Nogawd wrote: »

Some of these people are really saying a normal dlc takes 30 minutes to an hour?

If that is the truth, their times for the other dungeons would be really hefty too.

They are not hard and still don't even require a tank or healer.

It is solely dependent on the group you are with though. And yeah, sometimes groups are so bad that it does take that long. I just did FG1 this morning, solo, in 4 minutes. A 25+ minute difference between dungeon lengths is a huge disparity.

People who don't pay for ESO+ can quick farm xp and transmute crystals from random normal dungeons. (24 easy base game dungeons)

People who pay for ESO+ have a less chance to quick farm xp and transmute crystals from random normal dungeons. (22? DLC dungeons are involved)

There is a disadvantage in a service that you pay monthly with real money. lol what?

I've never played any other game that has disadvantages attached to their paid subscription services.

SilverBride wrote: »

I couldn't care less about the transmute crystals. All I want is to experience all the normal dungeons but I don't queue mostly because of how long the DLC dungeons take. And I'm not going to punish myself by dropping ESO + to avoid them.

If you don't care about the transmutes, you can join a random dungeon by just selecting which dungeons you want to do. The game will just give you whatever is available first.

.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

The problem with transmute farming is simple economics. People don't all have the free time to waste on slow stuff so if the dungeon takes more than about 15 minutes and it's a group or the tank doesn't like it then it's in the interest of the (usually fake) tank to just quit, spend 10 minutes doing one of the pledges then re-queue. For others its things like "oh we got a long DLC, sorry guys I've only got a 30 minute luncbreak"

This is why Transmute Thingies should not be tied exclusively to dungeon content. I don't want them in the Crown Store, either, but there needs to be a reliable and repeatable way to get a daily fix of Thingies without doing a dungeon run.

Guaranteed drops

Alliance War 30 Day Campaign Rewards (Tier 1) x50
Alliance War 30 Day Campaign Top 10% Leaderboard x50
Alliance War 7 Day Campaign Rewards (Tier 1) x10
Alliance War 7 Day Campaign Top 10% Leaderboard x10
Arena Leaderboard x5
Trial Leaderboard x5
Battlegrounds Leaderboard x5
Random Daily Activity Finder x10
Rewards for the Worthy x4-x25
Trial Weekly Quests x5
Undaunted Pledges Normal x1
Undaunted Pledges Veteran x3
Undaunted Pledges Veteran Hardmode x5
Veteran Dragonstar Arena x5
Veteran Maelstrom Arena x4
Veteran Blackrose Prison x5
Veteran Vateshran Hollows x5

Potential Drops

Final Dungeon Boss
Random Daily Activity Finder (after first activity)
Rewards for the Worthy (after first reward)
Half-Digested Adventurer's Pack

This should be all the time:

Half-Digested Adventurer's Pack

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

People who don't pay for ESO+ can quick farm xp and transmute crystals from random normal dungeons. (24 easy base game dungeons)

People who pay for ESO+ have a less chance to quick farm xp and transmute crystals from random normal dungeons. (22? DLC dungeons are involved)

There is a disadvantage in a service that you pay monthly with real money. lol what?

I've never played any other game that has disadvantages attached to their paid subscription services.

You are wrong again. Not all people like vanilla dungeons. They, like all vanilla content, are pretty bad. You just don't like playing dungeons. Again, dungeons cannot be viewed as just a means of farming crystals and experience. There are also very long vanilla dungeons. Should they be abandoned too?

I don't like playing dungeons? Nice assumption there. I wonder why I bothered doing DLC dungeon trifectas then. Or why I still tank normal dlc dungeons on 10 of my DDs. I personally don't mind they're longer and require more effort. I just find it weird that there is a disadvantage attached to a paid service.

Random normal dungeons are still the most effective way to get crystals. And the content I love the most (vet HM trials, which is why I need the crystals) don't give nearly enough crystals. Cyrodiil is a lagfest and no hope of it ever getting any better. (Previously I got my crystals from Cyrodiil)

What if they did

Maj's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

Gilron's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons he gives.

Urgalag's Random - 5 transmute crystals guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

And then Ultimate Undaunted Random, gives all of the current rewards and 15 transmute crystals. The Vet mode gives 20. You are queued for all available dungeons.

This way joining the DLC is by far still the best way to get the crystals but people who'd rather ditch than do them can still get a little something.

As I've said before in similar threads:

There is no such thing as a group for whom all the options in a current random queue would be fun.

Either the easier dungeons are mindlessly easy for the group, or the harder dungeons are unpleasantly difficult. That's true on normal and vet alike.

Breaking random into 4 queues would be ideal: Normal/vet x base/DLC. If people want to sign up for multiple random queues among those, they could be allowed to.

Getting down to 3 queues, by conflating vet base with normal DLC, could also work. But I think it would be clearer to have 4 queues, for which the 2 middle-difficulty ones (normal DLC and vet base) just happen to have identical rewards.

SilverBride wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

It also begs the point as to why DLC dungeons are so unpopular. I know the reason I boycott them is because they are too hard with overly obtuse mechanics - rendering them not fun. So I don't do them. Perhaps I am not a minority? Ya think?

They are so unpopular for a few reasons:
- Too long. Even on normal, more than a few of these take a while to do. When you compare to something like FG1, which takes like 5-10 minutes max (even when doing all bosses), a potential 30-40 minute dungeon on normal is not appealing. Sure, with a great group, these can be done quickly, but the coin flip of a good group and an awful group is just not appealing.
- Difficulty and mechanics. On normal, with a bad group, the mechanics for some of these can be unforgiving. Good groups are going to have little issues, but since the finder is random, the chance of getting a group that is awful is high, and when some of the DLC dungeons require following specific mechanics even on normal this very often leads to wipes. Or, for more experienced players, it leads to the having to slog through a dungeon carrying the rest of the team. No one wants to carry a team through a dungeon.

ZOS really dropped the ball when it comes to DLC dungeon length and difficulty. Imagine having a job where you don't know whether you'll be working a 6 hour shift of just standing around or a 12 hour shift of backbreaking physical labor until you show up for the day.

That is to me the wrong attitude. The game is fun. Imagine wanting less fun.

Players want more options so they can enjoy what they find fun.

So the way to get more options is to remove the way people who need to fill groups can do so? If you split queues that is what happens.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What if they did

Maj's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

Gilron's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons he gives.

Urgalag's Random - 5 transmute crystals guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

And then Ultimate Undaunted Random, gives all of the current rewards and 15 transmute crystals. The Vet mode gives 20. You are queued for all available dungeons.

This way joining the DLC is by far still the best way to get the crystals but people who'd rather ditch than do them can still get a little something.

Dropping ESO+ would be still the most effective way.
If I were doing random dungeons I would never ever sub to ESO+.

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What if they did

Maj's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

Gilron's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons he gives.

Urgalag's Random - 5 transmute crystals guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

And then Ultimate Undaunted Random, gives all of the current rewards and 15 transmute crystals. The Vet mode gives 20. You are queued for all available dungeons.

This way joining the DLC is by far still the best way to get the crystals but people who'd rather ditch than do them can still get a little something.

Dropping ESO+ would be still the most effective way.
If I were doing random dungeons I would never ever sub to ESO+.

The point of the suggestion isn't to get people who have all the DLC out of the queue, it's to still incentivize them to stay inside the queue. Because they are needed in the queue, and providing a working product is more important than suiting the tastes of someone buying something they don't like. The point of the change is just to a give tiny reward to people who would rather drop out of the queue than do a DLC, this way they have an option to still farm random normals for transmutes. But they are incentivized to actually use that DLC content so that it works for everyone else who are also paying customers.

Because they can already choose to forgo the rewards and queue for a random base game dungeon by just selecting the ones they don't want to do. So clearly this is about the rewards.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What if they did

Maj's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

Gilron's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons he gives.

Urgalag's Random - 5 transmute crystals guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

And then Ultimate Undaunted Random, gives all of the current rewards and 15 transmute crystals. The Vet mode gives 20. You are queued for all available dungeons.

This way joining the DLC is by far still the best way to get the crystals but people who'd rather ditch than do them can still get a little something.

Dropping ESO+ would be still the most effective way.
If I were doing random dungeons I would never ever sub to ESO+.

The point of the suggestion isn't to get people who have all the DLC out of the queue, it's to still incentivize them to stay inside the queue. Because they are needed in the queue, and providing a working product is more important than suiting the tastes of someone buying something they don't like. The point of the change is just to a give tiny reward to people who would rather drop out of the queue than do a DLC, this way they have an option to still farm random normals for transmutes. But they are incentivized to actually use that DLC content so that it works for everyone else who are also paying customers.

Because they can already choose to forgo the rewards and queue for a random base game dungeon by just selecting the ones they don't want to do. So clearly this is about the rewards.

The point is with you suggestion the best rewards are for those who don't have DLC dungeons and use the Ultimate Undaunted Random. That means to get the best rewards a player should drop the sub to have max reward numbers without the pain of DLC.

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What if they did

Maj's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

Gilron's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons he gives.

Urgalag's Random - 5 transmute crystals guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

And then Ultimate Undaunted Random, gives all of the current rewards and 15 transmute crystals. The Vet mode gives 20. You are queued for all available dungeons.

This way joining the DLC is by far still the best way to get the crystals but people who'd rather ditch than do them can still get a little something.

Dropping ESO+ would be still the most effective way.
If I were doing random dungeons I would never ever sub to ESO+.

The point of the suggestion isn't to get people who have all the DLC out of the queue, it's to still incentivize them to stay inside the queue. Because they are needed in the queue, and providing a working product is more important than suiting the tastes of someone buying something they don't like. The point of the change is just to a give tiny reward to people who would rather drop out of the queue than do a DLC, this way they have an option to still farm random normals for transmutes. But they are incentivized to actually use that DLC content so that it works for everyone else who are also paying customers.

Because they can already choose to forgo the rewards and queue for a random base game dungeon by just selecting the ones they don't want to do. So clearly this is about the rewards.

The point is with you suggestion the best rewards are for those who don't have DLC dungeons and use the Ultimate Undaunted Random. That means to get the best rewards a player should drop the sub to have max reward numbers without the pain of DLC.

Once again... Random normal is not a "give crystals and experience" button.

Well, great thing that I don't do them then. I don't need crystals or experience that much.

But from a pure logical point of view when you have two (2) possible choices:
a) pay real money, get a >50% chance of DLC dungeon in the random queue, get lucky to receive crystals and experience (at all or in the sane timeframe);
b) don't pay real money, never get a chance of DLC dungeon in the random queue, always receive the same crystals and experience
the best choice of those two is obvious (and it is not with payment).

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

What if they did

Maj's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

Gilron's Random - 1 transmute crystal guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons he gives.

Urgalag's Random - 5 transmute crystals guaranteed per day. Only selects the dungeons she gives.

And then Ultimate Undaunted Random, gives all of the current rewards and 15 transmute crystals. The Vet mode gives 20. You are queued for all available dungeons.

This way joining the DLC is by far still the best way to get the crystals but people who'd rather ditch than do them can still get a little something.

Dropping ESO+ would be still the most effective way.
If I were doing random dungeons I would never ever sub to ESO+.

The point of the suggestion isn't to get people who have all the DLC out of the queue, it's to still incentivize them to stay inside the queue. Because they are needed in the queue, and providing a working product is more important than suiting the tastes of someone buying something they don't like. The point of the change is just to a give tiny reward to people who would rather drop out of the queue than do a DLC, this way they have an option to still farm random normals for transmutes. But they are incentivized to actually use that DLC content so that it works for everyone else who are also paying customers.

Because they can already choose to forgo the rewards and queue for a random base game dungeon by just selecting the ones they don't want to do. So clearly this is about the rewards.

The point is with you suggestion the best rewards are for those who don't have DLC dungeons and use the Ultimate Undaunted Random. That means to get the best rewards a player should drop the sub to have max reward numbers without the pain of DLC.

I understood your point, I am saying that is by design. The point is NOT to pull significant people out of the DLC because once again a functioning product is more important than catering to the taste of a particular group of plus members.

It's to give people a little something that currently get nothing, not to pull a lot of them out of the queue. The queue is for helping people find groups it is not for transmute farming.

You cannot incentivize people to do DLC dungeons and have it not be P2W and also make DLC dungeons completely skippable. It's an impossible and unreasonable ask.

We could make it p2w and punish people for not doing the DLC by lowering or removing the transmute reward if you're not queued for a threshold of dlc, but that would be predatory monetization.

We could make DLC dungeons trivially skipped, but that would break dungeon finder.

Or we can treat everyone as equal and make random finder put all people into every dungeon they qualify for, and pay them for the possibility that they are doing dungeons they don't like.

Those are the options and it's obvious why ZOS chose what they chose.