Magden needs a miracle...

Aldoss

As I was worried about, ZOS waited until the last half of the PTS cycle to drop some absolute bomb shells on us, changes that no one asked for, that completely change the playstyle of magden DD.

These changes are so shattering, there's no possible way to get enough feedback to do anything about them before they go live, and that makes me feel so defeated. I despise this change and I suspect I'm not alone.

The Shalks in the Room

I was finally able to find some folks to duel on the PTS to get some adequate understanding as to how the Week 4 DF change felt. Kudos to ZOS for making such a drastic change to PvP oriented magdens, during one of the only 2 PvP events, so no one is on PTS right now to even test things...

Deep Fissure is the most important aspect of playing a Magden. Scorch in general IS Warden. Everything we are is tied to the rhythm and feel of this skill. Anyone who hated casting Scorch every 3 seconds (or every 6 for Sub Assault) didn't play the class to begin with. This comes in contrast to classes such as Templar, who despite having one of the most iconic spammables in the game, are still able to function entirely without their class defining skill. As it happens, RangePlar is looking to be S Tier for next patch. This just isn't the case for Warden. When you ruin Deep Fissure, you will ruin Magden.

Week 4 not only changed the numbers of this skill, it also affected its rhythm. In doing so, it has completely destroyed what I believe is the entire feel of being a Magden DD.

The Compromise

For whatever reason, the decision was made to revert the timing back to what the Warden community asked for (3 seconds), but the devs kept the 6 second final hit attached the skill. Their idea was to give Warden a cost/benefit to waiting for this skill to land by giving it a 20% damage bonus.

As much as that sounds great, someone at the table decided that to account for that new power, the first hit must be nerfed to the tune of 14%. This might be the most destructive aspect of this change and desperately needs to go. Let me explain:

By nerfing the first hit, it's no longer "fun" to use this skill. Aiming it was already a challenge, but now, knowing that the damage of the first hit is less than a spammable, the necessity to make that hit land becomes the most important priority of a Warden, but not in a fun way.

It becomes literally everything. The anxiety this has induced is a tragedy. Playing my Magden on the PTS was the opposite of fun.

Missing a shalk hit is now deeply dissatisfying, whereas on live, it feels more like an "oops" moment. Everything about the power of a Magden relies on that first hit landing and if it doesn't, you need to redo the entire 9 second setup, knowing that your last 3 seconds were a waste.

This compromise is uncalled for. Magden DDs are the worst performing class in PvP. I don't really know how else to say this. We deserve no compromises for power buffs to our class. We are a unicorn in Cyro and a meme in PvP. We need straight buffs. Period.

If that first hit didn't have a damage nerf (on top of the illogical nerfs we already sustained in Week 1), then maybe I'd agree that having the bonus 6 second hit gain a 20% buff is interesting.

In that scenario, waiting the 6 seconds becomes an option. It's a tool to be used at the discretion of the user. The comprised first hit ruined that. It's a terrible experience and I'm 100% convinced that no one at ZOS actually played with this skill before pushing it through to the Week 4 patch notes.

The Aiming Problem

Scorch in general has to be aimed and it is unique in that, once casted, there is a very real, set time when your burst MUST happen. Not CAN happen. MUST.

This is in stark contrast to nearly every other class in the game. DKs get to choose when to unleash a triple stacked whip. Nightblades get to choose when to fire their spectral bow. Necros get to choose when to pop their graveyard. Magsorcs get to chose when to fire their frag proc and can time it with their curse (although, why would anyone this patch not run Crystal Weapon? There's a reason why it's getting nerfed).

Plars are unique in that their 6 second burst is also on a set timer. The difference here being that their burst is all but guaranteed, so long as their target doesn't cleanse it.

Same with Necro blastbones. They're on a set timer that cannot be changed once cast, but outside of the notorious bug where the skele sometimes just stands there and looks at you before despawning, it will 100% hit something.

Warden gets none of those benefits for all of the drawbacks and doesn't even benefit from having this skill be given the power it deserves.

The second DF hit is completely underwhelming. Knowing that my burst is locked away from me for 9 seconds, but also exactly 9 seconds, feels wrong. It's basically the only thing I can focus on, yet for that focus, I MIGHT land a hit that deals 8-9k. Meanwhile, every 6 seconds I'm being obliterated by 12-14k purifying lights, or being pummeled by 5-7k concealed weapons.

It's clear to me that no one at ZOS played any amount of time with this change. It seemed good, so they wrote it down on paper, and that was that.

The Debuffed Debuff

Deep Fissure finally gained some much needed love by gaining Major and Minor Breach. That is a perfect example of a welcomed change. We needed something, you gave us something. It wasn't perfect, but it worked instantly.

Tying breach in general to our primary class defining, delayed burst skill is up to debate. I'm sure some people love it while others hate it. I'm not necessarily happy that our primary power debuff is locked behind a skill that can, and does, miss frequently. But I'm fine with it. I clearly play Magden right now.

However, by nerfing the damage of our first hit, literally EVERYTHING relies on that first hit landing. On live, our true burst is locked behind a 6 second minimum window. We cast DF, make it land, it applies Major and Minor Breach, we cast it again, and get it to land. This is completely fine as is. If you miss one, "oops" you done messed up. Try again. 3 seconds total wasted isn't that big of a deal. The debuf still lasts for 3x longer than the cast time. You'd have to miss 3 DFs in a row to have Maj/Min Breach fall off.

On PTS, this is no longer the case. If that first hit misses, you MUST try again. Otherwise, you are waiting double the amount of time for a hit that may or may not land and doesn't even benefit from its most important aspect, 9k penetration.

What's more? Major and Minor Breach last for 10 seconds and get applied after each hit. The entire combo last 9 seconds, meaning you have exactly 1 second of leeway before you MUST load DF again, otherwise you lose out on the possibility of your next debuff hit missing (which it does so frequently).

This is counter-intuitive to the play style of a Magden. We have no class execute outside of our ultimate. Let's not get into why no Magden runs Guardian, just know that basically no Magden does. They're going to use Northern Storm or Dawnbreaker. Meteor sort of works, but since we have no way to ensure it goes through block, it is the weakest ultimate choice for a Magden.

In real world application, you plan out your combo, you land the debuff hit, and begin planning out the next 6 second burst. When that proc hit lands, if it didn't kill them right then and there, it's all you can do to just spam your spammable (I like Blood for Blood currently) to seal the deal. That's at least 1 GCD, and its the only GCD you're given before Major and Minor Breach fall off. If you choose to not reload DF after it lands, you MUST land that next DF debuff hit, otherwise you lose out on the choice to let the 6 second buff hit continue, because you know that Maj/Min Breach will fall off before it lands. This continues in a circle. It's really not fun at all to use or to play with.

The Miracle

We need a miracle this Monday. I don't really know who is pulling our strings or why there doesn't appear to be anyone at ZOS that sympathizes with our struggle, but it feels very defeating right now to watch my favorite playstyle get torn apart and dismembered. It's even more defeating knowing that these changes are going to go live because I have no faith that this post will even be read, let alone acted upon, in the short time frame that we have to save us.

Magden needs nothing more than straight buffs. We deserve nothing less. Revert the damage nerfs you enacted on Scorch from the start and remove the terrible 14% damage nerf that you applied to the first hit. It's so redundant. That hit already does less the first time because Major and Minor Breach have yet to applied.

If you won't just give us the 20% buff that this skill deserves, with no strings attached, then leave the 6 second secondary hit as a bonus. Let it become a tool that we can utilize when the timing works for us. Otherwise, let us freaking play our class like we have been and fell in love with for the last several years.

Look at all the feedback that us Magdens have provided you for insight as to what we need to even be competitive. We're not asking to go from bottom barrel to S Tier. We just want our class to make sense again.

If Deep Fissure makes it live, I will 100% be done with Magden.

The Data

Here are some CMX reports from some of my duels.

This first opponent was a rangeplar. I never lasted longer than 90 seconds against this player with how much pressure they had.

In 60 seconds, I was only able to land 3 buffed DF hits on my best attempt. The others were 2. I cannot stress enough, this is absolutely awful.

Meanwhile, this plar is able to hit 8 purifying lights on average in 60 seconds, that average over 8k per hit. If you account for every DF hit, not just the buffed hits, I'm averaging 4-5 hits TOTAL in 60 seconds and they only average out to about 5k or less.

My second opponent was another rangeplar (so hot right now) but arguably less skilled. I landed every DF against this target, which basically never happens. That's 30 total DF hits, but they average out to only 4060 per hit. I did get one amazing crit with Major Brittle proccd for over 9k. This also never happens and didn't happen again over the 1hr+ that I dueled.

On the second duel with this player I switched back to Blood for Blood. They also changed their style and I started missing DFs again. 4 of my 9 second buff hits missed. Absolutely devastating to spend so much time lining up a combo, and then get javelined right before it goes off and it misses.

My 3rd opponent was a magblade, also looking really strong next patch. They were zooming around so much I actually missed my debuff DF hits more. I never saw a hit greater than 6.5k. Meanwhile, they slapped me with an 8k concealed weapon and landed a 15k Assassin's Will.

I switched back to live to remind myself what Magden felt like.

My first opponent was clearly a Broakensoul no stealth magblade. They were also zooming around like mad and I was only able to land 6 DFs in the entire 2.5 minute duel. They smacked me with a 10k concealed weapon, but even then that 9200 crit Blood for Blood with the DF hit sealed it.

My second opponent on live was a stamplar. Also arguably not that skilled. I landed 5 of my 7 DFs against them.

I'm not an amazing dueler and I'm not suggesting that magden needs to become an amazing 1v1 class. I'm just trying to quantify the dread that I feel when playing magden on the PTS vs live. It's absolutely awful. Playing magden on live feels like I'm the one driving my gameplay. I hit shalks nearly 3 seconds. It's fun for me and I suspect it's fun for every other magden too. I'm the one in control of my burst window because the window isn't that massive. I can count to 3 in my head and be pretty close to the actual timing. I literally cannot imagine if I'll ever be able to "feel" what 9 seconds is. I don't think there's any amount of time experience that will do that for me. And the worst part is, the benefit for losing our 3 second window for a 9 second one is barely noticeable.

If you want to give me an option of a bigger burst, be my guest. I like options. What I don't like is this gutted mess of my most important skill.

This key skill has been decimated and, if it goes live, will ruin whatever enjoyment I had left in my magden.

Stop nerfing us. Stop giving us hoops to jump through to not even be somewhat competitive in the combat environment of this game. We don't deserve these nerfs and drastic changes to the very soul of what it is to be magden.

Please do something amazing this Monday. Every magden is awaiting this week's notes with such anxiety.

Auldwulfe

I'm currently playing my wardens as "guildies"..... and that's what I am going to consider the class as, from now on.
The guild skills do so much more for us than our own class skills ..... it is, honestly, the best way to go, with what we have been given.

At some point, they may come back and revisit the Warden, and might even make it equal to the others... until then, it's merely a frame with a healing line that is almost adequate, that I can stack the weapon and guild skills on.

Auldwulfe

Mr_Stach

Once again a great overview of what's going on. Last week we dared to hope again with Arctic Blast being everything we wanted it to be and I guess the Bill came due on Scorch.

I think this patch is probably the make or break point for Warden for a lot of people and next week will need to be substantial, which I doubt it will be unfortunately.

But let's see what Zos' final attempt will be.

ESO_Nightingale

Fantastic post aldoss. I really can't do anything else but agree.

We didn't ask for a damage difference between ticks. We just asked for a reversion. I'd be okay with this update if they just reverted the damage loss of scorch and advanced species, and at least a partial reversion to winter's revenge. But i feel like we won't get that.

Caribou77

Yes, exactly. I have been posting this as well, but you’ve done it in thorough and compelling detail.

DEEP FISSURE IS VERY CHALLENGING TO LAND AGAINST GOOD PLAYERS. EVEN IF YOU ARE ADEPT AT IT, IT OFTEN MISSES. This is why comparing its damage to something like Haunting Curse is myopic and innacurate. Sorcs can cast HC and forget about it. DEEP FISSURE REQUIRES CONSTANT, UNWAVERING FOCUS WHILE YOU ARE TRYING TO LINE IT UP (AND STAYING ALIVE). DOING THIS FOR 9 SECONDS IN PVP IS NOT VIABLE. A DK WILL WHIP YOU 3 TIMES AND SPAM WHIRLING BLADES WHILE YOU WAIT 9 SECONDS FOR YOUR ONLY COMPETITIVE DAMAGE SKILL TO HIT.

The evolution of tweaks/updates to deep fissure and Magden over U35 have made it clear that there is no one on the Dev Team who plays Magden enough to understand the class and its challenges.

NO ONE ASKED FOR NERFS TO DEEP FISSURE.

NO ONE SAID MAGDEN IS OVERPOWERED IN PVP, IN ANY WAY.

NERFING THE MOST UNDERPOWERED CLASS’S ONLY VIABLE SKILL IS ABSURD, AND WILL NOT IMPROVE GAMEPLAY FOR ANYONE, IN ANY WAY.

PLEASE JUST REVERT DEEP FISSURE TO PRE-35.

merpins

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Once again a great overview of what's going on. Last week we dared to hope again with Arctic Blast being everything we wanted it to be and I guess the Bill came due on Scorch.

I think this patch is probably the make or break point for Warden for a lot of people and next week will need to be substantial, which I doubt it will be unfortunately.

But let's see what Zos' final attempt will be.

True. Warden still remains my highest DPS class even after the nerfs... Even if I don't like the nerfs. I'll still play it over my other classes which got reduced to atoms, but only because it is just better than my other toons.

Aldoss

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I'm currently playing my wardens as "guildies"..... and that's what I am going to consider the class as, from now on.
The guild skills do so much more for us than our own class skills ..... it is, honestly, the best way to go, with what we have been given.

At some point, they may come back and revisit the Warden, and might even make it equal to the others... until then, it's merely a frame with a healing line that is almost adequate, that I can stack the weapon and guild skills on.

Auldwulfe

I have no idea what they're doing this patch. Plars are using elemental weapon or crushing weapon instead of jabs. Necros and stamdens are using silver shards. I don't even know what sorcs are going to do.

Removing scorch is the complete destruction of this class.

ZOS has a terrible track record in moments like this.. I'm so worried about these.major changes coming on Monday....

Unified_Gaming

I think with how deep fissure is currently, the waiting 9s for the extra hit is a real pain point. It ruins the 3s rotation wardens are used to and feels punishing to miss that 9s hit. I do however like that they want to reward consecutive hits.

I'd suggest they just add a unique debuff to the enemy that when hit by deep fissure their next hit received by deep fissure within 10 seconds is increased by 10%. If not consumed after 5 seconds then the damage is increased to 20%.

It means wardens can use the 3s rotation time should they wish and also gives a little more give should they miss a hit. It also means the debuff of breach lines up easier.

I still would love to see off balance on this skill so wardens can have an offensive stun that can be hit at range.

Aldoss

I wouldn't mind that approach either. It gives us an option to drive the skill in a way that suits us and our current situation best, without affecting how the skill functions currently.

Nerfing the first hit further after sustaining the already (unwarranted) nerfed base damage, coupled with the Advanced Species nerf, is mind boggling ignorant of how hard this skill is to use.

Imagine if on Monday, they tell sorcs that Haunting Curse will now sustain a 22% damage nerf on the first hit, but gain 12% damage buff on the second...

But also, the curse will fail if you're not actively looking at your cursed enemy.
But also, the curse won't fire if your target moves too far away.

Imagine if whip incurred a damage penalty for not triple stacking it.

Imagine if deep breath were given a second hit "buff", but with all the drawbacks they just forced on magden.

What dev came up with this?!

Caribou77

A Dev who has not played warden in PVP.

katorga

All the while I keep getting hit by instant "spammables" with tool tips as high as my delayed "burst" skill, lol.

Tivnael

100% agree.
Please revert the scorch nerfs, i dont mind the 9s window but why nerfing the damage so drastically is a miracle to anyone playing magden pvp.
Didnt you notice no one plays magden in pvp? It so hard to survive out there as a magden. Your answer is a nerf? Please, why?
After years of magden pvp, i will have to quit eso if this goes live

Wolfpaw

The problem with Warden is the skills, out of the 4-5 mmorpg's I have played over the last 20years it's by far the worst put together class I have played. For anything to work right zos would have to redo skills/animations, and that's costly and time consuming with no return.

Animal skill line with skills that don't really do anything....for your animal, or work in benefit towards the beast master playstyle.

Nature skill line w/ awful heals that need multiple triggers for full effect, & some not worth slotting.

Ice skill line that's lackluster and a mix of dmg, control, & tanking.

Just a very weird class. It's too bad, it was my main when I came from PC to PSN, & for some time now has sat as my crafter.

MacRibs

From a PVP perspective magden is literally the worst class to play with hands down, lackluster survivability and clunky, easy to avoid attacks.

A class that to use its best damage skill, deep fissure, has to be close to the enemy but melts against anything makes no sense, bear has no place anywhere near pvp so there goes a class ultimate out of the window, dive is so slow and clunky that is laughably easy to dodge, swarm has to be double cast to put any kind of pressure and even then can be cleansed.

You could run ice staff Destructive Reach but the projectile, basically the same as a ice staff light attack animation, is a somewhat slow, and easy to dodge at medium/long distance.

Sleet Storm and morphs are underwhelming, lost between being both offensive and defensive at that same time might as well have an full offensive and another full defensive morph, you might as well slot ice comet or dawnbreaker.

Aldoss

MacRibs wrote: »

From a PVP perspective magden is literally the worst class to play with hands down, lackluster survivability and clunky, easy to avoid attacks.

A class that to use its best damage skill, deep fissure, has to be close to the enemy but melts against anything makes no sense, bear has no place anywhere near pvp so there goes a class ultimate out of the window, dive is so slow and clunky that is laughably easy to dodge, swarm has to be double cast to put any kind of pressure and even then can be cleansed.

You could run ice staff Destructive Reach but the projectile, basically the same as a ice staff light attack animation, is a somewhat slow, and easy to dodge at medium/long distance.

Sleet Storm and morphs are underwhelming, lost between being both offensive and defensive at that same time might as well have an full offensive and another full defensive morph, you might as well slot ice comet or dawnbreaker.

Can confirm. Bear is a terrible ult, so lose out on access to an execute.

Northern Storm is too easy to avoid since everyone runs race against time anyway and can just run away. If that's going to be the case, you might as well run vamp form which ticks for about as much per tick, but lasts longer and works better at keeping you alive better than Northern.

Rangeplars get more use out of meteor that us because they have a ranged unblockable stun. If a magden tries to use it, the target just blocks and nullifies the damage down to that of a spammable.

The only real offensive ult for a PvP warden is dawnbreaker. It's so disappointing.

Monday better be spectacular. Anything short of straight, direct buffs, sourced from the mountains of feedback we've provided on these forums (some of us for YEARS) won't be enough to save us.

I'm not holding my breath. Glad I'm getting one last Mayhem in on my magden. Enjoying every minute like it's my last.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

MacRibs wrote: »

From a PVP perspective magden is literally the worst class to play with hands down, lackluster survivability and clunky, easy to avoid attacks.

A class that to use its best damage skill, deep fissure, has to be close to the enemy but melts against anything makes no sense, bear has no place anywhere near pvp so there goes a class ultimate out of the window, dive is so slow and clunky that is laughably easy to dodge, swarm has to be double cast to put any kind of pressure and even then can be cleansed.

You could run ice staff Destructive Reach but the projectile, basically the same as a ice staff light attack animation, is a somewhat slow, and easy to dodge at medium/long distance.

Sleet Storm and morphs are underwhelming, lost between being both offensive and defensive at that same time might as well have an full offensive and another full defensive morph, you might as well slot ice comet or dawnbreaker.

Can confirm. Bear is a terrible ult, so lose out on access to an execute.

Northern Storm is too easy to avoid since everyone runs race against time anyway and can just run away. If that's going to be the case, you might as well run vamp form which ticks for about as much per tick, but lasts longer and works better at keeping you alive better than Northern.

Rangeplars get more use out of meteor that us because they have a ranged unblockable stun. If a magden tries to use it, the target just blocks and nullifies the damage down to that of a spammable.

The only real offensive ult for a PvP warden is dawnbreaker. It's so disappointing.

Monday better be spectacular. Anything short of straight, direct buffs, sourced from the mountains of feedback we've provided on these forums (some of us for YEARS) won't be enough to save us.

I'm not holding my breath. Glad I'm getting one last Mayhem in on my magden. Enjoying every minute like it's my last.

as far as pve is concerned i'm not holding my breath. but past tuesday morning i'm gonna be taking a step-back from the game.

Firstmep

Let's be real, this is another one of those dummy parse changes, where it might look good, but in actual application is terrible.
I do think shalks need a bit of love, that being said the arctic changes are actually really nice, and my body is ready to play a full on frost warden next patch.

MacRibs

Firstmep wrote: »

Let's be real, this is another one of those dummy parse changes, where it might look good, but in actual application is terrible.
I do think shalks need a bit of love, that being said the arctic changes are actually really nice, and my body is ready to play a full on frost warden next patch.

They feel like spreadsheet based changes that most of the time don't really translate well to game play most of the times pve wise and at all to pvp.

Warden, specially, is a class whose abilities tend to look better on paper than in the field and if you look at some of them right now that's saying something.

ESO_Nightingale

MacRibs wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Let's be real, this is another one of those dummy parse changes, where it might look good, but in actual application is terrible.
I do think shalks need a bit of love, that being said the arctic changes are actually really nice, and my body is ready to play a full on frost warden next patch.

They feel like spreadsheet based changes that most of the time don't really translate well to game play most of the times pve wise and at all to pvp.

Warden, specially, is a class whose abilities tend to look better on paper than in the field and if you look at some of them right now that's saying something.

deep fissure is probably one of the hardest skills to get high burst value out of in the game because it's dodgeable through LOS, CC and speed, as well as blockable and predictable. it's fine that it's predictable, honestly shalks wasn't overperforming before. it was in a solid spot. nerfing half of it to add it to the other half sounds great on paper until you realise if you miss that 2nd tick, your damage is done for. it just needs to be reverted.

Unified_Gaming

Staying objective and balanced, the changes do appear to push warden, magicka warden especially, into an awkward position in pvp particularly.

Looking at the power play fantasy ZOS goes for and how they balance classes to have similar skills but unique flavours I.e. burst skill (haunting curse, blast bones, shalks, power of the light...) there does appear to be some outliers at present. The changes to deep fissure really become questionable when compared to it's closest neighbour, blast bones. Blast bones has a higher tip tip by a large amount often exceeding 18,000 in pvp plus recives the 10% bonus minnium on the magicka morph. This skill is fire and forget and has a 3s delay similar to blast bones. Meanwhile the new changes push the first hit of deep fissure to 10-12k and the final hit to 15-18k beyond extreme scenarios.

The changes to the initial hit has really hurt the damage and could be agrued as being too extreme. The forcing players to wait 9s to maximise the skills damage also feels frustrating as it really reinforces a simplified and less burst ordinated combat system for the class.

I'd suggest the initial hit was buffed by 10% and that the bonus on that 2nd hit is either added to 6s not 9 or they don't punish players for recasting the skill. Instead, adding a unique debuff that makes the next shalk hit do bonus damage.

Having played with it on pts and live, my damage is significantly lower in the same time windows, nearly 40% and can only be caught up by using more spamables which still results in a total nerf of damage and a nerf to sustain making it even less accessible.

Klingenlied

I do strongly agree. Did rant about how - relatively seen - Warden is way harder to play then other classes due to being centered around a skillshot. Even now I just can not get how the hardest to use skill in the game is not the hardest hitting - right now isn't hitting for any meaningful numbers at all. Activating something in a game that will fire off after 9 seconds is incredibly rare. For one because what happens in 9 seconds usually is absolutely beyond your control. Will you even be alive? Then there is the classis skill shot requirements: you have to hit it to gain any kind of benefit.

Now to fix it, of course, one could always make it auto target, kinda like blastbones. Almost guaranteeing a hit would be helpful and fix some issues. However! People generally love high skill gap gameplay and thus love skillshots. It is satisfying if you get those to work. Waiting 9 seconds though for one to come out just plain and simple sucks.

We do however have the problem of not having any cooldowns in the game. So adding cooldowns to prevent spam doesn't work. I guess that is one of the prime reasons those stronger, bursty skills did end rather clunky for some classes - and just plain and simple bad for Warden.

So yea, what can we do? Considering it is rather hard to land, the simplest solution would be a major buff to the skills damage. This alone would fix a major issue for both morphs.
If you want the skill to "feel" better, there is a lot one could do:
For one, reduce the duration until chalks come out. Waiting 9 seconds is long.
Then, changing the range to 21 or 22 meters and just move the hitbox behind the warden for the added amount would make dodging them by just some simple movement somewhat harder already. Or just go so far to make it 27x9 - pretty large but can't profit from further range increases. This way this skill see a lot of extra hits and utility because just running from it would not be that easy any more.

But yea, that is just my agreeing 2 cents on this topic.

MindOfTheSwarm

Aldoss wrote: »

As I was worried about, ZOS waited until the last half of the PTS cycle to drop some absolute bomb shells on us, changes that no one asked for, that completely change the playstyle of magden DD.

These changes are so shattering, there's no possible way to get enough feedback to do anything about them before they go live, and that makes me feel so defeated. I despise this change and I suspect I'm not alone.

The Shalks in the Room

I was finally able to find some folks to duel on the PTS to get some adequate understanding as to how the Week 4 DF change felt. Kudos to ZOS for making such a drastic change to PvP oriented magdens, during one of the only 2 PvP events, so no one is on PTS right now to even test things...

Deep Fissure is the most important aspect of playing a Magden. Scorch in general IS Warden. Everything we are is tied to the rhythm and feel of this skill. Anyone who hated casting Scorch every 3 seconds (or every 6 for Sub Assault) didn't play the class to begin with. This comes in contrast to classes such as Templar, who despite having one of the most iconic spammables in the game, are still able to function entirely without their class defining skill. As it happens, RangePlar is looking to be S Tier for next patch. This just isn't the case for Warden. When you ruin Deep Fissure, you will ruin Magden.

Week 4 not only changed the numbers of this skill, it also affected its rhythm. In doing so, it has completely destroyed what I believe is the entire feel of being a Magden DD.

The Compromise

For whatever reason, the decision was made to revert the timing back to what the Warden community asked for (3 seconds), but the devs kept the 6 second final hit attached the skill. Their idea was to give Warden a cost/benefit to waiting for this skill to land by giving it a 20% damage bonus.

As much as that sounds great, someone at the table decided that to account for that new power, the first hit must be nerfed to the tune of 14%. This might be the most destructive aspect of this change and desperately needs to go. Let me explain:

By nerfing the first hit, it's no longer "fun" to use this skill. Aiming it was already a challenge, but now, knowing that the damage of the first hit is less than a spammable, the necessity to make that hit land becomes the most important priority of a Warden, but not in a fun way.

It becomes literally everything. The anxiety this has induced is a tragedy. Playing my Magden on the PTS was the opposite of fun.

Missing a shalk hit is now deeply dissatisfying, whereas on live, it feels more like an "oops" moment. Everything about the power of a Magden relies on that first hit landing and if it doesn't, you need to redo the entire 9 second setup, knowing that your last 3 seconds were a waste.

This compromise is uncalled for. Magden DDs are the worst performing class in PvP. I don't really know how else to say this. We deserve no compromises for power buffs to our class. We are a unicorn in Cyro and a meme in PvP. We need straight buffs. Period.

If that first hit didn't have a damage nerf (on top of the illogical nerfs we already sustained in Week 1), then maybe I'd agree that having the bonus 6 second hit gain a 20% buff is interesting.

In that scenario, waiting the 6 seconds becomes an option. It's a tool to be used at the discretion of the user. The comprised first hit ruined that. It's a terrible experience and I'm 100% convinced that no one at ZOS actually played with this skill before pushing it through to the Week 4 patch notes.

The Aiming Problem

Scorch in general has to be aimed and it is unique in that, once casted, there is a very real, set time when your burst MUST happen. Not CAN happen. MUST.

This is in stark contrast to nearly every other class in the game. DKs get to choose when to unleash a triple stacked whip. Nightblades get to choose when to fire their spectral bow. Necros get to choose when to pop their graveyard. Magsorcs get to chose when to fire their frag proc and can time it with their curse (although, why would anyone this patch not run Crystal Weapon? There's a reason why it's getting nerfed).

Plars are unique in that their 6 second burst is also on a set timer. The difference here being that their burst is all but guaranteed, so long as their target doesn't cleanse it.

Same with Necro blastbones. They're on a set timer that cannot be changed once cast, but outside of the notorious bug where the skele sometimes just stands there and looks at you before despawning, it will 100% hit something.

Warden gets none of those benefits for all of the drawbacks and doesn't even benefit from having this skill be given the power it deserves.

The second DF hit is completely underwhelming. Knowing that my burst is locked away from me for 9 seconds, but also exactly 9 seconds, feels wrong. It's basically the only thing I can focus on, yet for that focus, I MIGHT land a hit that deals 8-9k. Meanwhile, every 6 seconds I'm being obliterated by 12-14k purifying lights, or being pummeled by 5-7k concealed weapons.

It's clear to me that no one at ZOS played any amount of time with this change. It seemed good, so they wrote it down on paper, and that was that.

The Debuffed Debuff

Deep Fissure finally gained some much needed love by gaining Major and Minor Breach. That is a perfect example of a welcomed change. We needed something, you gave us something. It wasn't perfect, but it worked instantly.

Tying breach in general to our primary class defining, delayed burst skill is up to debate. I'm sure some people love it while others hate it. I'm not necessarily happy that our primary power debuff is locked behind a skill that can, and does, miss frequently. But I'm fine with it. I clearly play Magden right now.

However, by nerfing the damage of our first hit, literally EVERYTHING relies on that first hit landing. On live, our true burst is locked behind a 6 second minimum window. We cast DF, make it land, it applies Major and Minor Breach, we cast it again, and get it to land. This is completely fine as is. If you miss one, "oops" you done messed up. Try again. 3 seconds total wasted isn't that big of a deal. The debuf still lasts for 3x longer than the cast time. You'd have to miss 3 DFs in a row to have Maj/Min Breach fall off.

On PTS, this is no longer the case. If that first hit misses, you MUST try again. Otherwise, you are waiting double the amount of time for a hit that may or may not land and doesn't even benefit from its most important aspect, 9k penetration.

What's more? Major and Minor Breach last for 10 seconds and get applied after each hit. The entire combo last 9 seconds, meaning you have exactly 1 second of leeway before you MUST load DF again, otherwise you lose out on the possibility of your next debuff hit missing (which it does so frequently).

This is counter-intuitive to the play style of a Magden. We have no class execute outside of our ultimate. Let's not get into why no Magden runs Guardian, just know that basically no Magden does. They're going to use Northern Storm or Dawnbreaker. Meteor sort of works, but since we have no way to ensure it goes through block, it is the weakest ultimate choice for a Magden.

In real world application, you plan out your combo, you land the debuff hit, and begin planning out the next 6 second burst. When that proc hit lands, if it didn't kill them right then and there, it's all you can do to just spam your spammable (I like Blood for Blood currently) to seal the deal. That's at least 1 GCD, and its the only GCD you're given before Major and Minor Breach fall off. If you choose to not reload DF after it lands, you MUST land that next DF debuff hit, otherwise you lose out on the choice to let the 6 second buff hit continue, because you know that Maj/Min Breach will fall off before it lands. This continues in a circle. It's really not fun at all to use or to play with.

The Miracle

We need a miracle this Monday. I don't really know who is pulling our strings or why there doesn't appear to be anyone at ZOS that sympathizes with our struggle, but it feels very defeating right now to watch my favorite playstyle get torn apart and dismembered. It's even more defeating knowing that these changes are going to go live because I have no faith that this post will even be read, let alone acted upon, in the short time frame that we have to save us.

Magden needs nothing more than straight buffs. We deserve nothing less. Revert the damage nerfs you enacted on Scorch from the start and remove the terrible 14% damage nerf that you applied to the first hit. It's so redundant. That hit already does less the first time because Major and Minor Breach have yet to applied.

If you won't just give us the 20% buff that this skill deserves, with no strings attached, then leave the 6 second secondary hit as a bonus. Let it become a tool that we can utilize when the timing works for us. Otherwise, let us freaking play our class like we have been and fell in love with for the last several years.

Look at all the feedback that us Magdens have provided you for insight as to what we need to even be competitive. We're not asking to go from bottom barrel to S Tier. We just want our class to make sense again.

If Deep Fissure makes it live, I will 100% be done with Magden.

The Data

Here are some CMX reports from some of my duels.

This first opponent was a rangeplar. I never lasted longer than 90 seconds against this player with how much pressure they had.

In 60 seconds, I was only able to land 3 buffed DF hits on my best attempt. The others were 2. I cannot stress enough, this is absolutely awful.

Meanwhile, this plar is able to hit 8 purifying lights on average in 60 seconds, that average over 8k per hit. If you account for every DF hit, not just the buffed hits, I'm averaging 4-5 hits TOTAL in 60 seconds and they only average out to about 5k or less.

My second opponent was another rangeplar (so hot right now) but arguably less skilled. I landed every DF against this target, which basically never happens. That's 30 total DF hits, but they average out to only 4060 per hit. I did get one amazing crit with Major Brittle proccd for over 9k. This also never happens and didn't happen again over the 1hr+ that I dueled.

On the second duel with this player I switched back to Blood for Blood. They also changed their style and I started missing DFs again. 4 of my 9 second buff hits missed. Absolutely devastating to spend so much time lining up a combo, and then get javelined right before it goes off and it misses.

My 3rd opponent was a magblade, also looking really strong next patch. They were zooming around so much I actually missed my debuff DF hits more. I never saw a hit greater than 6.5k. Meanwhile, they slapped me with an 8k concealed weapon and landed a 15k Assassin's Will.

I switched back to live to remind myself what Magden felt like.

My first opponent was clearly a Broakensoul no stealth magblade. They were also zooming around like mad and I was only able to land 6 DFs in the entire 2.5 minute duel. They smacked me with a 10k concealed weapon, but even then that 9200 crit Blood for Blood with the DF hit sealed it.

My second opponent on live was a stamplar. Also arguably not that skilled. I landed 5 of my 7 DFs against them.

I'm not an amazing dueler and I'm not suggesting that magden needs to become an amazing 1v1 class. I'm just trying to quantify the dread that I feel when playing magden on the PTS vs live. It's absolutely awful. Playing magden on live feels like I'm the one driving my gameplay. I hit shalks nearly 3 seconds. It's fun for me and I suspect it's fun for every other magden too. I'm the one in control of my burst window because the window isn't that massive. I can count to 3 in my head and be pretty close to the actual timing. I literally cannot imagine if I'll ever be able to "feel" what 9 seconds is. I don't think there's any amount of time experience that will do that for me. And the worst part is, the benefit for losing our 3 second window for a 9 second one is barely noticeable.

If you want to give me an option of a bigger burst, be my guest. I like options. What I don't like is this gutted mess of my most important skill.

This key skill has been decimated and, if it goes live, will ruin whatever enjoyment I had left in my magden.

Stop nerfing us. Stop giving us hoops to jump through to not even be somewhat competitive in the combat environment of this game. We don't deserve these nerfs and drastic changes to the very soul of what it is to be magden.

Please do something amazing this Monday. Every magden is awaiting this week's notes with such anxiety.

You make a very strong case for Magden, but like you said Templars can play without jabs and still function well. The fact that Magden 100% rely on one skill just shows that there is something fundamentally wrong with its design in the first place.

MacRibs

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

The changes to the initial hit has really hurt the damage and could be agrued as being too extreme. The forcing players to wait 9s to maximise the skills damage also feels frustrating as it really reinforces a simplified and less burst ordinated combat system for the class.

I'd suggest the initial hit was buffed by 10% and that the bonus on that 2nd hit is either added to 6s not 9 or they don't punish players for recasting the skill. Instead, adding a unique debuff that makes the next shalk hit do bonus damage accessible.

This is the best solution, the first hit should not be nerfed.

The other way they could fix it would be to have deep fissure work similarly to Budding Seeds, have the 3/6 secs but let the player activate the ability again to cause it to instantly deal the 2nd hit dealing less or more damage the faster the player activates the ability again, at least it would give somewhat better control of the 2nd hit to the player.

Honestly at this point I wouldn't mind just it being left as is on live.

Nathyiel

Klingenlied wrote: »

We do however have the problem of not having any cooldowns in the game. So adding cooldowns to prevent spam doesn't work. I guess that is one of the prime reasons those stronger, bursty skills did end rather clunky for some classes - and just plain and simple bad for Warden.

They can resolve it "easily".

• Remove the anim cancel on LA/HA so they became the new "spam" skill.
• Change the actual "spam" skill into damage/utility skill with cooldown, proc or stack mechanism.

It will slow down the game (less APM) but it will open room for new build. And don't listen to the pro-weaving who are just stalling the game.


Back to Deep Fissure.
The main problem is : good AOE damage with the most important debuff (major+minor breach in 1 spell ).
(And the delay is a band aid design).

Either you keep the burst part, then it need some kind of cooldown. Then major+minor breach need to move to 1 or 2 skill.
Either you keep the debuff then Warden need to have a new damage burst somewhere. (there's room for a small burst skill in the staff tree, for example).

I think it's important to keep the small burst feeling for the Warden.

MindOfTheSwarm

I think the fix is to take the values on live and nerf it’s damage by about 25%. But then you take that number that was nerfed and put it into Winter’s Revenge and Fetcher Infection. Transferring the damage and spreading it out a bit so that it isn’t a make or break ability.

For Example:

Let’s say Fissure deals 10k (for easy math)

Bring it down to about 7500 or maybe 8500.

Then buff the live values of Fetcher and Winter’s by a comparable amount per second. Winter’s especially needed buffing from live values.

However, ZoS decided not only to hit Scorch but also hit DoT’s too AND the passives nerf on top. Magden’s got taken to the cleaners, Stamsorc too. I can understand taking Scorches massive impact down a notch but if you’re gonna nerf Scorch you need to move that damage somewhere else to compensate.

Klingenlied

Nathyiel wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

We do however have the problem of not having any cooldowns in the game. So adding cooldowns to prevent spam doesn't work. I guess that is one of the prime reasons those stronger, bursty skills did end rather clunky for some classes - and just plain and simple bad for Warden.

They can resolve it "easily".

• Remove the anim cancel on LA/HA so they became the new "spam" skill.
• Change the actual "spam" skill into damage/utility skill with cooldown, proc or stack mechanism.

It will slow down the game (less APM) but it will open room for new build. And don't listen to the pro-weaving who are just stalling the game.


Back to Deep Fissure.
The main problem is : good AOE damage with the most important debuff (major+minor breach in 1 spell ).
(And the delay is a band aid design).

Either you keep the burst part, then it need some kind of cooldown. Then major+minor breach need to move to 1 or 2 skill.
Either you keep the debuff then Warden need to have a new damage burst somewhere. (there's room for a small burst skill in the staff tree, for example).

I think it's important to keep the small burst feeling for the Warden.

Generally speaking in regards to combat system changes: Yes, I would not mind a complete overhaul - but this is unrealistic. ESO combat has some ups and to be better, they would needa redo almost everything, including a lot of animations. That is work that costs money - a lot actually - and doesn't give a back anything that can easily be calculated.

Now for the Deep Fissure: Wardens don't care about the debuffs. Strip those away for all I care. We got the highest skill ceiling, hardest to use skill shot in the game that just got even harder to use. As a dev, you HAVE to acknowledge difficulty in a class kit when it comes to balance. YOu can not say: Ah well, in a real combat situation this skill about 30% of the time, but will still retain the same - or even less - damage then some other skills that are easier to use. That is just plain wrong.

So if the debuff is an issue - remove it for pure damage for all I care. It is not needed in PvE anyway and I am sick of only being a group buff or debuff bot in PvP.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I think the fix is to take the values on live and nerf it’s damage by about 25%. But then you take that number that was nerfed and put it into Winter’s Revenge and Fetcher Infection. Transferring the damage and spreading it out a bit so that it isn’t a make or break ability.

For Example:

Let’s say Fissure deals 10k (for easy math)

Bring it down to about 7500 or maybe 8500.

Then buff the live values of Fetcher and Winter’s by a comparable amount per second. Winter’s especially needed buffing from live values.

However, ZoS decided not only to hit Scorch but also hit DoT’s too AND the passives nerf on top. Magden’s got taken to the cleaners, Stamsorc too. I can understand taking Scorches massive impact down a notch but if you’re gonna nerf Scorch you need to move that damage somewhere else to compensate.

I see a massive issue with spreading deep fissure power. If the skill looses power and stays difficult to use, you will no longer have reason to slot it. Especially for magica, you might want to start skipping the skill. No need for extra pen from animal skills. No need for a skill that likely won't hit anything neither. And I mean - where is that "massive" impact? It just didn't exist in any iteration of this skill for quiet some time now.

Nathyiel

Klingenlied wrote: »

Generally speaking in regards to combat system changes: Yes, I would not mind a complete overhaul - but this is unrealistic. ESO combat has some ups and to be better, they would needa redo almost everything, including a lot of animations. That is work that costs money - a lot actually - and doesn't give a back anything that can easily be calculated.

Since the weaving problem is basically animation canceling, they can keep most animation. And it's easier to rework existing animation than creating from zero.
(edit) They can also using NPC animation, like all those fancy skill that we don't have access.

But this kind of change would be for new chapter, not small patch. There's a possibility they are working on it "just in case".

Klingenlied

Nathyiel wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

Generally speaking in regards to combat system changes: Yes, I would not mind a complete overhaul - but this is unrealistic. ESO combat has some ups and to be better, they would needa redo almost everything, including a lot of animations. That is work that costs money - a lot actually - and doesn't give a back anything that can easily be calculated.

Since the weaving problem is basically animation canceling, they can keep most animation. And it's easier to rework existing animation than creating from zero.
(edit) They can also using NPC animation, like all those fancy skill that we don't have access.

But this kind of change would be for new chapter, not small patch. There's a possibility they are working on it "just in case".

In regards to industry standards, ESO animations are just plain bad to look at
So if there is any reason to remake this stuff - it would be to make the game more beautiful to look at. It possibly could have very beneficiary effects - I mean a ESO that is nice to look at in the world of streaming and stuff? Hell yea! Even though ESO has far superior visuals compared to FFXIV, FFXIV has by far superior animation quality. And I would instantly say: Animation matters more then resolution or perfect image clarity. However, FFXIV has a lot of visual issues (old engine and stuff), so both games are actually hard to compare in this aspect.

Anyway, though I'd love some remake in this regard and in the combat system regard, I deem it very, very unlikely.

I mean what would you do if you really wanted to go for a rework? If possible, you move into the ideas and suggestions the playerbase wished for to create class identies that players wish while iterating on the new system. Everything that works, you will of course implement in the new system as well, everything that does not, you scrap. I do not see them do this. I see them reducing server load with some changes. I see them removing some burst from PvP. Some nice changes for the game as a whole. But they do it in a way the community did not wish for. So that's the point - I don't think they care about us.

Nathyiel

Dev generally only care for feedback for specific things like bugs and macro design (globally positive, need to look more at PvP, etc).
They did it because of the vocal minority bias. They have class representative but they are only another points of view.
Test server help them to get specific data when they runs specific test, or what player have build and test. And bug of course.

I don't say that our discussion are for nothing but it's clearly not their main source of feedback.

AS for FFXIV, I agree. It's also interesting to note that its gameplay is the opposite of ESO. Slow paced, very restricted class, no choice at all. I think ESO is more close to KR mmo like BDO.
ESO gameplay diversity is very unique. It's one of his main feature but also is main handicap. Too much diversity is as bad as too restrictive identity.

Even without big change, more defined class identity would be welcome. I don't speak of Cold or Bleed, etc. But also of class gameplay.

And there's the comparison with NPC class.
For example, there's Cryomancers (Frost Mage) in game. They have 3 spell : Ice Arrow, summon Ice Barrier and Winter's Reach. None are available to the player. So player want to reciprocate it with Warden but can't. Those spell could work fine in the Destruction or the Mage Guild skills.

It's just an example on the Warden but there's other case. Look like Dev wanted player to have unique skill compared to NPC.

Aldoss

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I think the fix is to take the values on live and nerf it’s damage by about 25%. But then you take that number that was nerfed and put it into Winter’s Revenge and Fetcher Infection. Transferring the damage and spreading it out a bit so that it isn’t a make or break ability.

For Example:

Let’s say Fissure deals 10k (for easy math)

Bring it down to about 7500 or maybe 8500.

Then buff the live values of Fetcher and Winter’s by a comparable amount per second. Winter’s especially needed buffing from live values.

However, ZoS decided not only to hit Scorch but also hit DoT’s too AND the passives nerf on top. Magden’s got taken to the cleaners, Stamsorc too. I can understand taking Scorches massive impact down a notch but if you’re gonna nerf Scorch you need to move that damage somewhere else to compensate.

I'm against this.

All I want is for ZOS to revert the damage nerfs to this skill before patch goes live.

This skill doesn't deserve being nerfed by 8%, then being nerfed because of the advanced species nerf, THEN being nerfed a further 14% on the first (normal 3 sec) hit, all to make way for a 20% buff after 9 seconds.

The compromise proposition isn't needed at all. Let it hit like normal so magden's current play style is unchanged for U35 and then give us the OPTION to abstain from recasting the skill to utilize the 6 second bonus hit.

Magden is such a low performing class. Take the hoops away.

Some people (not on this forum) are saying that this skill is going to be bonkers next patch, but when I ask for more detail as to why they think that, they fall silent. Maybe I'm wrong? I don't know. I guess we'll see, but I'd love to see some numbers from someone else who has actually tested this skill on the PTS to back up their argument.

Mr_Stach

The Real miracle is that it's taken me this long to just Uninstall ESO. It's kind of refreshing