilization to the point that they could withstand the inevitable dissolution of the Pact.

The Pact-aligned Argonians weren't stupid. They knew the Pact wasn't going to last, and basically gambled that they could keep it going long enough to advance Black Marsh enough that they could defend themselves after it fell apart. They lost the gamble, mostly because so many tribes just didn't share their goals.

Well articulated points, as usual. Glad we both agree that the pact exists to justify a convenient 3 faction war. Thats kind of the original sin of this game imo. I would've been happy with arena pvp and some specific, lore-appropriate battlegrounds. Instead they pushed the franchise in a direction no one asked for, and didn't even do it well *laughs in Cyrodiil*.

I cant argue with your points about the dunmer. As you know the Altmer and Redguards are my favorites (both less so now thanks to ESO) so bias isnt my issue here. My issue isnt that the dunmer are "bad guys". It's how hollow, pointless, even nihilistic their "badness" has become.

TES3 paints them in a negative light, but they also paint the empire in a negative light. Both were perceived as deeply broken societies that MAY be worth saving.

I dont want to save the dunmer anymore.

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for the Dunmer, the only reason some of the Houses gave up their Argonian slaves was because the Tribunal said so. Once the Tribunal says "Slavery's back on the menu, boys!" they'll fall all over themselves to start up the raiding parties
again (not that they ever entirely stopped).


I'm not sure it's cartoonish to revert so quickly. Is it really reverting when it's clear that many Dunmer haven't really changed?

Then why did any argonians align with them? You're kinda making my point here. The Dunmer (and especially the Tribunal) come off as objectively evil and duplicitous by doing this. The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

As for the Argonians that sided with the Dunmer...I dont even wanna think about what it's gonna be like for them.

For real though, the more you try to imagine this transition happening, the more disturbing it becomes.

I'd like to preface any continuing discussion with this: ZOS needed three alliances for their PVP Realm vRealm vRealm mode. AD is a historical alliance in the lore, the Daggerfall Covenant at least has geography in common, and that leaves the hereditary enemies of Dunmer, Nords, and Argonians to get smushed together. The Pact is ludicrous. Yet it's Canon, so I'm going to take it seriously according to what canon lore says about it.

If this is all an axe-grinding session about how ludicrous the Pact is, I already know. Too bad, it's canon now.

Also, wall o' text coming. Sorry.

...................

Yes, it's very disturbing to think about what's going to happen to the Argonians when the Pact dissolves. It is a tragedy.

But we know it happens. So it's clear that no matter what individual Dunmer feel about it, it doesn't make a difference in the big picture. Slavery is back on until the last years of the 3rd Era.


Yes, this does paint plenty of Dunmer as objectively evil and duplicitous.

I'm sorry, but I don't expect a culture that split from the Aldmer to worship the gods of lies, sex, plots, prophecies, and murder to be pleasant people. The Dunmer in ESO haven't stopped enslaving people. Okay, there's some Vvardenfell propaganda that say the Pact has, but there's more quests in the Pact zones that say they haven't stopped enslaving non-Argonians and war prisoners. The Dunmer of Morrowind are racist, nationalist, xenophobic slavers - or at the very least raised in a culture that values those qualities. That's consistent from TES 3 to ESO, and the only difference in their portrayal in Skyrim is that the Dunmer have had stopped taking slaves after having some of the stuffing kicked out of them by the Argonians and the Tribunal's obvious failure.

I repeat my refrain, "Wow. Dunmer are jerks." (I'd say worse, but you know, the mods might not appreciate it.) As a Dunmer fan myself, I feel like there are way too many TES fans who forget that "fan-favorite protagonist" does not equal "objectively good guy."

The Tribunal...I'm sorry again, but they are objectively evil and duplicitous people with excellent publicity. That was kind of the point of TES 3 and the Tribunal DLC, and we see that again in their ESO appearances.

Frankly, I don't think they care if a relative few Dunmer get cold feet. Any organized rebellion will be crushed by the Three Living Gods of Morrowind at the height of their power and the military/economic might of the Houses that are happy to go back to full slavery (Which is all of them; Hlaalu and Dres have big plantations, Indoril likely does and they'll do what the Tribunal says, and let's not forget that Redoran had a big slave market in Balmora. They are all rotten to the core .)



As for why some Argonians sided with the Pact, this is also well established in the Pact zones and the lore.

There are several Pact-aligned Argonians who want to push for a more advanced Saxheel society similar to the one that was capable of erecting the Xanmeers. But in order to do so, they need a period of relative peace in Black Marsh where they can build up their defenses/armies where they aren't being raided. To that end, they assist the Nords and Dunmer in fighting against the Akaviri, create a defensive Pact, and thus guarantee the security of Black Marsh as long as the Pact survives.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heita-Meen
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Keshu
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Walks-in-Ash

It doesn't end up working out in the long run, but that's not because Keshu and the others are stupid to form the Pact. Rather as we've seen in successive Argonian content like Murkmire and Blackwood, most Argonians simply aren't interested in having a more advanced society than they already have. So even though the Pact is partially successful in ending most slaver raids and protecting the Hist from Dominion invasion, there's just not a lot of grass-roots support from the many different Black Marsh tribes that it would take to capitalize on that period of peace to advance their civilization to the point that they could withstand the inevitable dissolution of the Pact.

The Pact-aligned Argonians weren't stupid. They knew the Pact wasn't going to last, and basically gambled that they could keep it going long enough to advance Black Marsh enough that they could defend themselves after it fell apart. They lost the gamble, mostly because so many tribes just didn't share their goals.

Well articulated points, as usual. Glad we both agree that the pact exists to justify a convenient 3 faction war. Thats kind of the original sin of this game imo. I would've been happy with arena pvp and some specific, lore-appropriate battlegrounds. Instead they pushed the franchise in a direction no one asked for, and didn't even do it well *laughs in Cyrodiil*.

I cant argue with your points about the dunmer. As you know the Altmer and Redguards are my favorites (both less so now thanks to ESO) so bias isnt my issue here. My issue isnt that the dunmer are "bad guys". It's how hollow, pointless, even nihilistic their "badness" has become.

TES3 paints them in a negative light, but they also paint the empire in a negative light. Both were perceived as deeply broken societies that MAY be worth saving.

I dont want to save the dunmer anymore.

For what it's worth, my Dunmer Vestige winds up in the same depressing boat. My headcanon is that she dies in the course of rebelling against the Tribunal once they reinstate slavery. They basically erase her name from the records in retaliation.

My Dunmer Nerevarine was a little more hopeful about saving them up until Almalexia killed Sotha Sil and tried to frame her for the murder in order to retain her godhood a little longer rather than taking proactive action about Red Year. She saw the writing on the wall and scooted off to Akavir before someone else tried to make her the scapegoat.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for the Dunmer, the only reason some of the Houses gave up their Argonian slaves was because the Tribunal said so. Once the Tribunal says "Slavery's back on the menu, boys!" they'll fall all over themselves to start up the raiding parties
again (not that they ever entirely stopped).


I'm not sure it's cartoonish to revert so quickly. Is it really reverting when it's clear that many Dunmer haven't really changed?

Then why did any argonians align with them? You're kinda making my point here. The Dunmer (and especially the Tribunal) come off as objectively evil and duplicitous by doing this. The idea that countless adventurers, soldiers, and all the commoners living and fighting alongside the argonians will just accept tossing their comrades back to the slave pits is...disturbing to say the least. Reluctantly or not, it doesnt make it any less sick.

Its not like the Tribunal control the dunmer's minds, either. We had an entire game about what happens when people begin to question the Temple's legitimacy. You'd think the Tribunal would be a lot more sensitive to the fact that many of their own soldiers fought side by side with the very people they're being forced to put back into chains. What must that be like for both parties?

As for the Argonians that sided with the Dunmer...I dont even wanna think about what it's gonna be like for them.

For real though, the more you try to imagine this transition happening, the more disturbing it becomes.

I'd like to preface any continuing discussion with this: ZOS needed three alliances for their PVP Realm vRealm vRealm mode. AD is a historical alliance in the lore, the Daggerfall Covenant at least has geography in common, and that leaves the hereditary enemies of Dunmer, Nords, and Argonians to get smushed together. The Pact is ludicrous. Yet it's Canon, so I'm going to take it seriously according to what canon lore says about it.

If this is all an axe-grinding session about how ludicrous the Pact is, I already know. Too bad, it's canon now.

Also, wall o' text coming. Sorry.

...................

Yes, it's very disturbing to think about what's going to happen to the Argonians when the Pact dissolves. It is a tragedy.

But we know it happens. So it's clear that no matter what individual Dunmer feel about it, it doesn't make a difference in the big picture. Slavery is back on until the last years of the 3rd Era.


Yes, this does paint plenty of Dunmer as objectively evil and duplicitous.

I'm sorry, but I don't expect a culture that split from the Aldmer to worship the gods of lies, sex, plots, prophecies, and murder to be pleasant people. The Dunmer in ESO haven't stopped enslaving people. Okay, there's some Vvardenfell propaganda that say the Pact has, but there's more quests in the Pact zones that say they haven't stopped enslaving non-Argonians and war prisoners. The Dunmer of Morrowind are racist, nationalist, xenophobic slavers - or at the very least raised in a culture that values those qualities. That's consistent from TES 3 to ESO, and the only difference in their portrayal in Skyrim is that the Dunmer have had stopped taking slaves after having some of the stuffing kicked out of them by the Argonians and the Tribunal's obvious failure.

I repeat my refrain, "Wow. Dunmer are jerks." (I'd say worse, but you know, the mods might not appreciate it.) As a Dunmer fan myself, I feel like there are way too many TES fans who forget that "fan-favorite protagonist" does not equal "objectively good guy."

The Tribunal...I'm sorry again, but they are objectively evil and duplicitous people with excellent publicity. That was kind of the point of TES 3 and the Tribunal DLC, and we see that again in their ESO appearances.

Frankly, I don't think they care if a relative few Dunmer get cold feet. Any organized rebellion will be crushed by the Three Living Gods of Morrowind at the height of their power and the military/economic might of the Houses that are happy to go back to full slavery (Which is all of them; Hlaalu and Dres have big plantations, Indoril likely does and they'll do what the Tribunal says, and let's not forget that Redoran had a big slave market in Balmora. They are all rotten to the core .)



As for why some Argonians sided with the Pact, this is also well established in the Pact zones and the lore.

There are several Pact-aligned Argonians who want to push for a more advanced Saxheel society similar to the one that was capable of erecting the Xanmeers. But in order to do so, they need a period of relative peace in Black Marsh where they can build up their defenses/armies where they aren't being raided. To that end, they assist the Nords and Dunmer in fighting against the Akaviri, create a defensive Pact, and thus guarantee the security of Black Marsh as long as the Pact survives.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heita-Meen
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Keshu
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Walks-in-Ash

It doesn't end up working out in the long run, but that's not because Keshu and the others are stupid to form the Pact. Rather as we've seen in successive Argonian content like Murkmire and Blackwood, most Argonians simply aren't interested in having a more advanced society than they already have. So even though the Pact is partially successful in ending most slaver raids and protecting the Hist from Dominion invasion, there's just not a lot of grass-roots support from the many different Black Marsh tribes that it would take to capitalize on that period of peace to advance their civilization to the point that they could withstand the inevitable dissolution of the Pact.

The Pact-aligned Argonians weren't stupid. They knew the Pact wasn't going to last, and basically gambled that they could keep it going long enough to advance Black Marsh enough that they could defend themselves after it fell apart. They lost the gamble, mostly because so many tribes just didn't share their goals.

Well articulated points, as usual. Glad we both agree that the pact exists to justify a convenient 3 faction war. Thats kind of the original sin of this game imo. I would've been happy with arena pvp and some specific, lore-appropriate battlegrounds. Instead they pushed the franchise in a direction no one asked for, and didn't even do it well *laughs in Cyrodiil*.

I cant argue with your points about the dunmer. As you know the Altmer and Redguards are my favorites (both less so now thanks to ESO) so bias isnt my issue here. My issue isnt that the dunmer are "bad guys". It's how hollow, pointless, even nihilistic their "badness" has become.

TES3 paints them in a negative light, but they also paint the empire in a negative light. Both were perceived as deeply broken societies that MAY be worth saving.

I dont want to save the dunmer anymore.

For what it's worth, my Dunmer Vestige winds up in the same depressing boat. My headcanon is that she dies in the course of rebelling against the Tribunal once they reinstate slavery. They basically erase her name from the records in retaliation.

My Dunmer Nerevarine was a little more hopeful about saving them up until Almalexia killed Sotha Sil and tried to frame her for the murder in order to retain her godhood a little longer rather than taking proactive action about Red Year. She saw the writing on the wall and scooted off to Akavir before someone else tried to make her the scapegoat.

See in TES 3 we see the GODS fail, but I still felt hope for the people. The dunmer's spirituality isnt inherently evil. They're trying to follow the Psijic endeavor and transcend mortality by testing / challenging themselves. That's a worldview worth saving, imo. Its the details that led them astray, and the tribunal who coaxed them into passive, easier lives.

The existence of the Ebonheart Pact in their past makes the dunmer much less likable and redeemable for me. It's just sad.

Oakenaxe

Assuming that we are in the same timeline of the other games (there is always the possibility of a Dragon Break), they will begin to fall when Cuhlecain comes into play and will be finally buried after Tiber Septim ascends (we can say their demise will come from a "fourth faction" of Nords/Bretons, so to speak).

Clearly the dunmer are capable of surviving without Argonian slaves, so it's even harder to justify their decision here. I think what really fascinates / frustrates me is that this will all happen within 2 dunmer generations at most.

Whether we like it or not, many of the same dunmer who were willing to abolish argonian slavery are the same people who will accept its reintroduction, reluctantly or otherwise.

- The step towards abolishment is/was very recent and still disliked by many, it doesn't surprise me that it might fall as quickly as it rose. But that doesn't mean it had no effects, maybe (assuming that we are in the same timeline) the ideology of the Pact is what sparkled movements such as the Twin Lamps!

Then why did any argonians align with them?

- The Hist commanded. Larger forces were/are in play. Who knows what could have happened if the Akaviri weren't successfully defeated?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr1zImBSLc4&t=96s
:')

psychotrip

Oakenaxe wrote: »

Assuming that we are in the same timeline of the other games (there is always the possibility of a Dragon Break), they will begin to fall when Cuhlecain comes into play and will be finally buried after Tiber Septim ascends (we can say their demise will come from a "fourth faction" of Nords/Bretons, so to speak).

Clearly the dunmer are capable of surviving without Argonian slaves, so it's even harder to justify their decision here. I think what really fascinates / frustrates me is that this will all happen within 2 dunmer generations at most.

Whether we like it or not, many of the same dunmer who were willing to abolish argonian slavery are the same people who will accept its reintroduction, reluctantly or otherwise.

- The step towards abolishment is/was very recent and still disliked by many, it doesn't surprise me that it might fall as quickly as it rose. But that doesn't mean it had no effects, maybe (assuming that we are in the same timeline) the ideology of the Pact is what sparkled movements such as the Twin Lamps!

Then why did any argonians align with them?

- The Hist commanded. Larger forces were/are in play. Who knows what could have happened if the Akaviri weren't successfully defeated?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr1zImBSLc4&t=96s
:')

"Because the hist" has to be the new "because a wizard did it". Eventually it just becomes an excuse for bad writing.

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

Oakenaxe wrote: »

Assuming that we are in the same timeline of the other games (there is always the possibility of a Dragon Break), they will begin to fall when Cuhlecain comes into play and will be finally buried after Tiber Septim ascends (we can say their demise will come from a "fourth faction" of Nords/Bretons, so to speak).

Clearly the dunmer are capable of surviving without Argonian slaves, so it's even harder to justify their decision here. I think what really fascinates / frustrates me is that this will all happen within 2 dunmer generations at most.

Whether we like it or not, many of the same dunmer who were willing to abolish argonian slavery are the same people who will accept its reintroduction, reluctantly or otherwise.

- The step towards abolishment is/was very recent and still disliked by many, it doesn't surprise me that it might fall as quickly as it rose. But that doesn't mean it had no effects, maybe (assuming that we are in the same timeline) the ideology of the Pact is what sparkled movements such as the Twin Lamps!

Then why did any argonians align with them?

- The Hist commanded. Larger forces were/are in play. Who knows what could have happened if the Akaviri weren't successfully defeated?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr1zImBSLc4&t=96s
:')

"Because the hist" has to be the new "because a wizard did it". Eventually it just becomes an excuse for bad writing.

There's more to it than that. The Hist gave Heita-Meen the impetus to go rescue the Nords and Dunmer when they were fighting the Akaviri. But saving them and leveraging that into forming the Pact that also served her goals for what she saw as the future of Argonian civilization.

So yeah, the Hist may have pushed her to do it, but in context, it comes off as more of an encouragement to go do what she was going to do anyway.

It's also worth noting that within the scope of ESO, the Hist may have been foreseeing more issues with the coming wars. Black Marsh isn't as impenetrable as some or the older lore would suggest (the perils of actually getting to see the zone instead of merely reading about it), and it's entirely possible that a neutral Shadowfen could not have defended itself from the Dominion trying to invade Morrowind from the south and Dunmer raids, and the invasion from Coldharbor, and hostile non-Hist worshipping tribes (like the Sul-Xan in Blackwood). The Pact or at least the Pact Vestige does an awful lot to help the Hist in Shadowfen.

Honestly, it would have been even more of a "the Hist did it" if they'd copied the Oblivion Crisis and rallied the Argonians to just kick daedric butt. That just doesn't work in a game that's featuring all nine races.

Though now I'm half considering a conspiracy theory in which the Argonians joining the Pact was all a long con by the other Hist to send the Pact Vestige into Coldharbor to help resolve the dilemma concerning the Hist tree there.

Nomadic_Atmoran

I personally think the EP will collapse (at least its current form) much sooner than expected. I can't see the internal issues being held off for more than a few decades at best.

Nords and Dunmer Relationship

I think you are right in assuming the Dunmer are using the Nords for the purpose of gaining more power and influence through the capture of the Imperial Throne. We are told that it was the Nords that pushed for the Argonians to be freed for their efforts against the Akaviri. We also know that slavery is still rampant in Morrowind as the Dres have moved their slave operations to capturing Khajiit and Bretons (I suspect the Breton slaves are likely being hidden from the view of Nord leadership). We also know the Telvanni opted out of the Ebonheart Pact and maintained their slave trade. My guess is the Dunmer have no intentions of letting the Nords dictate Dunmer slavery forever and that the freedom of the Argonians was a short term loss for what seemed to be a possible long term gain with a Dunmer sitting on the Imperial Throne. I imagine the Tribunal allowed the Telvanni to opt out because it maintains the Argonian slave trade which could be quickly reestablished in whole in the future once their goals are met. The Dres still maintains Argonian labor on their farms and while it is not outright said its likely these Argonians are essentially wage slaves that have no choice but to continue working the very farms they once worked as slaves. It would not be difficult for the Dunmer to simply slap chains back onto these Argonians and raid the nearby Argonian villages set aside following the Akaviri invasion. It may take a few years to get back to what the slave trade once was but the Dunmer are long lived and they have the time and expertise to make it happen.

As for the Nord and Dunmer particularly, I believe that Jorunn and Irnskar are probably the only real staples holding the two factions together and once they are gone the shaky alliance will begin to erode. I would not be surprised if it begins with the death of Jorunn as Irnskar may not be up to the challenge of keeping the alliance firmly focused on the capture of Cyrodiil and the Imperial City. Irnskar will likely only honor the Pact because its his fathers legacy but to me hes always come off as otherwise disinterested in the whole affair. Once Jorunn passes the Dunmer may reevaluate their partnership with the Nords and if the goal of putting a Dunmer on the throne is still obtainable. A large part of the EP storyline is just how shaky their alliance really is and that the only thing that is holding them together is the continued threat of invasion. After putting down two separate invasions the AD and DC may not send more armies into the jaws of the EP as such a thing is costly even when it goes right. So in the future what exactly is going to hold these three factions together when the external threat is localized to Cyrodiil?

Dunmer and Argonians

We know from things we encounter in game that the tension between the Dunmer and Argonians is bubbling beneath the surface. It's only really being downplayed because ZOS does not want the EP to be seen as the evil faction due to the rampant racism and slavery that would otherwise be present. Through out the early quests in Bal Foyen and Stonefalls the distrust and hatred for each other is palpable. And things nearly boil over into outright violence when the AD attempt to goad the Dunmer and Argonians in Shadowfen.

It hasn't even been that long since the chains came off. 10 years is really not a very long time for the trauma and hatred to fade from either groups collective memory. These sort of things takes generations and we know from other TES games that generational hatred and trauma can span millennia. So for the very Dunmer slavers and the former enslaved Argonians to be not just living in close proximity but working along side each other. Theres an almost zero chance that the two groups dont eventually become violent with one another. And I would have to assume its going to be sooner than later. I dont believe for a moment that the Dunmer and Argonians can live peacefully even in this time period as the status quo has only slightly changed for some of the Argonians. But the Dunmer still actively prowl Black Marsh for slaves, utilizing Shadowfen as a stop over before moving their slaves northward. The Argonians that refuse to serve the Pact are ousted from EP lands and likely have no where to turn to in the deeper marsh.

Nords and Argonians

While the Nords do not like slavery and are the primary reason the Argonians now living in EP lands are free. I seriously doubt that the Nords are doing this out of a sense of justice or righteousness. Its a means to an end. We know from the tribe in Greenshade that when they refused to fight for the EP they were ousted. And while we may not have the full story there, what ZOS was trying to convey is very obvious. The EP freed the Argonians to better bolster their professional military. Slaves forced to fight are huge liabilities for an army. They are poorly trained, have no motivation to stay in a fight, and have a strong possibility of turning on their handlers in the heat of battle. The Nords and eventually the Dunmer likely realized this and set in motion freeing the Argonians with the stipulation that if they stayed they would need to contribute to the Ebonheart Pact. If they chose not to assist they would be banished and would need to find a new home. I would not be surprised that the Dunmer are aware that Argonians born outside of Black Marsh are not welcome or at least will have a hard time integrating with Black Marsh born Argonians. This would be used as leverage to ensure the Argonians were on board. So I suspect that the Nords do not care one way or another how the Argonians are treated so long as they are able to contribute to the larger goals of the Pact.

Ebonheart Pact Going Forward

The future of the Pact is likely going to be the Nords and Dunmer going their separate ways once Jorunn is gone and if Irnskar cant find a way to solidify the alliances unity. The Dunmer will enlsave the Argonians again and likely use them to continue fighting but the Pact as we know it will have fractured. If Irnskar can somehow act as the glue for the alliance this may stave off the alliance coming apart for a few more decades. But I have my doubts it will get that far.

Jazraena

I believe there are a few misconceptions here on how the Ebonheart Pact came to be.

A few things are certainly a bit unclear, but at the core of how these three armies joined forces stand two people: Jorunn Skald-King and Keshu the Black Fin.
Keshu's Argonians didn't just help the Dark Elves on a whim. Jorunn and Keshu were friends, and Keshu owed him a debt for helping to free a friend and others from Dres slavers back when Jorunn travelled Black Marsh as a bard. Lorebooks do allude to hopes beyond that, but the request of a friend she was indebted to is at the core of Keshu leading her legion to Ebonheart.

After the battle then, when prompted how Skyrim and Morrowind could repay for Keshu's assistance, Keshu asked of Almalexia that her people, all Argonian slaves, would be free. Going by the tale of an Argonian 'squire' witness to the talks, the defensive pact between East Skyrim and most of Morrowind was already a clear plan at that time. Almalexia agreed - but only under the stipulation that Keshu herself and her legion would join this new alliance. By the next day, the Ebonheart Pact was a done deal.

Heita-Meen was mentioned, and was there, too, of course - but let's be clear: She was along for the ride with Keshu. She had planned to attack Dunmer at Stormhold and was nabbed by Keshu's people to come fight the Akaviri instead.

That much for the Argonians. A personal story, followed with a chance at freedom, and the weight of East Skyrim under a friend's rule complicating matters for the Dunmer if they ever reneged on their agreement. But why did East Skyrim and Morrowind ally in the first place?

We don't exactly know, but we have a variety of conflicting or dubious information, such as possibly Almalexia calling on the Ash-King instead of Jorunn well before the Akaviri turned to Morrowind, or the West Skyrim report indicating that the Dunmer were well prepared to lead the Akaviri in a fighting retreat into fortified positions where they could hit them from two sides together with the chasing Nord army - which entered Morrowind entirely unopposed. And why did Jorunn know just where to send Keshu? It all suggests earlier cooperation between the Skald-King and Almalexia.

To me, I see two possibilities: One, East Skyrim and Morrowind were already set on a defensive alliance, simply down due to geopolitical realities - a hostile West Skyrim, a belligerent Cyrodiil under the Longhouse Dynasty and constant slave revolts and guerilla warfare stemming from Keshu and other Argonians. The Daggerfall Covenant was also already reforged, with Emeric having just done away with his main rival Ranser, adding the orcs of Wrothgar into an unlikely alliance with the explicit desire to restore an Empire without Reachmen at the helm. Now, Jorunn wasn't King before the Akaviri assault on Windhelm - but he could have inherited that design from his predecessors, or Jorunn had prewarning from the Tribunal's prophetic powers.

The second option expands on that last bit: It was Almalexia's plan all along. The Tribunal has no interest in repeating the likes of the Fourscore War, ultimatively successful as their defence had been. Getting Skyrim and northern Black Marsh into her pockets provides both a buffer against all land assaults aside a short border towards Cyrodiil that she could reinforce with foreign bodies, and letting her historical enemies and slaves bleed for Morrowind sits alright with her. It does away with the increasing trouble of slave revolts and secures that the Nords would not join forces with the Covenant or with Cyrodiil should a non-Reachman ever return to power. Under this assumption, she did indeed summon the Ash-King, and effectively put Jorunn in power over both East Skyrim and as the commander-in-chief of the Pact as her sockpuppet. Keshu asking for slaves to be released may have been unforeseen - the account of the meeting has her hesitate - but it's ultimately a minor price to temporarily pay in the long-reaching designs of a Living God. Argonian slaves can be replaced (I'm dead-certain some were just traded for Khajiit with the Telvanni or transferred into pro-forma indentured servitude and wage-slavery) and the effects mitigated. Overall, she wins on nearly every account. Is it coincidence that Jorunn doesn't command from Windhelm, but from her city, Mournhold? That he sent his boy to High Isle while Almalexia continues to whisper into his ear? Does Jorunn feel like a ruler to you?

Now - that was speculation. But both options have two underlying core facts:
- Personal relationships unbound by racial dislike
- Strategically, it makes sense for all three parties.

The last I can't stress enough. As the saying goes, nations have interests and rivals, not friends or foes. All three had due reason for shoring up their security.

How long the Pact survives once Tamriel quietens down is another question. And to lead back to the OP there, I think the Pact falls when it runs out of unifying threats, because then those geopolitical realities disappear.

psychotrip

Jazraena wrote: »

I believe there are a few misconceptions here on how the Ebonheart Pact came to be.

A few things are certainly a bit unclear, but at the core of how these three armies joined forces stand two people: Jorunn Skald-King and Keshu the Black Fin.
Keshu's Argonians didn't just help the Dark Elves on a whim. Jorunn and Keshu were friends, and Keshu owed him a debt for helping to free a friend and others from Dres slavers back when Jorunn travelled Black Marsh as a bard. Lorebooks do allude to hopes beyond that, but the request of a friend she was indebted to is at the core of Keshu leading her legion to Ebonheart.

After the battle then, when prompted how Skyrim and Morrowind could repay for Keshu's assistance, Keshu asked of Almalexia that her people, all Argonian slaves, would be free. Going by the tale of an Argonian 'squire' witness to the talks, the defensive pact between East Skyrim and most of Morrowind was already a clear plan at that time. Almalexia agreed - but only under the stipulation that Keshu herself and her legion would join this new alliance. By the next day, the Ebonheart Pact was a done deal.

Heita-Meen was mentioned, and was there, too, of course - but let's be clear: She was along for the ride with Keshu. She had planned to attack Dunmer at Stormhold and was nabbed by Keshu's people to come fight the Akaviri instead.

That much for the Argonians. A personal story, followed with a chance at freedom, and the weight of East Skyrim under a friend's rule complicating matters for the Dunmer if they ever reneged on their agreement. But why did East Skyrim and Morrowind ally in the first place?

We don't exactly know, but we have a variety of conflicting or dubious information, such as possibly Almalexia calling on the Ash-King instead of Jorunn well before the Akaviri turned to Morrowind, or the West Skyrim report indicating that the Dunmer were well prepared to lead the Akaviri in a fighting retreat into fortified positions where they could hit them from two sides together with the chasing Nord army - which entered Morrowind entirely unopposed. And why did Jorunn know just where to send Keshu? It all suggests earlier cooperation between the Skald-King and Almalexia.

To me, I see two possibilities: One, East Skyrim and Morrowind were already set on a defensive alliance, simply down due to geopolitical realities - a hostile West Skyrim, a belligerent Cyrodiil under the Longhouse Dynasty and constant slave revolts and guerilla warfare stemming from Keshu and other Argonians. The Daggerfall Covenant was also already reforged, with Emeric having just done away with his main rival Ranser, adding the orcs of Wrothgar into an unlikely alliance with the explicit desire to restore an Empire without Reachmen at the helm. Now, Jorunn wasn't King before the Akaviri assault on Windhelm - but he could have inherited that design from his predecessors, or Jorunn had prewarning from the Tribunal's prophetic powers.

The second option expands on that last bit: It was Almalexia's plan all along. The Tribunal has no interest in repeating the likes of the Fourscore War, ultimatively successful as their defence had been. Getting Skyrim and northern Black Marsh into her pockets provides both a buffer against all land assaults aside a short border towards Cyrodiil that she could reinforce with foreign bodies, and letting her historical enemies and slaves bleed for Morrowind sits alright with her. It does away with the increasing trouble of slave revolts and secures that the Nords would not join forces with the Covenant or with Cyrodiil should a non-Reachman ever return to power. Under this assumption, she did indeed summon the Ash-King, and effectively put Jorunn in power over both East Skyrim and as the commander-in-chief of the Pact as her sockpuppet. Keshu asking for slaves to be released may have been unforeseen - the account of the meeting has her hesitate - but it's ultimately a minor price to temporarily pay in the long-reaching designs of a Living God. Argonian slaves can be replaced (I'm dead-certain some were just traded for Khajiit with the Telvanni or transferred into pro-forma indentured servitude and wage-slavery) and the effects mitigated. Overall, she wins on nearly every account. Is it coincidence that Jorunn doesn't command from Windhelm, but from her city, Mournhold? That he sent his boy to High Isle while Almalexia continues to whisper into his ear? Does Jorunn feel like a ruler to you?

Now - that was speculation. But both options have two underlying core facts:
- Personal relationships unbound by racial dislike
- Strategically, it makes sense for all three parties.

The last I can't stress enough. As the saying goes, nations have interests and rivals, not friends or foes. All three had due reason for shoring up their security.

How long the Pact survives once Tamriel quietens down is another question. And to lead back to the OP there, I think the Pact falls when it runs out of unifying threats, because then those geopolitical realities disappear.

Interesting history, but this all just feels like the devs desperately trying to write around the need for a 3 sided faction war. You say this was a matter of personal friendship. I say, tell that to the argonians dying on the battlefield just to be put in chains again once the fighting ends. You say that all 3 sides win, I say tell that to the argonians dying on the battlefield just to be put in chains once the fighting ends.

I have yet to see an explanation for why the Argonians siding with the pact think it's a good idea to do so, and we know for a fact that it wasn't, because later games show us. So if nothing else the argonians got tricked by people infamous for their trickery. If nothing else, it makes them look gullible. Why didnt they leave after the Akaviri war? Or even go to war with Morrowind over slavery while they were weak?

If Jorunn and Keshu are such good friends, why didnt they team up against Morrowind instead? Keshu would've gotten way more support / manpower from her people, and so would Jorunn. The Nords have conquered Skyrim before, and Black Marsh is supposedly impossible to conquer. They could surround the province, with the nords attacking from Windhelm, Sheogorad, even Solstheim, while the argonians raid the south for slaves to liberate.

Sure there's problems with this plan as well (the tribunal is at full power, but still not invincible), but it's just an example of how unecessary the relationship between Morrowind and Argonia really is. What do they get out of this war in cyrodiil?

Jazraena

You uh, argue with the future to explain the present and ignored half of what I wrote.

Every specific question you have is adressed in my post.

The most relevant aspects you need to realize however are these: 'The Argonians' didn't ally with anyone. East Skyrim and most of Morrowind did, and 'one Argonian guerilla and her followers' did to try and free their kin from slavery. Several more tribes followed later when it was clear that slaves were indeed being freed.

psychotrip

Jazraena wrote: »

You uh, argue with the future to explain the present and ignored half of what I wrote.

Every specific question you have is adressed in my post.

The most relevant aspects you need to realize however are these: 'The Argonians' didn't ally with anyone. East Skyrim and most of Morrowind did, and 'one Argonian guerilla and her followers' did to try and free their kin from slavery. Several more tribes followed later when it was clear that slaves were indeed being freed.

I didnt ignore anything. I just dont find the answers satisfying. I know not all argonians sided with Keshu. I'm talking about those that did, and it doesn't make sense to me. Yes, I'm using the future to criticize present decisions, because it shows that it was provably the wrong decision to make. Even without hindsight it should have been obvious that the dunmer would betray them. So what was it all for? I dont get what they're accomplishing here. A brief period of freedom in return for their lives? How is that the best option here.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I read your whole post and it just feels like they were writing backward to justify a gameplay choice, and they left behind a lot of poorly answered questions in doing so.

Oakenaxe

Or even go to war with Morrowind over slavery while they were weak?

- Starting another war right after they barely won one sounds costly and tiresome. Not to mention having to face the Tribunal. A diplomatic approach seems more reasonable.

What do they get out of this war in cyrodiil?

- Well, the Tribunal probably wants more influence, and it would be good for the Dunmer to be free to maintain their cultural independence/Daedra worship without having to worry about the Empire. The Nords probably wouldn't be very happy about the Dominion, or even the Covenant, seizing the Ruby Throne. The Argonians I agree they have the least interest in this war, I guess they may see it as an opportunity to keep free from slavery and outlaw it for good once the Pact claims the Ruby Throne.

psychotrip

Oakenaxe wrote: »

Or even go to war with Morrowind over slavery while they were weak?

- Starting another war right after they barely won one sounds costly and tiresome. Not to mention having to face the Tribunal. A diplomatic approach seems more reasonable.

What do they get out of this war in cyrodiil?

- Well, the Tribunal probably wants more influence, and it would be good for the Dunmer to be free to maintain their cultural independence/Daedra worship without having to worry about the Empire. The Nords probably wouldn't be very happy about the Dominion, or even the Covenant, seizing the Ruby Throne. The Argonians I agree they have the least interest in this war, I guess they may see it as an opportunity to outlaw slavery for good once the Pact claims the Ruby Throne.

How does that make sense though? If their motivations are still so vague after all these years, then isn't that like...a massive story issue?

But I dont want to bash the writing anymore so I'll just steer us back to the topic of how and why it will collapse

Jazraena

They allied with Jorunn first and foremost, with immediate positive effect: freedom for their kin.

The only risk was the alliance failing and slavery to return, but that was the Status Quo already. It was the best shot the enslaved ever had. That was the reality. At worst, things would be as they already were. As of ESO time, things have already been better than that for a decade, and chances are it'll last another few until it all crumbles. Until then, Keshu has brought many freed slaves south in the hopes of creating a new open, free Argonia from Gideon.

I'm not even sure what your attempted link to 'the war in Cyrodiil' should be. That happened well after.

Jazraena

Oakenaxe wrote: »

Or even go to war with Morrowind over slavery while they were weak?

- Starting another war right after they barely won one sounds costly and tiresome. Not to mention having to face the Tribunal. A diplomatic approach seems more reasonable.

What do they get out of this war in cyrodiil?

- Well, the Tribunal probably wants more influence, and it would be good for the Dunmer to be free to maintain their cultural independence/Daedra worship without having to worry about the Empire. The Nords probably wouldn't be very happy about the Dominion, or even the Covenant, seizing the Ruby Throne. The Argonians I agree they have the least interest in this war, I guess they may see it as an opportunity to keep free from slavery and outlaw it for good once the Pact claims the Ruby Throne.

The Planemeld happened years after the formation of the Pact. What the Pact wants is to a) stop the daedric threat and b) prevent the Imperials to mess it up again. It's a 'So done with this [snip]', not a power grab.

psychotrip

Jazraena wrote: »

They allied with Jorunn first and foremost, with immediate positive effect: freedom for their kin.

The only risk was the alliance failing and slavery to return, but that was the Status Quo already. It was the best shot the enslaved ever had. That was the reality. At worst, things would be as they already were. As of ESO time, things have already been better than that for a decade, and chances are it'll last another few until it all crumbles. Until then, Keshu has brought many freed slaves south in the hopes of creating a new open, free Argonia from Gideon.

I'm not even sure what your attempted link to 'the war in Cyrodiil' should be. That happened well after.

Because I dont get why the argonians are participating in the war in Cyrodiil? I dont know why that's a weird question to ask.

I dont get why any argonians remain in the pact, or even the nords, really. You've explained why the nords and argonians are buddies. I get it. I think that's a cool angle to work with. But why stick with the dunmer when they could side with anyone else who could conquer tamriel and outlaw slavery? For that matter, why didnt the nords join with the covenant? I'm sure there's an explanation I just genuinely forget. It must be a damned good reason to choose your mortal enemies who enslave your allies over...well anyone else, really.

I'll just never understand why argonians would side with their slavemasters on the promise of "lol trust me bro we wont enslave you again now die for us conquering a province none of us really care about".

Also, I should note that you've done a better job explaining this than anyone else, including ESO itself. I get the mentality a BIT, but it still just feels hopelessly naive, and narratively convenient.

You dont negotiate with your slavemasters. You just dont. You said yourself that many argonians were likely just thrown into wage slavery. That's why you dont negotiate with slavemasters. They have an incentive to exploit your labor, and they'll do it one way or another until you start killing them.

Jazraena

I think you need to read up on a timeline, and what's happening in Cyrodiil. Either way, it's not related to the formation of the Pact.

psychotrip

Jazraena wrote: »

I think you need to read up on a timeline, and what's happening in Cyrodiil. Either way, it's not related to the formation of the Pact.

Dude it's not about how it's formed. Its how it existed for any longer than it needed to. I feel like you're not reading MY posts now lol. Cyrodiil is relevant to the pact RIGHT NOW. And Argonians are aiding the pact by fighting in Cyrodiil.

You can tell me over and over again how it formed, and I'll still say it was a naive and provably wrong decision for the argonians to remain part of it. Negotiating with your own slavemasters is naive and ultimately pointless. You either end up as second class citizens or right back where you started. Argonians are literally dying for their slavemasters over the Three Banners War. Why?

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You uh, argue with the future to explain the present and ignored half of what I wrote.

Every specific question you have is adressed in my post.

The most relevant aspects you need to realize however are these: 'The Argonians' didn't ally with anyone. East Skyrim and most of Morrowind did, and 'one Argonian guerilla and her followers' did to try and free their kin from slavery. Several more tribes followed later when it was clear that slaves were indeed being freed.

I didnt ignore anything. I just dont find the answers satisfying. I know not all argonians sided with Keshu. I'm talking about those that did, and it doesn't make sense to me. Yes, I'm using the future to criticize present decisions, because it shows that it was provably the wrong decision to make. Even without hindsight it should have been obvious that the dunmer would betray them. So what was it all for? I dont get what they're accomplishing here. A brief period of freedom in return for their lives? How is that the best option here.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I read your whole post and it just feels like they were writing backward to justify a gameplay choice, and they left behind a lot of poorly answered questions in doing so.

If you are going to dismiss everything we say from canon sources about events that canonically happened as the Devs writing backwards to justify a gameplay choice, then nothing is going to satisfy you.

But it doesn't really matter. Whether what's stated in ESO satisfies you or not, it's the canon answer for what happened and why in Elder Scrolls lore.

I already answered what Keshu and the others hoped to accomplish: they wanted a period of stability to build a more advanced Argonian society that could defend itself. They failed, not because they were stupid, but because the vast majority of Argonians don't care about having a more advanced society than they already have.

And finally, NPCs are allowed to be wrong in hindsight, just like real people in history. There's plenty of examples of well-intentioned reformers who tried to pull their country out of the past with dramatically mixed results. Keshu's efforts are ultimately futile, but no less interesting in the present in ESO. For us, she's a tragic character because we know that her idealism ends badly. When we place her efforts in the grand scheme of what we know about Argonians in the later games, suddenly the Saxheel Invasion following Red Year gains new context. Of course the 4th Era Argonians learned from Keshu's attempt that the Dunmer ending slavery themselves under Helseth is insufficient, and they took advantage of their ancient foe's distress to hammer home the end of slavery for good.

Like, it's the 2nd Era. ESO has a lot of stories that we know end poorly in the end. That Keshu and the Pact is a tragedy for the Argonians doesn't make it a bad story or her a badly written character.

psychotrip

And finally, NPCs are allowed to be wrong in hindsight, just like real people in history. There's plenty of examples of well-intentioned reformers who tried to pull their country out of the past with dramatically mixed results. Keshu's efforts are ultimately futile, but no less interesting in the present in ESO. For us, she's a tragic character because we know that her idealism ends badly.

This is a good way to view it, I think. I definitely think it was a bad decision, even without hindsight, but as you say people can make bad decisions in-universe. It's partially why I want to move past the issue of "is it well-written or not" but I have trouble letting stuff like this go when challenged on it. I'm willing to move on from that if others are, but I'll defend my position if challenged.

To be clear, I'm not just criticizing because I feel it was written backwards. I just feel it takes a lot of handwaving, convenience, and bad decisions by characters to come to this point, and for me it doesn't feel particularly worth it, from a storytelling perspective, to set things up like this in the first place. It certainly doesn't lead to an exciting faction I want to root for, but clearly that last bit is just my takeaway.

ANYWAY, I'd be happy to keep theorizing about what will cause it to fall apart, but I think everyone has already answered that well enough. Honestly, I should have expanded this thread to be about all 3 factions.