Aldoss wrote: »

MacRibs wrote: »

From a PVP perspective magden is literally the worst class to play with hands down, lackluster survivability and clunky, easy to avoid attacks.

A class that to use its best damage skill, deep fissure, has to be close to the enemy but melts against anything makes no sense, bear has no place anywhere near pvp so there goes a class ultimate out of the window, dive is so slow and clunky that is laughably easy to dodge, swarm has to be double cast to put any kind of pressure and even then can be cleansed.

You could run ice staff Destructive Reach but the projectile, basically the same as a ice staff light attack animation, is a somewhat slow, and easy to dodge at medium/long distance.

Sleet Storm and morphs are underwhelming, lost between being both offensive and defensive at that same time might as well have an full offensive and another full defensive morph, you might as well slot ice comet or dawnbreaker.

Can confirm. Bear is a terrible ult, so lose out on access to an execute.

Northern Storm is too easy to avoid since everyone runs race against time anyway and can just run away. If that's going to be the case, you might as well run vamp form which ticks for about as much per tick, but lasts longer and works better at keeping you alive better than Northern.

Rangeplars get more use out of meteor that us because they have a ranged unblockable stun. If a magden tries to use it, the target just blocks and nullifies the damage down to that of a spammable.

The only real offensive ult for a PvP warden is dawnbreaker. It's so disappointing.

Monday better be spectacular. Anything short of straight, direct buffs, sourced from the mountains of feedback we've provided on these forums (some of us for YEARS) won't be enough to save us.

I'm not holding my breath. Glad I'm getting one last Mayhem in on my magden. Enjoying every minute like it's my last.

Firstmep wrote: »

Let's be real, this is another one of those dummy parse changes, where it might look good, but in actual application is terrible.
I do think shalks need a bit of love, that being said the arctic changes are actually really nice, and my body is ready to play a full on frost warden next patch.

Aldoss wrote: »

As I was worried about, ZOS waited until the last half of the PTS cycle to drop some absolute bomb shells on us, changes that no one asked for, that completely change the playstyle of magden DD.

These changes are so shattering, there's no possible way to get enough feedback to do anything about them before they go live, and that makes me feel so defeated. I despise this change and I suspect I'm not alone.

The Shalks in the Room

I was finally able to find some folks to duel on the PTS to get some adequate understanding as to how the Week 4 DF change felt. Kudos to ZOS for making such a drastic change to PvP oriented magdens, during one of the only 2 PvP events, so no one is on PTS right now to even test things...

Deep Fissure is the most important aspect of playing a Magden. Scorch in general IS Warden. Everything we are is tied to the rhythm and feel of this skill. Anyone who hated casting Scorch every 3 seconds (or every 6 for Sub Assault) didn't play the class to begin with. This comes in contrast to classes such as Templar, who despite having one of the most iconic spammables in the game, are still able to function entirely without their class defining skill. As it happens, RangePlar is looking to be S Tier for next patch. This just isn't the case for Warden. When you ruin Deep Fissure, you will ruin Magden.

Week 4 not only changed the numbers of this skill, it also affected its rhythm. In doing so, it has completely destroyed what I believe is the entire feel of being a Magden DD.

The Compromise

For whatever reason, the decision was made to revert the timing back to what the Warden community asked for (3 seconds), but the devs kept the 6 second final hit attached the skill. Their idea was to give Warden a cost/benefit to waiting for this skill to land by giving it a 20% damage bonus.

As much as that sounds great, someone at the table decided that to account for that new power, the first hit must be nerfed to the tune of 14%. This might be the most destructive aspect of this change and desperately needs to go. Let me explain:

By nerfing the first hit, it's no longer "fun" to use this skill. Aiming it was already a challenge, but now, knowing that the damage of the first hit is less than a spammable, the necessity to make that hit land becomes the most important priority of a Warden, but not in a fun way.

It becomes literally everything. The anxiety this has induced is a tragedy. Playing my Magden on the PTS was the opposite of fun.

Missing a shalk hit is now deeply dissatisfying, whereas on live, it feels more like an "oops" moment. Everything about the power of a Magden relies on that first hit landing and if it doesn't, you need to redo the entire 9 second setup, knowing that your last 3 seconds were a waste.

This compromise is uncalled for. Magden DDs are the worst performing class in PvP. I don't really know how else to say this. We deserve no compromises for power buffs to our class. We are a unicorn in Cyro and a meme in PvP. We need straight buffs. Period.

If that first hit didn't have a damage nerf (on top of the illogical nerfs we already sustained in Week 1), then maybe I'd agree that having the bonus 6 second hit gain a 20% buff is interesting.

In that scenario, waiting the 6 seconds becomes an option. It's a tool to be used at the discretion of the user. The comprised first hit ruined that. It's a terrible experience and I'm 100% convinced that no one at ZOS actually played with this skill before pushing it through to the Week 4 patch notes.

The Aiming Problem

Scorch in general has to be aimed and it is unique in that, once casted, there is a very real, set time when your burst MUST happen. Not CAN happen. MUST.

This is in stark contrast to nearly every other class in the game. DKs get to choose when to unleash a triple stacked whip. Nightblades get to choose when to fire their spectral bow. Necros get to choose when to pop their graveyard. Magsorcs get to chose when to fire their frag proc and can time it with their curse (although, why would anyone this patch not run Crystal Weapon? There's a reason why it's getting nerfed).

Plars are unique in that their 6 second burst is also on a set timer. The difference here being that their burst is all but guaranteed, so long as their target doesn't cleanse it.

Same with Necro blastbones. They're on a set timer that cannot be changed once cast, but outside of the notorious bug where the skele sometimes just stands there and looks at you before despawning, it will 100% hit something.

Warden gets none of those benefits for all of the drawbacks and doesn't even benefit from having this skill be given the power it deserves.

The second DF hit is completely underwhelming. Knowing that my burst is locked away from me for 9 seconds, but also exactly 9 seconds, feels wrong. It's basically the only thing I can focus on, yet for that focus, I MIGHT land a hit that deals 8-9k. Meanwhile, every 6 seconds I'm being obliterated by 12-14k purifying lights, or being pummeled by 5-7k concealed weapons.

It's clear to me that no one at ZOS played any amount of time with this change. It seemed good, so they wrote it down on paper, and that was that.

The Debuffed Debuff

Deep Fissure finally gained some much needed love by gaining Major and Minor Breach. That is a perfect example of a welcomed change. We needed something, you gave us something. It wasn't perfect, but it worked instantly.

Tying breach in general to our primary class defining, delayed burst skill is up to debate. I'm sure some people love it while others hate it. I'm not necessarily happy that our primary power debuff is locked behind a skill that can, and does, miss frequently. But I'm fine with it. I clearly play Magden right now.

However, by nerfing the damage of our first hit, literally EVERYTHING relies on that first hit landing. On live, our true burst is locked behind a 6 second minimum window. We cast DF, make it land, it applies Major and Minor Breach, we cast it again, and get it to land. This is completely fine as is. If you miss one, "oops" you done messed up. Try again. 3 seconds total wasted isn't that big of a deal. The debuf still lasts for 3x longer than the cast time. You'd have to miss 3 DFs in a row to have Maj/Min Breach fall off.

On PTS, this is no longer the case. If that first hit misses, you MUST try again. Otherwise, you are waiting double the amount of time for a hit that may or may not land and doesn't even benefit from its most important aspect, 9k penetration.

What's more? Major and Minor Breach last for 10 seconds and get applied after each hit. The entire combo last 9 seconds, meaning you have exactly 1 second of leeway before you MUST load DF again, otherwise you lose out on the possibility of your next debuff hit missing (which it does so frequently).

This is counter-intuitive to the play style of a Magden. We have no class execute outside of our ultimate. Let's not get into why no Magden runs Guardian, just know that basically no Magden does. They're going to use Northern Storm or Dawnbreaker. Meteor sort of works, but since we have no way to ensure it goes through block, it is the weakest ultimate choice for a Magden.

In real world application, you plan out your combo, you land the debuff hit, and begin planning out the next 6 second burst. When that proc hit lands, if it didn't kill them right then and there, it's all you can do to just spam your spammable (I like Blood for Blood currently) to seal the deal. That's at least 1 GCD, and its the only GCD you're given before Major and Minor Breach fall off. If you choose to not reload DF after it lands, you MUST land that next DF debuff hit, otherwise you lose out on the choice to let the 6 second buff hit continue, because you know that Maj/Min Breach will fall off before it lands. This continues in a circle. It's really not fun at all to use or to play with.

The Miracle

We need a miracle this Monday. I don't really know who is pulling our strings or why there doesn't appear to be anyone at ZOS that sympathizes with our struggle, but it feels very defeating right now to watch my favorite playstyle get torn apart and dismembered. It's even more defeating knowing that these changes are going to go live because I have no faith that this post will even be read, let alone acted upon, in the short time frame that we have to save us.

Magden needs nothing more than straight buffs. We deserve nothing less. Revert the damage nerfs you enacted on Scorch from the start and remove the terrible 14% damage nerf that you applied to the first hit. It's so redundant. That hit already does less the first time because Major and Minor Breach have yet to applied.

If you won't just give us the 20% buff that this skill deserves, with no strings attached, then leave the 6 second secondary hit as a bonus. Let it become a tool that we can utilize when the timing works for us. Otherwise, let us freaking play our class like we have been and fell in love with for the last several years.

Look at all the feedback that us Magdens have provided you for insight as to what we need to even be competitive. We're not asking to go from bottom barrel to S Tier. We just want our class to make sense again.

If Deep Fissure makes it live, I will 100% be done with Magden.

The Data

Here are some CMX reports from some of my duels.

This first opponent was a rangeplar. I never lasted longer than 90 seconds against this player with how much pressure they had.

In 60 seconds, I was only able to land 3 buffed DF hits on my best attempt. The others were 2. I cannot stress enough, this is absolutely awful.

Meanwhile, this plar is able to hit 8 purifying lights on average in 60 seconds, that average over 8k per hit. If you account for every DF hit, not just the buffed hits, I'm averaging 4-5 hits TOTAL in 60 seconds and they only average out to about 5k or less.

My second opponent was another rangeplar (so hot right now) but arguably less skilled. I landed every DF against this target, which basically never happens. That's 30 total DF hits, but they average out to only 4060 per hit. I did get one amazing crit with Major Brittle proccd for over 9k. This also never happens and didn't happen again over the 1hr+ that I dueled.

On the second duel with this player I switched back to Blood for Blood. They also changed their style and I started missing DFs again. 4 of my 9 second buff hits missed. Absolutely devastating to spend so much time lining up a combo, and then get javelined right before it goes off and it misses.

My 3rd opponent was a magblade, also looking really strong next patch. They were zooming around so much I actually missed my debuff DF hits more. I never saw a hit greater than 6.5k. Meanwhile, they slapped me with an 8k concealed weapon and landed a 15k Assassin's Will.

I switched back to live to remind myself what Magden felt like.

My first opponent was clearly a Broakensoul no stealth magblade. They were also zooming around like mad and I was only able to land 6 DFs in the entire 2.5 minute duel. They smacked me with a 10k concealed weapon, but even then that 9200 crit Blood for Blood with the DF hit sealed it.

My second opponent on live was a stamplar. Also arguably not that skilled. I landed 5 of my 7 DFs against them.

I'm not an amazing dueler and I'm not suggesting that magden needs to become an amazing 1v1 class. I'm just trying to quantify the dread that I feel when playing magden on the PTS vs live. It's absolutely awful. Playing magden on live feels like I'm the one driving my gameplay. I hit shalks nearly 3 seconds. It's fun for me and I suspect it's fun for every other magden too. I'm the one in control of my burst window because the window isn't that massive. I can count to 3 in my head and be pretty close to the actual timing. I literally cannot imagine if I'll ever be able to "feel" what 9 seconds is. I don't think there's any amount of time experience that will do that for me. And the worst part is, the benefit for losing our 3 second window for a 9 second one is barely noticeable.

If you want to give me an option of a bigger burst, be my guest. I like options. What I don't like is this gutted mess of my most important skill.

This key skill has been decimated and, if it goes live, will ruin whatever enjoyment I had left in my magden.

Stop nerfing us. Stop giving us hoops to jump through to not even be somewhat competitive in the combat environment of this game. We don't deserve these nerfs and drastic changes to the very soul of what it is to be magden.

Please do something amazing this Monday. Every magden is awaiting this week's notes with such anxiety.

Klingenlied wrote: »

We do however have the problem of not having any cooldowns in the game. So adding cooldowns to prevent spam doesn't work. I guess that is one of the prime reasons those stronger, bursty skills did end rather clunky for some classes - and just plain and simple bad for Warden.

• Remove the anim cancel on LA/HA so they became the new "spam" skill.
• Change the actual "spam" skill into damage/utility skill with cooldown, proc or stack mechanism.

Nathyiel wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

We do however have the problem of not having any cooldowns in the game. So adding cooldowns to prevent spam doesn't work. I guess that is one of the prime reasons those stronger, bursty skills did end rather clunky for some classes - and just plain and simple bad for Warden.

They can resolve it "easily".

• Remove the anim cancel on LA/HA so they became the new "spam" skill.
• Change the actual "spam" skill into damage/utility skill with cooldown, proc or stack mechanism.

It will slow down the game (less APM) but it will open room for new build. And don't listen to the pro-weaving who are just stalling the game.


Back to Deep Fissure.
The main problem is : good AOE damage with the most important debuff (major+minor breach in 1 spell ).
(And the delay is a band aid design).

Either you keep the burst part, then it need some kind of cooldown. Then major+minor breach need to move to 1 or 2 skill.
Either you keep the debuff then Warden need to have a new damage burst somewhere. (there's room for a small burst skill in the staff tree, for example).

I think it's important to keep the small burst feeling for the Warden.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I think the fix is to take the values on live and nerf it’s damage by about 25%. But then you take that number that was nerfed and put it into Winter’s Revenge and Fetcher Infection. Transferring the damage and spreading it out a bit so that it isn’t a make or break ability.

For Example:

Let’s say Fissure deals 10k (for easy math)

Bring it down to about 7500 or maybe 8500.

Then buff the live values of Fetcher and Winter’s by a comparable amount per second. Winter’s especially needed buffing from live values.

However, ZoS decided not only to hit Scorch but also hit DoT’s too AND the passives nerf on top. Magden’s got taken to the cleaners, Stamsorc too. I can understand taking Scorches massive impact down a notch but if you’re gonna nerf Scorch you need to move that damage somewhere else to compensate.

Nathyiel wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

Generally speaking in regards to combat system changes: Yes, I would not mind a complete overhaul - but this is unrealistic. ESO combat has some ups and to be better, they would needa redo almost everything, including a lot of animations. That is work that costs money - a lot actually - and doesn't give a back anything that can easily be calculated.

Since the weaving problem is basically animation canceling, they can keep most animation. And it's easier to rework existing animation than creating from zero.
(edit) They can also using NPC animation, like all those fancy skill that we don't have access.

But this kind of change would be for new chapter, not small patch. There's a possibility they are working on it "just in case".

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I think the fix is to take the values on live and nerf it’s damage by about 25%. But then you take that number that was nerfed and put it into Winter’s Revenge and Fetcher Infection. Transferring the damage and spreading it out a bit so that it isn’t a make or break ability.

For Example:

Let’s say Fissure deals 10k (for easy math)

Bring it down to about 7500 or maybe 8500.

Then buff the live values of Fetcher and Winter’s by a comparable amount per second. Winter’s especially needed buffing from live values.

However, ZoS decided not only to hit Scorch but also hit DoT’s too AND the passives nerf on top. Magden’s got taken to the cleaners, Stamsorc too. I can understand taking Scorches massive impact down a notch but if you’re gonna nerf Scorch you need to move that damage somewhere else to compensate.