Are these the worst PVP scenarios yet?

auz · April 2022

malistorr wrote: »

xylena_lazarow: I'm sure Zenimax knows. They can see and do analyze player metrics constantly. Of that I'm very sure. It is very obvious that the "decision makers" have not made updating the player base or communicating with them in any way (other than via marketing messaging about new DLC and crown store items you can buy) a priority or something they budget much of any money and effort to at all. The most we get is a message from Kevin or 1 of the other forum admins every few months occasionally acknowledging an issue that many players have complained about. And I mean every few months. There were a few posts about problems with heavy attacks from staves. Hundreds of people complained that ZOS broke basic game mechanics and it took them months to fix this. There were no posts or updates that I ever saw about it. The forum posts just went missing and I noticed in-game months later that things seemed mostly better. While I'm happy it's mostly fixed, the lack of communication is horribly disappointing.

ZOS knows PVP is pretty dead when the event isn't happening. I'm in Ravenwatch and last night at about 11 PM Pacific time there may have been 5-players total there. While this was the middle of the night for much of North America, it's a sign that players went elsewhere (other games). We'll see if ZOS really recodes the game or at least PVP. And by the time they do and it's improved (hopefully), ESO will already be 9-11 years old and it will be really darn hard to win players back to a game with decade-old tech vs. the thousands of competitors that will be available in the market.

I did have stalemates in no CP when using vamp3, Gaze, and Pariah with 1 offensive set. It would obviously be vs. another player with a similar setup. Also I was playing stamblade which in no CP is trash. Heals are bad and so is offense. It wasn't fun for me playing that way (defensively). I wasn't killing enough and I was still dying. So I'm using 2 offensive sets now on magplar and while I do die, at least I'm killing a lot as well. The game is more fun for me this way. There is too much defense and healing and bad class balance. I had to switch classes to be competitive.

I disagree. Not that they would have metrics players do not have access too, but that they know what to do with them. All zos responses to pvp issues for a long time seem hopelessly out of touch with pvp. They don't seem interested in doing anything to save pvp at all. Pvper suggestions and complaints are ignored constantly. The pvp community is ignored. I wouldn't hold my breath on any improvements or communication even, and if there is change, it won't be for the betterment of pvp.

Also there doesn't seem to be much point in building defensive atm. Healing is way to strong and scales of your damage and heal stacking is just a more effective way to survive. Which also means you need more damage to kill anyone.

divnyi · April 2022

auz wrote: »

They don't seem interested in doing anything to save pvp at all. Pvper suggestions and complaints are ignored constantly.

Because people suggest many different things, 95% is completely out of touch, only some are pretty OK.

Need I to remind you that proc set scaling was also requested by community for good half a year, and became a pretty good thing in the end?
Cloak rework was also requested and reworked just as requested.

Also there is another group of suggestions that require huge amount of work to implement. They may be sound even, but it doesn't look like there is a huge amount of dev capacity on their end. And if they are not joking about engine rework, it is understandable why they resort to smallest fixes, like up/down numbers here and there.

Dorkener · April 2022

It is what it is... the funniest part for me is how seemingly everyone adopted this "play it safe" mentality overnight. Like, you run into a guy in the middle of nowhere - first thing they do is rebuff, pop RR and vigor and dodgeroll towards the nearest tree/rock... in a 1v1

Then if you do the same thing (obv choose your LoS object in the opposite direction), it kind of gets into this awkward rebuffing & "staring contest". But hey, it's the "gud" approach, it just looks a bit silly at times.

divnyi · April 2022

@Dorkener it wasn't like this all the time. In DoT meta it was an intense contest of "who starts dotting first" because 1-2 GCDs mattered a lot back when you couldn't really outheal DPS. Then they nerfed DoTs by x1.3 - 2.0, and everything became this "stare at each other until you get ulti for burst" thing.

xFocused · April 2022

Dorkener wrote: »

It is what it is... the funniest part for me is how seemingly everyone adopted this "play it safe" mentality overnight. Like, you run into a guy in the middle of nowhere - first thing they do is rebuff, pop RR and vigor and dodgeroll towards the nearest tree/rock... in a 1v1 Then if you do the same thing (obv choose your LoS object in the opposite direction), it kind of gets into this awkward rebuffing & "staring contest". But hey, it's the "gud" approach, it just looks a bit silly at times.

I don't bother with these types of players, lol. I'm not going to chase you around objects and towers forever

Marginis · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

Dorkener wrote: »

It is what it is... the funniest part for me is how seemingly everyone adopted this "play it safe" mentality overnight. Like, you run into a guy in the middle of nowhere - first thing they do is rebuff, pop RR and vigor and dodgeroll towards the nearest tree/rock... in a 1v1 Then if you do the same thing (obv choose your LoS object in the opposite direction), it kind of gets into this awkward rebuffing & "staring contest". But hey, it's the "gud" approach, it just looks a bit silly at times.

I don't bother with these types of players, lol. I'm not going to chase you around objects and towers forever

As a player who doesn't like to PVP, but sometimes has to venture into Cyrodiil nevertheless, and so just wants to make it as annoying as possible to fight us instead of properly fighting back - on behalf of all players like me, thank you for not wasting your time on people like me so we can all go on with our lives.

xFocused · April 2022

Marginis wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Dorkener wrote: »

It is what it is... the funniest part for me is how seemingly everyone adopted this "play it safe" mentality overnight. Like, you run into a guy in the middle of nowhere - first thing they do is rebuff, pop RR and vigor and dodgeroll towards the nearest tree/rock... in a 1v1 Then if you do the same thing (obv choose your LoS object in the opposite direction), it kind of gets into this awkward rebuffing & "staring contest". But hey, it's the "gud" approach, it just looks a bit silly at times.

I don't bother with these types of players, lol. I'm not going to chase you around objects and towers forever

As a player who doesn't like to PVP, but sometimes has to venture into Cyrodiil nevertheless, and so just wants to make it as annoying as possible to fight us instead of properly fighting back - on behalf of all players like me, thank you for not wasting your time on people like me so we can all go on with our lives.

Yeah to me it's kinda pointless honestly, lol. If I see you're going to run circles around a tower without even trying to fight then I'm not wasting my time. Same with the rock/tree runners

Orlaxx · April 2022

Just don't get sucked into a conga line chasing some cancer build around..........they live for it

Rowjoh · April 2022

Again, one has to ask the question.

Is PVP even remotely balanced when it's commonplace that an individual or duo can out run, out heal, out sustain, yet kill on burst, large numbers of players chasing them around towers or rock areas?

The caveat to this scenario is that those chasing usually contain a fair number of uncoordinated randoms but it's also true that organised and experienced groups struggle to catch let alone beat these players.

It's obviously good fun for those that build for it and have the skill, and that's fine. And there's also the option for the opposition to just leave them alone (although in reality this never happens!).

Personally I just observe/walk away, and this isn't a complaint - just can't see any balance at all.

xFocused · April 2022

Rowjoh wrote: »

Again, one has to ask the question.

Is PVP even remotely balanced when it's commonplace that so many individuals or duo's can out run, out heal, out sustain, yet kill on burst, large numbers of players chasing them around towers or rock areas?

The caveat to this scenario is that those chasing usually contain a fair number of uncoordinated randoms but it's also true that organised and experienced groups struggle to catch let alone beat an individual or duo.

It's obviously good fun for those that build for it and have the skill, and that's fine. And there's also the option for the opposition to just leave them alone (although in reality this never happens!).

Personally I just observe/walk away, and this isn't a complaint - just can't see any balance at all.

I don't think it's balanced personally. The tower runners are a good example. They can outrun and outlive everything you drop on them, immune to stuns and immobilizations yet they can turn on you in a matter of seconds and insta-kill you. Maybe it's just everyone running the meta builds, I don't know. I'm not saying I want to kill every single player I run into but there should definitely be some sort of chance these unkillable players take SOME sort of damage

Akinos · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Again, one has to ask the question.

Is PVP even remotely balanced when it's commonplace that so many individuals or duo's can out run, out heal, out sustain, yet kill on burst, large numbers of players chasing them around towers or rock areas?

The caveat to this scenario is that those chasing usually contain a fair number of uncoordinated randoms but it's also true that organised and experienced groups struggle to catch let alone beat an individual or duo.

It's obviously good fun for those that build for it and have the skill, and that's fine. And there's also the option for the opposition to just leave them alone (although in reality this never happens!).

Personally I just observe/walk away, and this isn't a complaint - just can't see any balance at all.

I don't think it's balanced personally. The tower runners are a good example. They can outrun and outlive everything you drop on them, immune to stuns and immobilizations yet they can turn on you in a matter of seconds and insta-kill you. Maybe it's just everyone running the meta builds, I don't know. I'm not saying I want to kill every single player I run into but there should definitely be some sort of chance these unkillable players take SOME sort of damage

PvP isn't balanced. And I mean this in the most polite and non toxic way possible, but even if there was good balance in PvP people that make posts like this would still get insta killed, farmed, kited around a tower/rock by players that simply are better and have better understanding of game mechanics.

Nobody is unkillable, and cc immunity doesn't last forever. Everybody takes damage, it might not be alot of damage but anybody can die if you know how to do it.

Marginis · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Again, one has to ask the question.

Is PVP even remotely balanced when it's commonplace that so many individuals or duo's can out run, out heal, out sustain, yet kill on burst, large numbers of players chasing them around towers or rock areas?

The caveat to this scenario is that those chasing usually contain a fair number of uncoordinated randoms but it's also true that organised and experienced groups struggle to catch let alone beat an individual or duo.

It's obviously good fun for those that build for it and have the skill, and that's fine. And there's also the option for the opposition to just leave them alone (although in reality this never happens!).

Personally I just observe/walk away, and this isn't a complaint - just can't see any balance at all.

I don't think it's balanced personally. The tower runners are a good example. They can outrun and outlive everything you drop on them, immune to stuns and immobilizations yet they can turn on you in a matter of seconds and insta-kill you. Maybe it's just everyone running the meta builds, I don't know. I'm not saying I want to kill every single player I run into but there should definitely be some sort of chance these unkillable players take SOME sort of damage

Or that if they barely TAKE damage, they also hardly DO damage. I'm much more a fan of this style of balancing rather than just outright nerfing tank builds.

Akinos wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Again, one has to ask the question.

Is PVP even remotely balanced when it's commonplace that so many individuals or duo's can out run, out heal, out sustain, yet kill on burst, large numbers of players chasing them around towers or rock areas?

The caveat to this scenario is that those chasing usually contain a fair number of uncoordinated randoms but it's also true that organised and experienced groups struggle to catch let alone beat an individual or duo.

It's obviously good fun for those that build for it and have the skill, and that's fine. And there's also the option for the opposition to just leave them alone (although in reality this never happens!).

Personally I just observe/walk away, and this isn't a complaint - just can't see any balance at all.

I don't think it's balanced personally. The tower runners are a good example. They can outrun and outlive everything you drop on them, immune to stuns and immobilizations yet they can turn on you in a matter of seconds and insta-kill you. Maybe it's just everyone running the meta builds, I don't know. I'm not saying I want to kill every single player I run into but there should definitely be some sort of chance these unkillable players take SOME sort of damage

PvP isn't balanced. And I mean this in the most polite and non toxic way possible, but even if there was good balance in PvP people that make posts like this would still get insta killed, farmed, kited around a tower/rock by players that simply are better and have better understanding of game mechanics.

Nobody is unkillable, and cc immunity doesn't last forever. Everybody takes damage, it might not be alot of damage but anybody can die if you know how to do it.

As a tank player myself... you'd be surprised. Most of my tank builds are actually unkillable one on one - and don't even take any effort to play unless I'm fighting someone with top tier burst damage, in which case I put in bare minimum effort.

Rowjoh · April 2022

Yet another example this morning (PC/NA):

4 players outside Nickel v 15+ opponents on the ground as well as being regularly hit by a combo of 3 lancers, 2 meatbags, and a handful of coldfire ballistas on the walls, not even bothering to go out of range or to the traditional rock-hopping spot to break line of sight.

Just lol.

Not only unkillable but able to kill players and the NPC's, at the same time, at will.

No wonder they were bunny hopping in absolute delirium at the current state of pvp ridiculously weighted in their favour.

And just to be clear: No emperor and an even map. (Map domination can significantly increase damage and defence).

Brrrofski · April 2022

For reference, I'm one of those players that can run around for ages, pick one or two off and kill them, keep running etc.

And I still think the PvP meta has been absolutely abysmal for the past 18 months.

Part of the problem starter years ago, when ZOS tried to reduce the skill gap and brought in a meta or procs (I mean, the good players user them just as much and it was a bloodbath).

Then they got rid of them, so less skilled players starter pushing health and grouping up. So everyone stacked health.

Which got us to a place where people can rarely be burst, so can always recover.

So ZOS bring in stupid sets like DC to "combat it". So again, less skilled players will use it. But when it fails, they have no clue what to do.

Cyrodiil is 35k health and spamming AOEs. It's boring.

This patch with hybridisation of heals made recovering even easier. Which, they were warned about, but chose to ignore.

Numbers have dropped massively in PVP on Xbox. Both EU and NA. I suspect other platforms are the same.

I don't think we need to worry about this wonder fix for PvP. Nobody will be around to care by then.

Cuddlypuff · April 2022

I got to the point where I don't even enjoy "PVP" anymore, but just the bombing minigame. Whether its tether, ranged, synergy spam, harmonycro or 2H cleave bombing, there's always a way to wipe zergs in every patch. Although usually it feels like PvLag just to get your burst off in time.

BazOfWar · April 2022

noobfury wrote: »

Clearly, adjusting the risk versus reward factor would alleviate the problem somewhat.

My DK risks nothing and gets everything with a tank build including damage

My Stamsorc risks everything and gets nothing building damage and so does my NB to a lesser extent.

My DK gets beat on by a group until they finally kill it or ends up in stale mate 1v1

My Stamcorc runs away from everyone or gets killed in the blink of an eye.

I'm tired of having to build tanks on everything. I would like to build damage for a change but it never works.

Exactly this!

Classes should NOT be able to build defensively and still dish out the damage that they do.

TechMaybeHic · April 2022

My big complaints started when they reworked CP and armor weights, and moved a ton of base damage right into the character itself. Now what you get for actual offensive stats are not equivalent to defensive sets when you look at the proportion you get without vs with. You get a ton of offense but not much defense naked.

Then you throw in Procs, and having stacked damage seems obsolete.

Now they added in heal stacking though, so you probably can get away with less defense and stronger heals, outside of Cyrodiil primetime lag where all you'd then be doing is trying to keep the HOTs up. Probably why you see a discrepancy in what people think are OP based on playing peak vs off peak, vs duals and BGs

Edit: actually started for me when Procs became prevalent years ago, then they had health scaling damage and heals. That was probably as bad or worse. Kind of the same principle just a different way it was achieved.

Minalan · April 2022

Next patch isn’t going to fix this, it’s time to cancel sub, uninstall, and check back in a few months.

Rowjoh · April 2022

Another example yesterday (PC/NA).

3 faction battle at Roe with around 55 players (20 DC, 15 AD, 12 EP plus a few randoms coming and going).

Ad pop was at 2 bars, EP and DC 3 bars so not pop locked. There were no ball-groups present.

The lag was horrendous, combat bug continuous and 2 different 'slow' bugs were present (you know, the ones where you are slowed to barely moving and the other when you are running but every other step is slow giving the impression of a constipated half-wit).

This isn't a one-off unfortunately and given the consistently inconsistent and low coping threshold of the back-end and the dreadful balance, PVP isn't fit for purpose and needs a complete overhaul. Even if it means taking it offline while it's repaired or re-vamped completely.