The Actual Dps Loss?

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

Are there anymore 3 mil parses from pts that anyone is willing to share for comparison?

Tannus15 · July 2022

3m live, 56k

3m pts, 45k

AngelicaDLynn · July 2022

festegios wrote: »

You’ll prob end up having to slot a heal in content as well due to the changes to heal tick frequency. Dropping dps even lower

I think that is something that many do not realize at this stage (quite honestly I had not thought of that myself as I usually play a magplar).

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

AngelicaDLynn wrote: »

festegios wrote: »

You’ll prob end up having to slot a heal in content as well due to the changes to heal tick frequency. Dropping dps even lower

I think that is something that many do not realize at this stage (quite honestly I had not thought of that myself as I usually play a magplar).

Taking into account that magplar jab heals were also axed, almost certainly.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

3m live, 56k

3m pts, 45k

Thank you for posting! Interesting how light attacks are still the second highest source of damage on those metrics.

Tannus15 · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

3m live, 56k

3m pts, 45k

Thank you for posting! Interesting how light attacks are still the second highest source of damage on those metrics.

i'm using the maelstrom destro staff back bar:

knock that down an extra 1300 dps for actual light attack damage. so, 4k dps. Also for those people doing the math i have 65 light attacks in 66 seconds, that's pretty close to a perfect weave with no missed light attacks and 62 crystal weapon hits for 65 light attacks, which puts it as only 3 light attacks didn't have the double hit from crystal weapon.

Something i found quite surprising is how "over turned" barbed trap is. you can only see 2 of it's 3 different dps, but the trap dot + the hemorrhaging dot combined do more dps than any other skill that's not crystal weapon, including the storm atro. Trap is more dps than the sorc single target ultimate.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

3m live, 56k

3m pts, 45k

Thank you for posting! Interesting how light attacks are still the second highest source of damage on those metrics.

i'm using the maelstrom destro staff back bar:

knock that down an extra 1300 dps for actual light attack damage. so, 4k dps. Also for those people doing the math i have 65 light attacks in 66 seconds, that's pretty close to a perfect weave with no missed light attacks and 62 crystal weapon hits for 65 light attacks, which puts it as only 3 light attacks didn't have the double hit from crystal weapon.

Something i found quite surprising is how "over turned" barbed trap is. you can only see 2 of it's 3 different dps, but the trap dot + the hemorrhaging dot combined do more dps than any other skill that's not crystal weapon, including the storm atro. Trap is more dps than the sorc single target ultimate.

Ohhhh wow. That is even more interesting. Lol. How balanced....

mavfin · July 2022

Maybe if we didn't have so many 90K people, they wouldn't be pushing pushing everything to go so fast all the time, and maybe normal players could actually run a normal dungeon w/o having to go at ludicrous speed because of some meta player...

The sky is falling for some, but I think it should fall on them. YMMV.

Tannus15 · July 2022

mavfin wrote: »

Maybe if we didn't have so many 90K people, they wouldn't be pushing pushing everything to go so fast all the time, and maybe normal players could actually run a normal dungeon w/o having to go at ludicrous speed because of some meta player...

The sky is falling for some, but I think it should fall on them. YMMV.

what? you think lowering damage is going to make people stop and smell the roses when doing normal dungeons?

mavfin · July 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

what? you think lowering damage is going to make people stop and smell the roses when doing normal dungeons?

No more ludicrous than some of the current claims.

I hope U35 comes soon.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

mavfin wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

what? you think lowering damage is going to make people stop and smell the roses when doing normal dungeons?

No more ludicrous than some of the current claims.

I hope U35 comes soon.

What's going to happen is the general playerbase, you know the one's that don't go on Reddit, the Forums, they don't Read Patch Notes, they don't watch YouTube, they just play the game, they will do 25% less damage. They are going to think the game feels weird, their damage suddenly drops off, it's going to feel bad.

That's the real issue, it feels bad. You are going to have a harder time to do the content you did before, and it's going to suck.

mavfin · July 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

What's going to happen is the general playerbase, you know the one's that don't go on Reddit, the Forums, they don't Read Patch Notes, they don't watch YouTube, they just play the game, they will do 25% less damage. They are going to think the game feels weird, their damage suddenly drops off, it's going to feel bad.

That's the real issue, it feels bad. You are going to have a harder time to do the content you did before, and it's going to suck.

Nah, they won't even notice. They'll just push the button a couple more times, especially if they have companions who will heal them. They won't care at all. That's what you're forgetting. The huge no-group playerbase won't care or notice, because of companions.

SgtSilock · July 2022

Have they ever listened to feedback in the past or do they just do their own thing?

If the latter, are forums even necessary?

starkerealm · July 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

what? you think lowering damage is going to make people stop and smell the roses when doing normal dungeons?

No more ludicrous than some of the current claims.

I hope U35 comes soon.

What's going to happen is the general playerbase, you know the one's that don't go on Reddit, the Forums, they don't Read Patch Notes, they don't watch YouTube, they just play the game, they will do 25% less damage. They are going to think the game feels weird, their damage suddenly drops off, it's going to feel bad.

That's the real issue, it feels bad. You are going to have a harder time to do the content you did before, and it's going to suck.

I'm going to nitpick here. At the bottom end (people who roll with 30k or less now) the drop seems to be closer to 50%. Granted, it's kinda hard to get concrete numbers from those players because they don't parse to begin with, and don't pay attention to their numbers.

mavfin wrote: »

Nah, they won't even notice. They'll just push the button a couple more times, especially if they have companions who will heal them. They won't care at all. That's what you're forgetting. The huge no-group playerbase won't care or notice, because of companions.

They'll notice. Especially if they're mostly throwing out light attacks (which is pretty common with that crowd), because LA damage dropped off a cliff.

merpins · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

3m live, 56k

3m pts, 45k

Thank you for posting! Interesting how light attacks are still the second highest source of damage on those metrics.

Not really. Light attacks got nerfed heavily, but AOEs and DOTs got the worst of it. With them proccing only once every two seconds and only dealing on average 2k damage per tick (before crits), light attacks deal double or triple the damage output in the same timeframe.

starkerealm · July 2022

SgtSilock wrote: »

Have they ever listened to feedback in the past or do they just do their own thing?

If the latter, are forums even necessary?

Like, two or three times in eight years.

They do take suggestions from the forums. They used to take feedback on proposed balance changes, but that mostly dried up when Wrobel left.

Pevey · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

SgtSilock wrote: »

Have they ever listened to feedback in the past or do they just do their own thing?

If the latter, are forums even necessary?

Like, two or three times in eight years.

They do take suggestions from the forums. They used to take feedback on proposed balance changes, but that mostly dried up when Wrobel left.

They did not listen on shields. They were still gutted. And the previous LA changes were not in the normal PTS cycle. It was a separate test.

SgtSilock · July 2022

Pevey wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

SgtSilock wrote: »

Have they ever listened to feedback in the past or do they just do their own thing?

If the latter, are forums even necessary?

Like, two or three times in eight years.

They do take suggestions from the forums. They used to take feedback on proposed balance changes, but that mostly dried up when Wrobel left.

They did not listen on shields. They were still gutted. And the previous LA changes were not in the normal PTS cycle. It was a separate test.

They probably should start taking player feedback more seriously, as the players are the life blood of the game. When your body is telling you something is wrong, you listen to it.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

3m live, 56k

3m pts, 45k

Thank you for posting! Interesting how light attacks are still the second highest source of damage on those metrics.

Not really. Light attacks got nerfed heavily, but AOEs and DOTs got the worst of it. With them proccing only once every two seconds and only dealing on average 2k damage per tick (before crits), light attacks deal double or triple the damage output in the same timeframe.

It looks like LA get nerfed light and HA heavely

))

Yes baby even nerfs are heavy !

KMarble · July 2022

FYI: According to the patch notes released this morning for the LIVE SERVERS, the dummies weren't giving the right numbers.

Fixed an issue that caused training dummies to report inflated DPS values.

Emphasis mine. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/612045/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-0-8#latest (scroll down to housing)

I like to remind you all that I saw a drop of 22% between live and PTS while fighting a World Boss. I did not parse on a dummy.

Make of this info what you will.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

3m live, 56k

3m pts, 45k

Thank you for posting! Interesting how light attacks are still the second highest source of damage on those metrics.

Not really. Light attacks got nerfed heavily, but AOEs and DOTs got the worst of it. With them proccing only once every two seconds and only dealing on average 2k damage per tick (before crits), light attacks deal double or triple the damage output in the same timeframe.

Point in case that these changes once again fail every stated goal.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

mavfin wrote: »

Maybe if we didn't have so many 90K people, they wouldn't be pushing pushing everything to go so fast all the time, and maybe normal players could actually run a normal dungeon w/o having to go at ludicrous speed because of some meta player...

The sky is falling for some, but I think it should fall on them. YMMV.

I feel the same toward people like you who blame a tiny percentage of the player base that actually tries to improve for all your perceived slights... I am sick of the "endgame is ruining eso" narratives. Selfish people will be selfish regardless of their skill, as often as I have seen it on both ends.

That being said, I have no wish to quarrel over that point. I am interested in gathering data here from the pts only.

Lumsdenml · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Hold on. Are you saying that people who do 25-30k dps are getting 18k dps from light attacks???

kringled_1 · July 2022

Lumsdenml wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Hold on. Are you saying that people who do 25-30k dps are getting 18k dps from light attacks???

The ones who are doing 10 lights and occasionally casting an ability will definitely be hard hit by the proposed changes. But there's a lot of different ways to have very low damage and some will feel it more than others.

Lumsdenml · July 2022

kringled_1 wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Hold on. Are you saying that people who do 25-30k dps are getting 18k dps from light attacks???

The ones who are doing 10 lights and occasionally casting an ability will definitely be hard hit by the proposed changes. But there's a lot of different ways to have very low damage and some will feel it more than others.

I guess we have no way of actually knowing, but I would think that someone who is just spamming light attacks and occasionally casting an ability have a generally low weapon/spell damage and their LA isn't probably much over the flat amount that it is going to be changed to.

I think that, by far, the people most affected by this change are going to be the people who have perfected their rotations and truly maxed out their dps. The 80k+ dps. If you have not maxed out your weapon/spell damage and do not flawlessly weave in your light attacks, the changes will be minimal.

For example, if you are doing 120k dsp, you may only do 95 or 100 after the change, but if you are doing 30kdps, you may only do 27k after the change.

Tannus15 · July 2022

Lumsdenml wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Hold on. Are you saying that people who do 25-30k dps are getting 18k dps from light attacks???

The ones who are doing 10 lights and occasionally casting an ability will definitely be hard hit by the proposed changes. But there's a lot of different ways to have very low damage and some will feel it more than others.

I guess we have no way of actually knowing, but I would think that someone who is just spamming light attacks and occasionally casting an ability have a generally low weapon/spell damage and their LA isn't probably much over the flat amount that it is going to be changed to.

I think that, by far, the people most affected by this change are going to be the people who have perfected their rotations and truly maxed out their dps. The 80k+ dps. If you have not maxed out your weapon/spell damage and do not flawlessly weave in your light attacks, the changes will be minimal.

For example, if you are doing 120k dsp, you may only do 95 or 100 after the change, but if you are doing 30kdps, you may only do 27k after the change.

this would be true except a lot of the people doing 30k dps are using off meta builds like lightning staff heavy attack builds which rely on heavy attacks and dots and those builds got nerfed into the ground, like 50% dps loss.

on PTS now an insane % of your dps comes down to your spammable.

here is a parse i did with julianos and orders wrath to see where things stand without the meta sets

52% of my dps is accounted for with direct damage abilities, crushing weapon, crystal frags, light attack and daedric prey.

if you look at what i'm actually doing during the parse those skills are taking up 184 out of 230 skills, leaving just 46 skills for scamp, atro, wall, hurricane and trap

so this is where the news gets really bad.
lets call the "floor" the dps you can get from just dots. if you take my total dps and subtract that 52% you're left with 42k dps. that's all you get from dots and trap and atro etc.
so we have a dot floor of 42k dps.
now there is literally nothing left to do except cast crushing weapon and frags when it procs and prey every 6 seconds. the only way to improve your dps is to do it faster.

sure, they nerfed light attacks, but they made light attack weaving more important than ever. The most important thing to be doing is hitting you're spammable as fast as humanly possible.

my weave average is 0.03, total time list to weave over the almost 4 minute parse was just under 7 seconds. when you take into account my 240ms latency, i'm very fast. when you take in the amount of "missed" light attacks, i'm very very good at killing a dummy.

you will be able to draw a linear line between how fast you can "mash buttons" and your dps once this update goes live.

fun fact, in all my time playing eso, the update where light attack weaving was the least important was when dots were OP. missing light attacks meant almost nothing as long as you hit your dot timers. This update is the opposite of that.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

Tannus15 wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I think these changes are the first wave to reduce the gap; I'm sure another wave will come in and further decrease the gap.

The problem with that is, it doesn't reduce the gap. If you're losing 10% at 100k, you're at 90k. Okay, fine. (Except, what's actually happening is, people are losing closer to 15-20%. But, that's not a problem right now.) If you're somewhere around 25k-30k, you're not losing 10%, you're losing 50%-60%.

Hold on. Are you saying that people who do 25-30k dps are getting 18k dps from light attacks???

The ones who are doing 10 lights and occasionally casting an ability will definitely be hard hit by the proposed changes. But there's a lot of different ways to have very low damage and some will feel it more than others.

I guess we have no way of actually knowing, but I would think that someone who is just spamming light attacks and occasionally casting an ability have a generally low weapon/spell damage and their LA isn't probably much over the flat amount that it is going to be changed to.

I think that, by far, the people most affected by this change are going to be the people who have perfected their rotations and truly maxed out their dps. The 80k+ dps. If you have not maxed out your weapon/spell damage and do not flawlessly weave in your light attacks, the changes will be minimal.

For example, if you are doing 120k dsp, you may only do 95 or 100 after the change, but if you are doing 30kdps, you may only do 27k after the change.

this would be true except a lot of the people doing 30k dps are using off meta builds like lightning staff heavy attack builds which rely on heavy attacks and dots and those builds got nerfed into the ground, like 50% dps loss.

on PTS now an insane % of your dps comes down to your spammable.

here is a parse i did with julianos and orders wrath to see where things stand without the meta sets

52% of my dps is accounted for with direct damage abilities, crushing weapon, crystal frags, light attack and daedric prey.

if you look at what i'm actually doing during the parse those skills are taking up 184 out of 230 skills, leaving just 46 skills for scamp, atro, wall, hurricane and trap

so this is where the news gets really bad.
lets call the "floor" the dps you can get from just dots. if you take my total dps and subtract that 52% you're left with 42k dps. that's all you get from dots and trap and atro etc.
so we have a dot floor of 42k dps.
now there is literally nothing left to do except cast crushing weapon and frags when it procs and prey every 6 seconds. the only way to improve your dps is to do it faster.

sure, they nerfed light attacks, but they made light attack weaving more important than ever. The most important thing to be doing is hitting you're spammable as fast as humanly possible.

my weave average is 0.03, total time list to weave over the almost 4 minute parse was just under 7 seconds. when you take into account my 240ms latency, i'm very fast. when you take in the amount of "missed" light attacks, i'm very very good at killing a dummy.

you will be able to draw a linear line between how fast you can "mash buttons" and your dps once this update goes live.

fun fact, in all my time playing eso, the update where light attack weaving was the least important was when dots were OP. missing light attacks meant almost nothing as long as you hit your dot timers. This update is the opposite of that.

Thank you for the info! Nerfing heavy attacks is certainly one of the more baffling changes. I agree with all you've said here.

Necrotech_Master · July 2022

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the dots nerf extends to all gear sets that arent mentioned in the patch notes, i think i would be looking at least 30% dps loss (i dont have the pts installed to confirm with live builds)

the most important thing about dots is tick rate and dmg per tick, and both are getting reduced to the point dps using a dot is going to go down the drain

then all the class nerfs on top of the dot nerfs arent helping

That is quite true... there are far more repercussions to this than are written in the patch notes. Proc sets will either be a crutch, or obsolete altogether, depending on what is done with them. Hopefully someone with pts access can check some proc sets and provide feedback.

to come back to this point, there was some information posted about some sets in the main feedback thread

something like winters respite already has 2 sec ticks, same with pillar of nirn

(in the example of pillar of nirn, that only was registering a 2% dmg loss over where it is now, but that could be due to other factors like buffs the person had while parsing)

if this is the case though with most sets remaining virtually unchanged i would be more inclined to believe that dot procs will potentially become important for higher end gameplay (or as you say, a crutch because they are gear procs and not your own skill use)

I don't see procs as crutches now on live, but if a set offered a strong proc that operated on the current 1 second damage increments, I would be definitely clinging to that, lol. I agree with you. Thanks for the info also!

one of my toons is currently running deadly+pillar of nirn, and i regularly see 10-15k dmg ticks (so at the 2 sec tick rate that is 5k-7.5k dps equivalent, which is not negligible, especially compared to what most people were seeing the skill dmg at)

i did some other number comparisons, i saw a screencap of dagger cloak from PTS, assuming the person was a dps, and the dmg was 1550 every 2 sec which is a measly amount of dps (but the class skills were even weaker than that), on live dagger cloak already has the 2 sec tick rate and on a slightly high dmg tank setup is about 1650 dmg per 2 sec tick, which is effectively about the same

if all class/weapon dot are limited to maybe 500-1000 dps due to the tick rate, pillar of nirn doing 5k+ dps sounds a lot more attractive

pillar of nirn can mostly be up 100% of the time as well, because the proc cooldown and the dot overlap by about 1 second

gryphon reprisal is also another very high dmg dot (on a tank toon im seeing ticks of 3500-6500, with the same 2 sec tick rate)

pairing either of those with deadly, or even each other and your looking at probably 10-15k dps from just those 2 set dots, while your total dot from class skill is like what 2000 dps across 3-4 skills?

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

To reduce difference between players ZOS decided for HA players that they better nerf US - it will be much better.
We was so dissapointedly strong that our DPS nerf for 1.5 times this patch.

It is so much better for us ... .

No - i feel like it is not !

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

To reduce difference between players ZOS decided for HA players that they better nerf US - it will be much better.
We was so dissapointedly strong that our DPS nerf for 1.5 times this patch.

It is so much better for us ... .

No - i feel like it is not !

I am also a fan of heavy attack builds. This certainly is not the right direction for them!