Sieges in noCP are absolutely laughable.

divnyi · April 2022

https://youtu.be/zRXjSLnVWxA

We all hate DC, Plaguebreak - and not without a reason.
But do I need to remind you how the game looks with siege effects cleansable?

There was a garrison in this keep, using sieges to stop enemy steamroll.
They stacked heals and cleansed like as if there was no sieges at all.

OBJnoob · April 2022

I mean… it is what it is, lol. I wouldn’t honestly want to buff siege it’s pretty effective anyway. I play almost exclusively in ravenwatch (Xbox NA,) and last week almost every night there were epic fights between my guild 12 man and 1 or 2 12man red groups. We were on defense and doing WELL. It was almost entirely due to siege.

I think people standing still on a ram, not being harassed or distracted by anything else, have plenty of time and ability to deal with an oil or three. It’s pretty standard. You can literally dodge them if you want to and still be counted on the ram for most hits. Or you can just self heal through (3 is probably a bit much but then again I don’t play actual healers,) if you feel like it. But then there is that sweet sweet purge synergy. I tell you what really works… have your buddy come up and soul tether them while you’re dropping oils. Vastly different result.

The real siege begins when the door opens. The oils outside continue so they don’t feel comfortable stacking anywhere too near… get some oils on the side stairs facing inward towards front flag… or, okay, I seem to be at Sejanus in my mind but you get the idea— and a meat bag or two launched at the opening from back flag. Still gonna need 5 or 8 brawlers down below.

Oils work quite a bit better when the enemy group is getting ulti dumped as they all try to pop whatever snare removals they have and dead sprint for 50 yards. I’ve seen THICK packs of enemies get MELTED. Nightly. And it isn’t the ultis… it’s hard to ulti dump a fast moving ball. But most good ultis also stun. And suddenly there’s a lot to do. And oil is pouring.

OBJnoob · April 2022

Oh P.S. and oils aren’t the only siege either. Nor are rams. Don’t underestimate the ability of siege to kill other siege. If you got 8 guys on the wall shooting at ballista with ballistas… its a pretty effective strategy. And very frustrating to be on the other side.

divnyi · April 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

But then there is that sweet sweet purge synergy.

Not synergy, just support line purge.

gameswithaspoon · April 2022

divnyi wrote: »

https://youtu.be/zRXjSLnVWxA

We all hate DC, Plaguebreak - and not without a reason.
But do I need to remind you how the game looks with siege effects cleansable?

There was a garrison in this keep, using sieges to stop enemy steamroll.
They stacked heals and cleansed like as if there was no sieges at all.

Run Time Stop and/or Remote Totem.

Still, you made an effort which is more than some.

Don't be hard on yourself. 2 oils won't clear a Ram.

2 oils won't clear a Ram in Grey Host either.

CaperGuy · April 2022

No-Cp never got the 30% buff to siege damage that Cp got years ago I don't believe. I'm of the opinion that siege -should- be buffed in there. In reality, if you were to get a direct hit on someone with a ballilsta bolt (not talking nearby splash damage), they would be killed instantly. I think it'd be neat if siege did a lot more damage.

Also, healing is overtuned this patch for sure.

WrathOfInnos · April 2022

It appears you were a little outnumbered there. Should siege really give a win when the enemy has 10X the numbers?

If 20 attackers could stack and heal through the combined siege of 20 defenders that would be a problem.

divnyi · April 2022

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It appears you were a little outnumbered there. Should siege really give a win when the enemy has 10X the numbers?

It shouldn't grant a win, but I'm outnumbered here exactly because they are rushing through the doors, my alliance have no time to gather for help, and sieges that should be slowing their advance aren't doing much.

CaperGuy wrote: »

In reality, if you were to get a direct hit on someone with a ballilsta bolt (not talking nearby splash damage), they would be killed instantly. I think it'd be neat if siege did a lot more damage.

I'd start with uncleansable, stackable DoTs. That alone would mean that you can't stand under shower of oils, you can dance forward and backward to the ram but 4 oils with proper timing would make that pretty much impossible.

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If 20 attackers could stack and heal through the combined siege of 20 defenders that would be a problem

They can and do, all the time. Most siege engines are laughably weak, having had the same base damage values and irrelevant effects for years, while player healing gets buffed to a new level of idiotic seemingly every patch. In PvE, there are mechanics that cannot be healed through and/or simply wipe a stacked group, which creates more dynamic and tactical combat, whereas in PvP you just stack and heal, stack and heal, stack and heal, no matter what the circumstance.

Kartalin · April 2022

When it's just our group of 10-12 attacking an outpost for example , and there are 2-3 players running multiple oils and throwing down well timed stuns ... even though we have dedicated healers and people purging we frequently have to abandon the ram (which dies after only 3 or 4 door hits anyway ) and focus on ranged siege.

If our group tries to push into a keep through the outer door and there's an organized group waiting with other faction members running a decent amount of siege, often only part of the group makes it through or we just get melted.

I assure you we know what we're doing . Siege is powerful enough in Ravenwatch, especially with populations as inconsistent as they are.

HonestLoverr · April 2022

No CP in general is laughable. As a returned player I can clearly see why its dead most of the time every day. Restriction of set options leading to way less build diversity, overperforming skills, heals and classes that even battlespirit doesn't balance out, and the usual 1v1, 1v2, 2v2, etc. where just nobody dies at all.
Played mainly no CP in the past with my wife and it was blast back then. The restrictions made it a mess though. I mean no proc sets? What the heck? They got nerfed into the ground anyways, why still put the lockout on these sets. Yea yea I get it, some set effects can be annoying to some (looking at you DC and PB!) but its still way better having those in and die to them instead of a pure waste of time hitting on each other with draw every time because thats whats going on in no cp.

On the other side CP campaign aren't any better. Unbearable/unplayable lag, unresponsive skills, unbalanced CP with a lot of them either overperforming or underperforming under most circumstances, still your overperforming/underperforming classes and builds etc. coupled with the ridiculously high amount of CP needed to be competitive where all the nice proc sets you got there won't help you anyways (especially new players). At least you have the freedom of choice to use whatever sets you want there.
Regarding the CP thing, no idea how they could invent that 3600 CP cap when majority of players in the past was clearly against a raise of the cap, but instead wanted the CP to be gone for good or only having it being QoL additions and not 10% dmg boost here, 10% mitigation there, no cost breakfree and automatic major protection popping from your points and whatnot what we got now. Causing even more pressure on the server as well..

Anyways we got so many options even without CP because of the really unique and awesome sets that can make or break a build. Absolutely no reason for something like battlespirit, no cp no proc, cp, no cp no set restriction battleground kind of PvP mix that exists, if battlespirit would be made a feature that works in PvE too with a little adjustment on mob and boss HP down to fit the lesser dmg. Don't need 4 different campaigns with 1 being alliance locked and some running for the timespan of a whole month either. A population lock is enough, don't need an alliance lock on top.

So many easy solutions to solve the ongoing PvP balancing problems. Others even have better ideas than what I can bring up. The root of it all may be laying deeper than we can imagine though, since the game itself is still based on a very outdated and restrictive engine making a lot of the suggested feedback, wishes and solutions close to impossible to implement, regardless of how good on paper something may sound. The biggest problems are the engine and the servers which Zos tries to maintain and thus rather builds on bad decisions from the past instead of investing the nessessary time, money and effort to create something superior in every way than what ESO has turned into after all these years.

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

What was the point of that whole CP rework with the CP power ceiling being nerfed if they're just going to keep splitting the PvP player base between so many different (and often confusing) rulesets? Pick one and balance it.

divnyi · April 2022

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

What was the point of that whole CP rework with the CP power ceiling being nerfed if they're just going to keep splitting the PvP player base between so many different (and often confusing) rulesets? Pick one and balance it.

I think the problem here is that they don't want to make all PvP noCP as that would mean progression is completely useless for PvPers, I guess they don't want that.

At the same time, removing noCP means new players are handicapped very hard.

But I agree, it doesn't help that there are 4(5?) different PvP metas, as if PvP wasn't complex enough without it.

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

divnyi wrote: »

At the same time, removing noCP means new players are handicapped very hard

New players are handicapped far worse by slow mount speed and weak siege (lol regular Fire Ballista) than CP at this point in Cyro, and BGs is still throwing cp100 gear noobs into the same arena as full gold meta gear pros.

DaggersKid · April 2022

HonestLoverr wrote: »

No CP in general is laughable. As a returned player I can clearly see why its dead most of the time every day. Restriction of set options leading to way less build diversity, overperforming skills, heals and classes that even battlespirit doesn't balance out, and the usual 1v1, 1v2, 2v2, etc. where just nobody dies at all.
Played mainly no CP in the past with my wife and it was blast back then. The restrictions made it a mess though. I mean no proc sets? What the heck? They got nerfed into the ground anyways, why still put the lockout on these sets. Yea yea I get it, some set effects can be annoying to some (looking at you DC and PB!) but its still way better having those in and die to them instead of a pure waste of time hitting on each other with draw every time because thats whats going on in no cp.

On the other side CP campaign aren't any better. Unbearable/unplayable lag, unresponsive skills, unbalanced CP with a lot of them either overperforming or underperforming under most circumstances, still your overperforming/underperforming classes and builds etc. coupled with the ridiculously high amount of CP needed to be competitive where all the nice proc sets you got there won't help you anyways (especially new players). At least you have the freedom of choice to use whatever sets you want there.
Regarding the CP thing, no idea how they could invent that 3600 CP cap when majority of players in the past was clearly against a raise of the cap, but instead wanted the CP to be gone for good or only having it being QoL additions and not 10% dmg boost here, 10% mitigation there, no cost breakfree and automatic major protection popping from your points and whatnot what we got now. Causing even more pressure on the server as well..

Anyways we got so many options even without CP because of the really unique and awesome sets that can make or break a build. Absolutely no reason for something like battlespirit, no cp no proc, cp, no cp no set restriction battleground kind of PvP mix that exists, if battlespirit would be made a feature that works in PvE too with a little adjustment on mob and boss HP down to fit the lesser dmg. Don't need 4 different campaigns with 1 being alliance locked and some running for the timespan of a whole month either. A population lock is enough, don't need an alliance lock on top.

So many easy solutions to solve the ongoing PvP balancing problems. Others even have better ideas than what I can bring up. The root of it all may be laying deeper than we can imagine though, since the game itself is still based on a very outdated and restrictive engine making a lot of the suggested feedback, wishes and solutions close to impossible to implement, regardless of how good on paper something may sound. The biggest problems are the engine and the servers which Zos tries to maintain and thus rather builds on bad decisions from the past instead of investing the nessessary time, money and effort to create something superior in every way than what ESO has turned into after all these years.

it‘s fine, that you dislike no cp no proc. but in the afternoon around 60 players and on primetime 200 players feel differently. nobody i know, who plays on no cp no proc feels like having procs back. it is nice to actually fight with skills and not let procs do the work. it is nice, that player skill and builds decide how effective you are and which role you play. except magplars and magdk (and they are broken in cp too) you can not be tanky, high sustained dmg, burst and healer in one. this makes for more interesting playstyle, especially because it is not just everytime rushing agony/dc into ult dump together with plaguebreak, like it is in cp… so if someone can‘t be killed, he can‘t kill you too. so you move on and fight other people. nobody forces you to fight a tank for more than a minute… don‘t tell me you can kill every tank in cp solo, because pretty sure with cp you can have more sustain and more tankiness and blocking ult or resto ult exists there too… the difference is that if you are build full dmg, in cp the tank can just turn around and obliterate you, because he can be all of the holy trinity.

we like our no proc. we like to have maybe 3-4 times and for half an hour a day unbearable lagg (or not even that) instead of having it 4-6 hours everyday. we like to be able to play solo, if we want and 1 vs x like in the good old times. we like to be not instakilled by gankers.

also ravenwatch eu has enough fights for smallscale around 12-18 hours a day (depending on nightcap / morning cap or not). do you really play more than 12-18 hours a day? if you are a in a ballgroup, then yeah you might only have enough pugs zerging for 4-6 hours a day, but damn i could live with zero ballgroups ;-)

divnyi · April 2022

@DaggersKid agree on CP tankiness point, but that's the same in noCP BGs, where procs are present.
Yes, CPs make players way more tankier and give way more sustain.
But choosing between that and no fun builds, I'll rather roll CP.

Just joined noCP on full crit (as most of my build is intact in no-proc too) to see what's going on here.

I was impressed by how easily smallgroup troll players are decimated.
I wasn't impressed by how the siege goes. And stupid thing is, it can be easily fixed by making sieges uncleansable.
Hence the thread.

DaggersKid · April 2022

why are builds only fun with procs? isn‘t it more fun to use your class skills and not relying on procs to do the work? there is a meta in cp proc and 80%-90% of decent players use the same or similiar build on the same class. so what is the difference really to people using all the same 3-4 sets (pariah, heartland, spriggan, spinners) in no proc? in proc you have the same procs on every class, in no proc the same class skills and combination. but atleast no proc has no one except magplars and magdks, who has it all (tank, heal, dmg).

isn‘t it good, that even organized small scale players melt in a zerg?

meatbag is still unbelievable good in no cp and cold fire / oil hits hard. most sieges are without a ram, if not pvdoor. that says enough about the strength of siege damage… also why should siege damage do all the work? sometimes we were 4 people trolling in a keep, while 12 players were standing inside inner sieging us. why should they not just come and kill us or why should cowardice be rewarded with kills?

HonestLoverr · April 2022

Build diversity is a good thing. Something that this game really shines at. Campaign diversity is not needed. What else should they restrict next, races? As soon as some people think they are broken? Or magplar and dk locked campaign? Come on.

Do you remember the proc times at no cp campaign? I played back then with my wife shortly before the builds that we used gone meta. Health regen malacath poison proc WW's. Just one of a few viable PvP builds. We were nearly unkillable as a duo. "Nearly". But so were the boys and girls who went for straight stat stacking and going the jack-of-all-trades route. Just that those guys were nearly unkillable on their own solo even without playing in a duo/small scale or whatever. Procs have never been as bad as people made it out to be in the past. Some people thought procs carry. But big bad stat pools don't? Yea the truth is, its exactly the same. With procs your dmg/heals/mitigation gets splitted once and comes together in your death screen again while straight stats simply pushed your dmg without getting that split through procs part. If you know what I mean. At the end the result was exactly the same. You either got grounded or you didn't. Because of those people complaining Zos listened.

And we now have the current no cp no proc mess, a light version of what once was at the better in comparison between no cp and cp as a whole. Jack-of-all-trades builds is the only thing left after the removal of procs of no cp. And you still have your overperforming sets there. But thats fine, because some people just tend to hate the fact that something gets procced instead of straight pushed. What a logic... Yes many more things playing a role too and I don't even start making the list what else has to do with it being laughable. I just wanted to mention that laughable sieges as what this thread is about is just the tip of the iceberg of no cp.

Necrotech_Master · April 2022

divnyi wrote: »

@DaggersKid agree on CP tankiness point, but that's the same in noCP BGs, where procs are present.
Yes, CPs make players way more tankier and give way more sustain.
But choosing between that and no fun builds, I'll rather roll CP.

Just joined noCP on full crit (as most of my build is intact in no-proc too) to see what's going on here.

I was impressed by how easily smallgroup troll players are decimated.
I wasn't impressed by how the siege goes. And stupid thing is, it can be easily fixed by making sieges uncleansable.
Hence the thread.

no proc pvp is so boring, i used to play in the no cp campaign all the time until they added the no proc rule, it was quite enjoyable

if they went back to allow procs in no cp, then you wouldnt have a purge problem because of the plaguebreak

i mean it wouldnt hurt to buff the non-coldharbour siege and/or make it uncleansable (i think the coldharbour siege is in a decent spot, it does hurt a lot as is, its everything else that needs to be buffed, the only other siege i would argue that is kind of OK are lancers)

VaranisArano · April 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@DaggersKid agree on CP tankiness point, but that's the same in noCP BGs, where procs are present.
Yes, CPs make players way more tankier and give way more sustain.
But choosing between that and no fun builds, I'll rather roll CP.

Just joined noCP on full crit (as most of my build is intact in no-proc too) to see what's going on here.

I was impressed by how easily smallgroup troll players are decimated.
I wasn't impressed by how the siege goes. And stupid thing is, it can be easily fixed by making sieges uncleansable.
Hence the thread.

if they went back to allow procs in no cp, then you wouldnt have a purge problem because of the plaguebreak

Yes, but then you'd get a HoT-stacking problem, because that's how the ball groups have adapted to no purges. So pick your poison.

Necrotech_Master · April 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@DaggersKid agree on CP tankiness point, but that's the same in noCP BGs, where procs are present.
Yes, CPs make players way more tankier and give way more sustain.
But choosing between that and no fun builds, I'll rather roll CP.

Just joined noCP on full crit (as most of my build is intact in no-proc too) to see what's going on here.

I was impressed by how easily smallgroup troll players are decimated.
I wasn't impressed by how the siege goes. And stupid thing is, it can be easily fixed by making sieges uncleansable.
Hence the thread.

if they went back to allow procs in no cp, then you wouldnt have a purge problem because of the plaguebreak

Yes, but then you'd get a HoT-stacking problem, because that's how the ball groups have adapted to no purges. So pick your poison.

heals would be weaker in no cp, less mitigation, less stat bonuses, so it certainly wouldnt be as bad as cp

if base game siege was slightly buffed it would mitigate that as well

Thraben · April 2022

divnyi wrote: »

https://youtu.be/zRXjSLnVWxA

We all hate DC, Plaguebreak - and not without a reason.
But do I need to remind you how the game looks with siege effects cleansable?

There was a garrison in this keep, using sieges to stop enemy steamroll.
They stacked heals and cleansed like as if there was no sieges at all.

1. Oil alone is not the answer. You gave the answer yourself: combine oil with Borrowed Time, Inevitable Deto, other ground AoE, (DK standard) and in your case Impale, and there might be a chance.

2. As a NB, NoCp is generally a tough place for you. If you want to countersiege with some success, look for places where you can combine the effects of 2 catapults with a classical proxy bomb attack, like when they try to push through the outer mg of a major keep.

Iriidius · April 2022

Siege shield makes a huge difference when you try to oil a Zerg at a ram. Without siege shield and heal stacking, you can almost all of them with oil. With siege shield not a single one will die. The more people siege the higher is the chance that 1 of them has siege shield. And the more often the group is sieging keeps defended only by siege, the more often one of them will use siege shield. PvDoor Zergs often have siege shield up even when there is nobody defending just in case someone could show up and oil them a few times without shield before they place a siege shield.