Ballgroups cheating ?, a view from inside

Photosniper89 · September 2021

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

My experience of ball groups NA PC GH.

Start by going to an outpost between the other 2 factions.
Move to an existing fight and backdoor the keep
Ride across the map to pvdoor a tri keep
End up at alessia bridge

They cant siege a defended keep, if they get in the front door and its too hot they run around the walls till they have to jump out. If they get in they find it hard to flip both flags cos they cant split up so they get pushed upstairs and run around.

Its never about taking an objective its all about showing what they are good at, which is limited.

There are much more dangerous groups of good players who don't ball, can take objectives and who can survive when split apart.

Interesting take. I'm curious what groups you ran against. No issues with our ball group splitting flags and taking keeps.

PhoenixGrey · September 2021

Stx wrote: »

I'm going to call out 1vXers on another thing.

I often see 1vX players call larger groups 'zerglings, thirsty, trash, potatoes' and other nasty names just because they are in a group and they are chasing them to kill them.

And yet AT THE SAME TIME, the entire 1vX playstyle literally revolves around poking a large group and then running away and HOPING players chase you, so you can pick them off.

I don't really understand that mindset. It seems really entitled and egotistical.

1vX'ers are usually the better players so they are supposed to be an entitled bunch.

MadeInVN · September 2021

CharlieFreak wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Like i'm not impressed by 1vXers who think circling around rocks and killing noobs is some sort of achievement.

Yeah the 1vXers are quite funny and so proud of themselves on YouTube. "Here's me 1vXing, and I'll show you how to PvP at the highest levels."

And every single clip is basically a couple of very low rank opponents show up. He runs right into a tower, or makes a beeline for the nearest rock formation, and circles around until people get so bored/dizzy that they don't even bother rebuffing or healing - just chasing and trying to actually get a hit with their spammable.

Man, it's so boring IMO. I don't know how guys can do this for hours and hours every night. If that's what you like, I don't care, but I refuse to follow as soon as they run right into the tower.

Saw this last night in IC. There was some streamers baiting people, then running right into one of the buildings with stairs and here we go again - tower fight of LoS frustration.

And all of their 'best pvp tier lists" are based around this playstyle.

I’m a 1vXer, and I can say the same thing about players who mindlessly chase down 1 person.

Have you ever been in a fight where each side has equal numbers and everybody seems to be surviving well, then suddenly one side gets 10 more players and it becomes a steam roll? I have, and it’s so boring to spam light attacks and still kill someone because you have 10 more people with you.

When I 1vX, I get chased by 8+ players. Some are fresh meat. Some are semi experienced (20-30 AvA rank). Some are veterans (40+ AvA rank). Cyrodiil usually has that distribution of players, except during events and the last day of the campaign where PvErs join for their rewards. There are no current builds that can tank 8+ players except for pure tanks. Therefore using LoS becomes a valid tactic to mitigate damage.

In every single one of my 1vX fights, NONE of my opponents were the one to take aggro first. I mean it’s a pretty simple concept. When you are around 20+ people of your alliance and you see 1 lone player of the opposite faction, what is the first thing you’d want to do? Well, you’d want to take him out for easy AP. That’s what happens in every single fight - a larger group sees one lone player, chases him down, falls for the LoS tactic, and dies one by one.

Some fights are easy, but some fights are super difficult where even 4 players can give you big trouble. It all depends on how good the bigger group is. But that’s the thrill of it.

Yeah I know it takes some skill, man. I didn't mean to sound like I think you guys are trash. You're not.

I do think that a lot of new players are highly impressed by these videos and if they'd go out there and try it, they'd find that it's not as god-like as it looks. It does take skill of course, but this game has a lot of positioning problems and fast melee classes with huge burst can really use LoS to take very very little damage.

Just for fun one day at an outpost on my magplar, i simply circled one of the columns with 5 or 6 newer players chasing me. That's all I did for like 10 minutes at least. Just running around the column. Didn't even bother changing direction or anything. Kept a HoT on myself, occasionally healed when I got stunned. My original plan was just to suicide out. But then I decided to have some fun with it and see how long I could survive just circling that post. It was trivial. I could have done it all day long. Eventually of course more and more players joined like angry hornets and I died.

One guy messaged me, super duper salty, calling me a trash pariah-wearing-perma-blocking-piece-of-human-filth and many other kind words. LOL. So I'm glad he had as much fun as I did! (btw, I wasn't even wearing pariah, or blocking, and had resto on backbar, not S/B. I think I did have Sithis on though)

Yea it's easy to run circles around a tower with 5-6 people following you. That's why I don't excessively LoS against 5-6 new players. But when they get to 10-15 people then LoS becomes a necessity lol. They'll take up every inch of the tower to try and kill you. But that group size isn't feasible to 1vX nowadays unless they are in full PvE gear and spamming light attacks like during the IC event.

I just noticed your signature. Man... Most frustrating class to fight. You guys hit so hard, and darting around everywhere. That hit and run playstyle drives me nuts. It's like a housefly that's just too fast to kill it easily and it eventually drives you insane.

Oddly I have a stamsorc too, but it's not really my bag. Every time I fight a good stamsorc I feel inspired to play mine, and then I just can't duplicate that awesomeness. Guess I need to just play it more until I master it.

Yea they are very annoying to play against lol. But if you're decently built and aren't a pushover it's pretty easy to counter them. I personally play a bruiser stamsorc so I'm more of a stand and fight player. Sometimes I will streak away but only if the fight gets too heated.

If you build into tankiness then stamsorc isn't that hard to play as you'll be able to take a few more hits than those full dmg hit-and-run sorcs. That playstyle requires a lot more precision with your combos.

Stamicka · September 2021

This is kind of a messy thread, but it’s nice to see different perspectives. I personally would be ok with ballgroups if heals worked differently than they do, but sadly that’s not the case. Honestly most people in ballgroups are not very good players. In fact, if you were to CC a player in a ball group and they failed to break the CC, you’d still be unable to burst them because of how many heals are on them. There’s very little skill required to survive in a ballgroup. Multiple people spamming radiating regen should not be as effective as it is. That’s my only problem with ball groups, the radiating regen carries way too hard. Mistakes need to be punished and having 3 radiating regen ticks at once makes nearly any mistake survivable.

Crash427 · September 2021

Funny that these threads are still going.

I feel bad for some of the amazing healers that I've played with or against. Anyone who says it's just the RR stacks keeping groups alive has no clue.

Abyssmol · September 2021

Crash427 wrote: »

Funny that these threads are still going.

I feel bad for some of the amazing healers that I've played with or against. Anyone who says it's just the RR stacks keeping groups alive has no clue.

Well I guess anyone defending 3 or more stacks of RR has no clue. That's at least 6k heals every seconds in pvp without crit. Easy mode I say!

Photosniper89 · September 2021

Stamicka wrote: »

This is kind of a messy thread, but it’s nice to see different perspectives. I personally would be ok with ballgroups if heals worked differently than they do, but sadly that’s not the case. Honestly most people in ballgroups are not very good players. In fact, if you were to CC a player in a ball group and they failed to break the CC, you’d still be unable to burst them because of how many heals are on them. There’s very little skill required to survive in a ballgroup. Multiple people spamming radiating regen should not be as effective as it is. That’s my only problem with ball groups, the radiating regen carries way too hard. Mistakes need to be punished and having 3 radiating regen ticks at once makes nearly any mistake survivable.

"Very little skill to be in a ball group"

Literally every person in a ball group has a very specific role - if they go down chances of the entire group going down are significant.

Everyone focuses on the heals but it's the optimization that really keeps them alive, the calls, everyone moving in sync with each other, there is a crap ton that goes on behind the scenes (OP does a good job showing some light on it) that goes into why ball groups are really hard to kill.

The instinctual things players do, the thinking 3 moves ahead of other groups, controlling one area of the map so the rest of the faction can capture while you're narrowly focused on a group that chances are you won't kill... ect ect

Lot's go into it. Having view, and only focusing on them, like "one trick pony" and "the heals" are why most people won't ever win against a ball group.

neferpitou73 · September 2021

Abyssmol wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Funny that these threads are still going.

I feel bad for some of the amazing healers that I've played with or against. Anyone who says it's just the RR stacks keeping groups alive has no clue.

Well I guess anyone defending 3 or more stacks of RR has no clue. That's at least 6k heals every seconds in pvp without crit. Easy mode I say!

Dude back in the 24man days my group used to run without radiating regen and we did fine for ourselves.

Stamicka wrote: »

This is kind of a messy thread, but it’s nice to see different perspectives. I personally would be ok with ballgroups if heals worked differently than they do, but sadly that’s not the case. Honestly most people in ballgroups are not very good players. In fact, if you were to CC a player in a ball group and they failed to break the CC, you’d still be unable to burst them because of how many heals are on them. There’s very little skill required to survive in a ballgroup. Multiple people spamming radiating regen should not be as effective as it is. That’s my only problem with ball groups, the radiating regen carries way too hard. Mistakes need to be punished and having 3 radiating regen ticks at once makes nearly any mistake survivable.

I love how we're making inferences about people's skill level just because they like playing with their friends instead of humping a rock by themselves.

Joy_Division · September 2021

Stamicka wrote: »

This is kind of a messy thread, but it’s nice to see different perspectives. I personally would be ok with ballgroups if heals worked differently than they do, but sadly that’s not the case. Honestly most people in ballgroups are not very good players. In fact, if you were to CC a player in a ball group and they failed to break the CC, you’d still be unable to burst them because of how many heals are on them. There’s very little skill required to survive in a ballgroup. Multiple people spamming radiating regen should not be as effective as it is. That’s my only problem with ball groups, the radiating regen carries way too hard. Mistakes need to be punished and having 3 radiating regen ticks at once makes nearly any mistake survivable.

Don;t believe it. For years, Radiating Regen used to be a mediocre ability that even PvE healers didn't bother with and yet since day 1 in this game, there have been complaints against organized group play.

People do not like organized groups because they underestimate the skill level and degree of coordination of players in these organized groups and are convinced it's just a this particular ability or that specific set that somehow "carries" these bad players to do things beyond what they deem should be possible. I doubt that they appreciate the irony that they themselves use busted or overpowered abilities, gear, combos themselves that enables them to think they are good players in the first place.

The average player in a "ball group" > the average player in cyrodiil by a comfortable margin.

The average player in one of the better organized groups >>> the average PuG who comes onto these forums and complains.

Stx · September 2021

Abyssmol wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Funny that these threads are still going.

I feel bad for some of the amazing healers that I've played with or against. Anyone who says it's just the RR stacks keeping groups alive has no clue.

Well I guess anyone defending 3 or more stacks of RR has no clue. That's at least 6k heals every seconds in pvp without crit. Easy mode I say!

So you're saying that a group of 10+ can't kill a target getting 6k healing per second? That's some bad dps imo.

Or maybe you were looking at this from a solo perspective. Expecting to be able to kill someone with 11 allies healing them by yourself?

neferpitou73 · September 2021

Stx wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Funny that these threads are still going.

I feel bad for some of the amazing healers that I've played with or against. Anyone who says it's just the RR stacks keeping groups alive has no clue.

Well I guess anyone defending 3 or more stacks of RR has no clue. That's at least 6k heals every seconds in pvp without crit. Easy mode I say!

So you're saying that a group of 10+ can't kill a target getting 6k healing per second? That's some bad dps imo.

Or maybe you were looking at this from a solo perspective. Expecting to be able to kill someone with 11 allies healing them by yourself?

Careful dude, you might break the mic if you drop it that hard.

MadeInVN · September 2021

Abyssmol wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Funny that these threads are still going.

I feel bad for some of the amazing healers that I've played with or against. Anyone who says it's just the RR stacks keeping groups alive has no clue.

Well I guess anyone defending 3 or more stacks of RR has no clue. That's at least 6k heals every seconds in pvp without crit. Easy mode I say!

And a 30 man zerg if coordinated can dish out 60k dps from just spamming light attacks on 1 target. No RR stacking can save you from that.

It's a pretty simple concept why ball groups seem invincible:

1) Unorganized zergs don't coordinate their attacks to burst down a ball group, letting their HoTs heal them up. It's the same reason why 1vXers seem invincible until they take a proper burst combo to the face.

2) They use defensive maneuvers like LoS, bodyblocking for teammates, block, roll dodge, etc. to avoid dmg. Think about it, if you rely too much on your healer, you are putting unnecessary strain on your healer who also has to keep up their own buffs and look out for other healers.

And if you try to take on a 12 man ball group by yourself, then you might need to reevaluate your purpose.

DjinnAeternam · September 2021

Abyssmol wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Funny that these threads are still going.

I feel bad for some of the amazing healers that I've played with or against. Anyone who says it's just the RR stacks keeping groups alive has no clue.

Well I guess anyone defending 3 or more stacks of RR has no clue. That's at least 6k heals every seconds in pvp without crit. Easy mode I say!

Well you can advocate against stacking the "same healing skill" and that's an opinion/perspective, which anyone can agree or not, but expecting a 3* RadReg to make anyone invincible or "ez mode" just shows you have no idea how much incoming damage a ballgroup member has to deal with.

I can show you examples (or just check our YT if you like) of members with 4+ Rad Regens AND 5+ Vigors (add group buffs to the heal calculations like Major Vitality ; Major/Minor Sorcery), and even then a member can get wiped fast if not the healers and supports awesome work.

The HoTs maintain the group moving, but it's the burst heals from the healers and supports (sometimes even DDs with snipe heals, yes even the DDs have to support when not doing damage - take that into the 1 button spammer theory...) that really saves the group if anyone gets focused, or the group gets big incoming damage.

Inside keeps, with sieges and random players throwing stuff at group, one can easily get 10k+ dmg/sec if focused, so all those HoTs will just counter the almost permanent damage that hits the group.

It's when you add Barrier (or Barriers rotations), burst heals, and healing ultis, that you really see big healing numbers.

Example: A NB healer properly buffed inside a group has a Soul Siphon with near 20k tooltip (burst heal) and 50k HoT, this before battle spirit, and 15k Blessing of Restoration tooltip (also before BS), and take into account that a group can have 3 or even 4 healers spread through different classes.

I could go deeper into maths showing you how an enemy ballgroup could easily pass by far 50k true DPS AoE with timed burst damage, and some good small groups with proper setup can achieve, so you see HoTs just "negate" the almost perma incoming damage when facing a zerg/PuG/Randoms, it just enables the group movement and gives healers/supports a bit of space to do their work.

If it was that easy, just stacking 3 RRs, you would see a lot more groups being way more effective than they are, just take into account that 6kHP/sec is nothing compared to 30k+dps you easily see from an X number of bombers/proper buffed DDs that a group has to face, so just multiply that number times the number of players that throw timed damage at group members all the time, multiple times.

I hope this small example helps to clarify that, and reiterate the same that Crash said, if you think its just RRs keeping the group alive, you have no idea how good some healers are, or how good healing is inside a ballgroup.

A print from a video we have online (you can see the @s on the vid with gameplay if you search for it).
Check how many RRs and Vigor group has, it could be a lot better, and i can assure you that no one is invincible with those numbers ticking, it just depends on how good the enemy is.

DjinnAeternam · September 2021

MadeInVN wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Funny that these threads are still going.

I feel bad for some of the amazing healers that I've played with or against. Anyone who says it's just the RR stacks keeping groups alive has no clue.

Well I guess anyone defending 3 or more stacks of RR has no clue. That's at least 6k heals every seconds in pvp without crit. Easy mode I say!

And a 30 man zerg if coordinated can dish out 60k dps from just spamming light attacks on 1 target. No RR stacking can save you from that.

It's a pretty simple concept why ball groups seem invincible:

1) Unorganized zergs don't coordinate their attacks to burst down a ball group, letting their HoTs heal them up. It's the same reason why 1vXers seem invincible until they take a proper burst combo to the face.

2) They use defensive maneuvers like LoS, bodyblocking for teammates, block, roll dodge, etc. to avoid dmg. Think about it, if you rely too much on your healer, you are putting unnecessary strain on your healer who also has to keep up their own buffs and look out for other healers.

And if you try to take on a 12 man ball group by yourself, then you might need to reevaluate your purpose.

This is pretty accurate.

Flangdoodle · September 2021

All the hard work and practice the OP cites is admirable, and what others have posted previously is fair but it all misses one important point: one out of every 3 times anyone who comes into contact with these groups crashes and has to re-log back into the game - and that's *on top* of the increased lag.

I don't think anyone cares about losing a fair fight, or about being bested by better players, [which for me is probably the majority of the population of the game

] but the thing that ticks them off the most is not being able to fight back. It's not CC's it's not lack of resources, and sorry, it's not non-optimized gameplay. It's that whatever these groups are doing causes people to glitch out and crash. Whether they intend to or not, and let's be real - it's been happening for far too long for them to pretend that they dont know it.

You can always tell when they show up to a fight at a keep because all of a sudden your ping goes through the roof. I have fiberoptic internet with 500-700 ul and dl speeds and it happens - every. single. time. Nearly everyone else in my group reports the same thing.

That being said, SWB groups aren't "cheating" but they should at least admit that they know they're getting kills from crashing others and that they just don't care.

Photosniper89 · September 2021

Flangdoodle wrote: »

All the hard work and practice the OP cites is admirable, and what others have posted previously is fair but it all misses one important point: one out of every 3 times anyone who comes into contact with these groups crashes and has to re-log back into the game - and that's *on top* of the increased lag.

I don't think anyone cares about losing a fair fight, or about being bested by better players, [which for me is probably the majority of the population of the game ] but the thing that ticks them off the most is not being able to fight back. It's not CC's it's not lack of resources, and sorry, it's not non-optimized gameplay. It's that whatever these groups are doing causes people to glitch out and crash. Whether they intend to or not, and let's be real - it's been happening for far too long for them to pretend that they dont know it.

You can always tell when they show up to a fight at a keep because all of a sudden your ping goes through the roof. I have fiberoptic internet with 500-700 ul and dl speeds and it happens - every. single. time. Nearly everyone else in my group reports the same thing.

That being said, SWB groups aren't "cheating" but they should at least admit that they know they're getting kills from crashing others and that they just don't care.

My raid on Monday had 4 members of our 12 person ball group crash during a fight....

Ball groups don't "cause the lag" or make people crash....

We lag and crash just as much as everyone else.

Flangdoodle · September 2021

Photosniper89 wrote: »

My raid on Monday had 4 members of our 12 person ball group crash during a fight....

Ball groups don't "cause the lag" or make people crash....

We lag and crash just as much as everyone else.

Yeah? How often does that happen? 'Cause for us it happens every time SWB groups show up. Every time.

I suppose it could be correlation without causation, but it sure has been a lot of correlation - like several times a week for years now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Stx · September 2021

Lag and crashes are due to ZOS refusing to put time, effort, or funding into fixing those issues.

0% of the blame should be placed on a group of 12 players playing together in a zone made for large scale warfare.

Sanctum74 · September 2021

If you’re crashing that often then it definitely sounds like something on your end or an exaggeration. The very few times I do crash is if I ride up to a keep too quickly with a big fight going and when that happens there aren’t even any ball groups around, just zergs. Regardless I wouldn’t blame or shame them for playing the game as intended when zos is the one to blame.

Nemeliom · September 2021

Einstein_ wrote: »

Hallo, I am a current officer in the ballgroup guild Project Nova (PC/EU). I am reading a lot forum post about how OP and broken ballgroups are, and yes thats kinda true.
But I want to show here that this is deserved and what we are investing to get to a point where we are. Maybe some pll will understand better after reading this, even tho i am sure there will be still a lot of ball hater comments aswell. Nevertheless I want to show you a few points.

Optimization: We have a specific setup with 12 roles, where every role is excatly defined. We take hours every patch to greate a setup which is as much optimized as possible, and this ofc changes if meta changes or we disscover new stuff. Every role is optimized and defined in Skills/glyphs/traits/staats/munuds...., even more strict than most trial groups on a GS lvl.

The raid leader exactly knows that on role X is a certaint skill, and the person playing role X knows in which situations he needs to use that skill to help the whole group.
No random or even guild member will join our group on some random solo setup which does not fit into the group. This helps us to have all the important buffs/sets in our group which makes us strong (PA, minor/major courage, minor/major sorcery, ect), pretty similar to trial groups. This leads to stats which no solo build can ever achive (for example on a DD: 10k WD/110% crit muliplier/Acuity/15k Pen/40k HP/enugh rec).

Training: We play frequently together and know the behaviour of others and the raid leader. Everybody knows whats important for the group to function and how the mechanics work, it took us months to get to this point. Alot ppl say every ballgroup player is a noob solo, thats acually not true alot of our members are pretty good duelists and solo players. If you dont belive me, I encurage anybody to come to Alikre and fight some of us. I am there pretty often (not saying I'll win vs everyone :> ).

ESO-LOGS: we logg and make videos of every raid and analyse them afterwards, so we can see exactly where we need to improve. For example if our DK only achived 60% uptime on the minor brutality buff we can see that and improve, or if somebody was in general just not doing what we expect from that role we can see that and improve.
In videos we can see our behaviour in certain situations and improve on positioning and strategy for example.

Regading new sets: The new anti purge set took us 1 raid to understand and to counter. So thats not a big proplem for us, even tho we for sure took a nerf from it (since we cant purge anymore).
Hrothgars chill does nothing to us, since we anyway get stuned on CD if you fight huge numbers.
Dark Convergenz is just anoying. And ofc optimized groups can use this any set more optimal then the average player in zerg.
Are this sets killing us ? Not really..

can you kill us ?: YES, but not with some uncordinated pew pew.I am sure with a group of 3+ ppl on a good setup you can kill us. But you need to understand when the right moment is and your dmg needs to be cordinated.

Résumé : An optimized group with a lot training will always beat the double or tripple amount of enemys, and in my opinion it should be like this. A good solo player can win a 1v3 against not experianced players, why shouldnt a group be able to win 12v36 ? In general this game is designed to be a group content, you also cant go with 12 craglorn randoms in vSS and expect GS.

If you have further questions feel free to ask.

BTW: we also looking for new experianced and deticated players, you can contanct me ig.

What a waste of time

That's not playing. That's working.

Flangdoodle · September 2021

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If you’re crashing that often then it definitely sounds like something on your end or an exaggeration. The very few times I do crash is if I ride up to a keep too quickly with a big fight going and when that happens there aren’t even any ball groups around, just zergs. Regardless I wouldn’t blame or shame them for playing the game as intended when zos is the one to blame.

I play with people who have varying setups and internet connections, and who are located all across the US and the world. We all experience this several times a week. Guess what the common denominator is?

Like I said, maybe it's just a coincidence . So, when you suggest it's "zergs" it's totally fine, but if I suggest it's SWB groups it's "blaming and shaming"? Ok man. I gotcha'.

DrSlaughtr · September 2021

Ball groups don't cheat but they do take advantage of the limitations of the game and use them to their advantage. Limitations that attackers can't do anything about. Here are two examples from someone who used to run with a ball group for a year before I got bored.

Non-destructive environmental obstacles. If you turtle up in a tower or run around a rock for 10 minutes, I can't destroy that obstacle. You have infinite protection so long as you can maintain, which is very easy. What attacks do hit you are easily absorbed, while loading you up with ultimate. Then you run out, drop your stuff then run back to your perma protection. Notice how ball groups almost never fight in the open and when they do, they die rather easy?

Yes, we got negates and CC's but there are multiple counters to these tactics, including Slippery.

If you wanna cower behind a rock until you got ultimate, I want a better seige weapon that can actually kill you and not just be shrugged off like it's just a light attack.

Then you have the lag. Yes, you cause lag. The fact this is still debated by ballers is hilarious because you feel it, too. The difference is the lag doesn't hurt ball groups the same way it does other groups.

Now it's important to note it isn't the ball groups fault their constant spamming causes lag. The game should be able to handle, but I can't.

As I said, it does affect a ball group but it's not a big deal because you don't need every player landing their skills. You're stacking 12 rotations. Even if only half fire on time, you're still healing everyone and you're still running over the competition.

The lag is on ZOS and ball groups shouldn't get nerfed for it BUT the endless chases around obstacles needs a better counter. If you're not gonna let me destroy towers anymore then give me something that effectively hurts a ball group of they decided to turtle up or run around a rock for the better part of an hour.

Sanctum74 · September 2021

Flangdoodle wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

If you’re crashing that often then it definitely sounds like something on your end or an exaggeration. The very few times I do crash is if I ride up to a keep too quickly with a big fight going and when that happens there aren’t even any ball groups around, just zergs. Regardless I wouldn’t blame or shame them for playing the game as intended when zos is the one to blame.

I play with people who have varying setups and internet connections, and who are located all across the US and the world. We all experience this several times a week. Guess what the common denominator is?

Like I said, maybe it's just a coincidence . So, when you suggest it's "zergs" it's totally fine, but if I suggest it's SWB groups it's "blaming and shaming"? Ok man. I gotcha'.

So which is it? 1 of 3 times, every time, or 3 times a week? You’re all over the place which is why I said if you really are crashing that often then it’s on your end or you’re exaggerating. I’m leaning towards the latter since you keep changing it every time you post.

As far as blaming and shaming goes, yes when you say they are knowingly crashing people and don’t care then yes that’s exactly what you’re doing. If you read my message all I said is that it doesn’t happen around ball groups only if I ride up to a keep too quickly when there are big zerg fights going on and I literally said I don’t blame them, I blame zos.

And no I don’t play in ball groups, it just gets tiresome to see so many people hating on every other play style that isn’t their own. Cyrodill is big enough for all play styles and any performance issues should be directed at zos instead of the community fighting each other over something we have no control over.

vesselwiththepestle · September 2021

When is an organized group even considered a ballgroup?

DucLIX · September 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

As I said, it does affect a ball group but it's not a big deal because you don't need every player landing their skills

We need. Especially when the group isn't composed of 12 players, the less you are, the more each people are important.
Short example: When most of people are saying we got dedicated healers and so every other players doesnt care about healing, that's true, we got dedicated healers, but try getting dedicated healers heals only, then your group dies, every single player in a group is healing, without HoTs from everyone a group wouldn't last long or way less.

All the same for other roles.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The fact this is still debated by ballers is hilarious because you feel it, too. The difference is the lag doesn't hurt ball groups the same way it does other groups.

It does, it's like 1 skill firing off every 5/6 seconds like anyone, so, less heal, less damage. Why do we manage to kill people and survive with lag? Synergies to kill, that's one of the thing you somehow manage to activate, we go more defensive, instead of trying to do more damage, we focus on healing and buffs, while most of the enemy players around are just keep going on what they're doing, so they don't take time to heal in general, they struggle to fire some skills, so it gives us opportunities to kill them. Is that takign advantage of lag? No, it's just adapt to it. We don't like it, nodoby likes it, we prefer to die without lag and enjoy a fight rather than laggin all night, fights are boring and slow, ballgroup or not we're in the same bag.

And we certainly got more sync problem than any other groups, constant rollbacks, people staying middle air with meteors wich means if he get bugged he probably gonna die since it takes almost 1 minute to get back to it's real position, and some players noticed it and are abusing of it, we get used to it and know it will happen at almost every big (or not btw) fights, and with the new sets these problem have gotten worse, dark convergence desync is way more frequent.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Non-destructive environmental obstacles. If you turtle up in a tower or run around a rock for 10 minutes, I can't destroy that obstacle. You have infinite protection so long as you can maintain, which is very easy. What attacks do hit you are easily absorbed, while loading you up with ultimate. Then you run out, drop your stuff then run back to your perma protection. Notice how ball groups almost never fight in the open and when they do, they die rather easy?

That's valuable for any other playstyle, just go on youtube and type: "ESO 1vX Outnumbered", that's basically what you'll find, players cutting the LoS to avoid damage. That's not a thing you can blame ballgroup for since every playstyles are relying on this "technic" for more survavibility.

VaranisArano · September 2021

Nemeliom wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

Hallo, I am a current officer in the ballgroup guild Project Nova (PC/EU). I am reading a lot forum post about how OP and broken ballgroups are, and yes thats kinda true.
But I want to show here that this is deserved and what we are investing to get to a point where we are. Maybe some pll will understand better after reading this, even tho i am sure there will be still a lot of ball hater comments aswell. Nevertheless I want to show you a few points.

Optimization: We have a specific setup with 12 roles, where every role is excatly defined. We take hours every patch to greate a setup which is as much optimized as possible, and this ofc changes if meta changes or we disscover new stuff. Every role is optimized and defined in Skills/glyphs/traits/staats/munuds...., even more strict than most trial groups on a GS lvl.

The raid leader exactly knows that on role X is a certaint skill, and the person playing role X knows in which situations he needs to use that skill to help the whole group.
No random or even guild member will join our group on some random solo setup which does not fit into the group. This helps us to have all the important buffs/sets in our group which makes us strong (PA, minor/major courage, minor/major sorcery, ect), pretty similar to trial groups. This leads to stats which no solo build can ever achive (for example on a DD: 10k WD/110% crit muliplier/Acuity/15k Pen/40k HP/enugh rec).

Training: We play frequently together and know the behaviour of others and the raid leader. Everybody knows whats important for the group to function and how the mechanics work, it took us months to get to this point. Alot ppl say every ballgroup player is a noob solo, thats acually not true alot of our members are pretty good duelists and solo players. If you dont belive me, I encurage anybody to come to Alikre and fight some of us. I am there pretty often (not saying I'll win vs everyone :> ).

ESO-LOGS: we logg and make videos of every raid and analyse them afterwards, so we can see exactly where we need to improve. For example if our DK only achived 60% uptime on the minor brutality buff we can see that and improve, or if somebody was in general just not doing what we expect from that role we can see that and improve.
In videos we can see our behaviour in certain situations and improve on positioning and strategy for example.

Regading new sets: The new anti purge set took us 1 raid to understand and to counter. So thats not a big proplem for us, even tho we for sure took a nerf from it (since we cant purge anymore).
Hrothgars chill does nothing to us, since we anyway get stuned on CD if you fight huge numbers.
Dark Convergenz is just anoying. And ofc optimized groups can use this any set more optimal then the average player in zerg.
Are this sets killing us ? Not really..

can you kill us ?: YES, but not with some uncordinated pew pew.I am sure with a group of 3+ ppl on a good setup you can kill us. But you need to understand when the right moment is and your dmg needs to be cordinated.

Résumé : An optimized group with a lot training will always beat the double or tripple amount of enemys, and in my opinion it should be like this. A good solo player can win a 1v3 against not experianced players, why shouldnt a group be able to win 12v36 ? In general this game is designed to be a group content, you also cant go with 12 craglorn randoms in vSS and expect GS.

If you have further questions feel free to ask.

BTW: we also looking for new experianced and deticated players, you can contanct me ig.

What a waste of time
That's not playing. That's working.

Depends on how you like to play.

Consider trials - you can PUG it, you can run with a loose guild who's out to have fun, you can run with a Guild who's got some expectations, or you can run with a Guild who's interested in scorepushing who's going to have a lot higher expectations about roles and training. (Not a complete list of trials guilds, obvs.)

Nobody suggests that trial guild members aren't having fun, no matter how they run trials. Instead, players are more likely to think "That's not my style, but good for them."

I had a ton of fun in an organized guild that ran dedicated roles and trained together so that we were more effective in battle.

It's not everyone's cup of tea. Of the three IRL friends I play ESO with, two enjoyed it. My SO doesn't appreciate someone telling them what to wear or what to do all the time even though they see it's effective, so they don't raid with our guild. Not a problem - it's all a difference in preference.

If for you, you'd consider it working, not playing, then that's true for you. You should act accordingly.

For me, I was playing and having fun doing it. No need for judgment on the players who enjoy playing that way.

Greasytengu · September 2021

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

When is an organized group even considered a ballgroup?

whenever the forums need someone to blame for lag.

Photosniper89 · September 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Yes, we got negates and CC's but there are multiple counters to these tactics, including Slippery.

I don't know anyone that uses Slippery... not only does it hardly work it actually makes it harder to break free because it's buggy AF and you end up having to break free 2 or 3 additional times.

DrSlaughtr · September 2021

DucLIX wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

As I said, it does affect a ball group but it's not a big deal because you don't need every player landing their skills

We need. Especially when the group isn't composed of 12 players, the less you are, the more each people are important.
Short example: When most of people are saying we got dedicated healers and so every other players doesnt care about healing, that's true, we got dedicated healers, but try getting dedicated healers heals only, then your group dies, every single player in a group is healing, without HoTs from everyone a group wouldn't last long or way less.

All the same for other roles.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The fact this is still debated by ballers is hilarious because you feel it, too. The difference is the lag doesn't hurt ball groups the same way it does other groups.

It does, it's like 1 skill firing off every 5/6 seconds like anyone, so, less heal, less damage. Why do we manage to kill people and survive with lag? Synergies to kill, that's one of the thing you somehow manage to activate, we go more defensive, instead of trying to do more damage, we focus on healing and buffs, while most of the enemy players around are just keep going on what they're doing, so they don't take time to heal in general, they struggle to fire some skills, so it gives us opportunities to kill them. Is that takign advantage of lag? No, it's just adapt to it. We don't like it, nodoby likes it, we prefer to die without lag and enjoy a fight rather than laggin all night, fights are boring and slow, ballgroup or not we're in the same bag.

And we certainly got more sync problem than any other groups, constant rollbacks, people staying middle air with meteors wich means if he get bugged he probably gonna die since it takes almost 1 minute to get back to it's real position, and some players noticed it and are abusing of it, we get used to it and know it will happen at almost every big (or not btw) fights, and with the new sets these problem have gotten worse, dark convergence desync is way more frequent.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Non-destructive environmental obstacles. If you turtle up in a tower or run around a rock for 10 minutes, I can't destroy that obstacle. You have infinite protection so long as you can maintain, which is very easy. What attacks do hit you are easily absorbed, while loading you up with ultimate. Then you run out, drop your stuff then run back to your perma protection. Notice how ball groups almost never fight in the open and when they do, they die rather easy?

That's valuable for any other playstyle, just go on youtube and type: "ESO 1vX Outnumbered", that's basically what you'll find, players cutting the LoS to avoid damage. That's not a thing you can blame ballgroup for since every playstyles are relying on this "technic" for more survavibility.

Sorry but you're wrong. Any ball group worth their salt effectively exploits both issues to the point where there's very little that can be done.

Yes anyone can run around a rock but one dude isn't gonna last long. Or even if it's a tank that can't be killed by a full group well who cares. It's a tank. It's not gonna do anything if you walk away. Despite what some people stupidly suggest you can't leave a ball group at a strategic position.

And no, a 12 man doesn't need every skill going off perfectly because it's about blanketing the field with attacks and hots. Even if only half of them land you're still out gunning everyone around you who are suffering the same lag your ball group brought into a battle, except it's worse because your opponents are not stacking the same 3 skills over and over.

Ball groups are part of the game but c'mon. Every time one of these posts are made it's a baller pretending like they don't do what they do.

Einstein_ · September 2021

Sorry but you're wrong. Any ball group worth their salt effectively exploits both issues to the point where there's very little that can be done.

the smale group always suffers more from lagg then a larger group. it doesnt matter if in a 10v40 5 ppl of the 40 getting desynced. the bigger group has the "map control" and can just pick their ppl up and they are fine again. but if 3 ppl getting desynct of the 10 man group they lost 1/3 of the group and that will most likly lead to their wipe.

I can tell you that our raids are alway better when we have less lagg.

And no, a 12 man doesn't need every skill going off perfectly because it's about blanketing the field with attacks and hots. Even if only half of them land you're still out gunning everyone around you who are suffering the same lag your ball group brought into a battle, except it's worse because your opponents are not stacking the same 3 skills over and over.

same argument can be made for the 40 man stack...they will always have more casts per second then a 10 man group.
The point is that its cordinated vs uncordinated.

i will tell you a Big Big secret how to kill a ballgroup.

1 Bomber with harmony and a Temp with nova and Dark convergenz+ any buff set. That perfectly timed is ez 40k dmg in 1s

do we ever see such attmepts to kill us ?, NO/rearly...ppl keep spaming LAs on us and wondering why we dont die.

#Optimized groups are NOT OP, others just.....