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Backlash buff was too much and needs to be toned down (PvP perspective)
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maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To be honest, think I'm done with this thread. I will turn off notifications. [snip] When backlash ends up on my death recap repeatedly in Cyrodiil or bgs, then I might think it's too strong. There are other skills and sets that need to be addressed first, and yet the op has a vendetta with backlash.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 31 August 2021 11:296 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭To be honest, think I'm done with this thread. I will turn off notifications. [snip] When backlash ends up on my death recap repeatedly in Cyrodiil or bgs, then I might think it's too strong. There are other skills and sets that need to be addressed first, and yet the op has a vendetta with backlash.
Too bad you cant see the suggestion is a buff for templar. See ya
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 31 August 2021 11:290 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭duels will always be unbalanced because dueling is not the basis for PvP in this game.complaining about a skill because its very strong on duels is not logical from a balancing perspective. both warden and necro has better burst in group pvp because their timed burst is aoe. for a single target delayed burst skill backlash is where its supposed to be.stop complaining about templars when all they have is being a easy class to play.other classes has much more strength and capacity than templars.
Correct. Things like fossilize and streak are very oppressive 1v1. It is why mag dks often win those dueling tournaments.Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »Now you have devolved into "its too stronk for 1v1"?? lmao... last time I checked there is no 1v1 option for BG or IC, or Cyro... so what youre really saying is you want something nerfed because its beats YOU 1v1, as you seem to literally be the ONLY person complaining and all of your complaints revolve around you losing in a 1v1 lol.... [snip]
Yup lol.Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Do me a favor MadeInVN.
Go through this post and quote everyone who agrees with you excluding yourself.
Also count how many post have been made without you.
I want to know the ratio of people who are agreeing with you.
8k people have seen this.
300 replies.
So here's the ratio I want
(People who agree with you in this post excluding yourself)/(All of the post - All of your posts)
I am guessing that ratio is low. Do you know what this means? Only YOU have a problem. It's time to change bro. [snip] It was a bad move leaning only heals only to deal with damage. You need to go pvp real people now. Not your inner circle. You would have seen that your build was not that great to begin with. Basing it on one move as its failure is sad.
Exactly this.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 31 August 2021 11:31PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden2 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭Your suggestion isn't a buff it's a nerf.
Making it AOE and blockable not only makes it nerf to blocks, it also makes it nerf to major evasion.
So here's a better suggestion.
Make it blockable but let the templar decide when they all explodes and put the copy amount to 75%.
EDIT: Give a 6 second grace period to put as much lights on mobs as possible. Then another 14 seconds of time to manually explode.
It would auto explode after 20 seconds. OR make it so that it can only be placed on a single target and lasts for 15 seconds where it can be manually exploded in that time slot or auto explodes when the time ends.
This way you can't just hold block every time and just wait for it to disappear while healing.
This is fair. Then I can feel like roy mustang
Edited by Redguards_Revenge on 31 August 2021 11:380 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Your suggestion isn't a buff it's a nerf.
Making it AOE and blockable not only makes it nerf to blocks, it also makes it nerf to major evasion.
So here's a better suggestion.
Make it blockable but let the templar decide when they all explodes and put the copy amount to 75%.
EDIT: Give a 6 second grace period to put as much lights on mobs as possible. Then another 14 seconds of time to manually explode.
It would auto explode after 20 seconds. OR make it so that it can only be placed on a single target and lasts for 15 seconds where it can be manually exploded in that time slot or auto explodes when the time ends.
This way you can't just hold block every time and just wait for it to disappear while healing.
This is fair. Then I can feel like roy mustang
Only the AoE part will be affected by evasion. Let me use this example so you can understand what i meant.
Haunting Curse:
Cost: 2970 Magicka
Skill description
Curse an enemy with a destructive rune, dealing 2999 Magic Damage to the target and 1379 Magic Damage to all other nearby enemies after 3.5 seconds. The curse will continue to haunt the enemy and explode a second time, dealing 2999 Magic Damage to the target and 1379 Magic Damage to all other nearby enemies after an additional 8.5 seconds. You can have only one Haunting Curse active at a time.
There are two parts of this ability that deal damage. The first part is SINGLE TARGET. The second part is AOE. The first part, due to it being single target, won't be affected by evasion. Only the second part is affected due to it being AoE. I want backlash to essentially work like this, be blockable, but unpurgable. The damage also needs to be the same for both parts as well for consistency.
Your suggestion can work, but the templar shouldn't be able to decide. That's basically playing mind games and there is zero counter for that lol.Edited by MadeInVN on 31 August 2021 13:170 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »duels will always be unbalanced because dueling is not the basis for PvP in this game.complaining about a skill because its very strong on duels is not logical from a balancing perspective. both warden and necro has better burst in group pvp because their timed burst is aoe. for a single target delayed burst skill backlash is where its supposed to be.stop complaining about templars when all they have is being a easy class to play.other classes has much more strength and capacity than templars.
Correct. Things like fossilize and streak are very oppressive 1v1. It is why mag dks often win those dueling tournaments.Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »Now you have devolved into "its too stronk for 1v1"?? lmao... last time I checked there is no 1v1 option for BG or IC, or Cyro... so what youre really saying is you want something nerfed because its beats YOU 1v1, as you seem to literally be the ONLY person complaining and all of your complaints revolve around you losing in a 1v1 lol.... [snip]
Yup lol.Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Do me a favor MadeInVN.
Go through this post and quote everyone who agrees with you excluding yourself.
Also count how many post have been made without you.
I want to know the ratio of people who are agreeing with you.
8k people have seen this.
300 replies.
So here's the ratio I want
(People who agree with you in this post excluding yourself)/(All of the post - All of your posts)
I am guessing that ratio is low. Do you know what this means? Only YOU have a problem. It's time to change bro. [snip] It was a bad move leaning only heals only to deal with damage. You need to go pvp real people now. Not your inner circle. You would have seen that your build was not that great to begin with. Basing it on one move as its failure is sad.
Exactly this.
[edited to remove quote]
Fossilize and streak are stuns. Those things alone won't kill anybody lol. Also, how exactly are you going to form an objective opinion when you disregard dueling, which is PvP by itself, from the game?1 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gariondavey wrote: »duels will always be unbalanced because dueling is not the basis for PvP in this game.complaining about a skill because its very strong on duels is not logical from a balancing perspective. both warden and necro has better burst in group pvp because their timed burst is aoe. for a single target delayed burst skill backlash is where its supposed to be.stop complaining about templars when all they have is being a easy class to play.other classes has much more strength and capacity than templars.
Correct. Things like fossilize and streak are very oppressive 1v1. It is why mag dks often win those dueling tournaments.Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »Now you have devolved into "its too stronk for 1v1"?? lmao... last time I checked there is no 1v1 option for BG or IC, or Cyro... so what youre really saying is you want something nerfed because its beats YOU 1v1, as you seem to literally be the ONLY person complaining and all of your complaints revolve around you losing in a 1v1 lol.... [snip]
Yup lol.Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Do me a favor MadeInVN.
Go through this post and quote everyone who agrees with you excluding yourself.
Also count how many post have been made without you.
I want to know the ratio of people who are agreeing with you.
8k people have seen this.
300 replies.
So here's the ratio I want
(People who agree with you in this post excluding yourself)/(All of the post - All of your posts)
I am guessing that ratio is low. Do you know what this means? Only YOU have a problem. It's time to change bro. [snip] It was a bad move leaning only heals only to deal with damage. You need to go pvp real people now. Not your inner circle. You would have seen that your build was not that great to begin with. Basing it on one move as its failure is sad.
Exactly this.
[edited to remove quote]
Fossilize and streak are stuns. Those things alone won't kill anybody lol. Also, how exactly are you going to form an objective opinion when you disregard dueling, which is PvP by itself, from the game?
Poking by again to expand on this;
Dueling is probably the most effective way to test a build theory and it's mechanics, as well as abilities, ability changes, and how they synergize with sets. Disregarding dueling is disregarding a large data pool for brainstorming and theorycrafting.
This is why I listen more to duelists who have the data in their logs. Not someone who just pugs in Cyrodiil.
Also thanks for the information earlier about your suggestion! That oddly enough gave me some ideas with a Templar of my own, even though we don't have that specific mechanic.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »duels will always be unbalanced because dueling is not the basis for PvP in this game.complaining about a skill because its very strong on duels is not logical from a balancing perspective. both warden and necro has better burst in group pvp because their timed burst is aoe. for a single target delayed burst skill backlash is where its supposed to be.stop complaining about templars when all they have is being a easy class to play.other classes has much more strength and capacity than templars.
Correct. Things like fossilize and streak are very oppressive 1v1. It is why mag dks often win those dueling tournaments.Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »Now you have devolved into "its too stronk for 1v1"?? lmao... last time I checked there is no 1v1 option for BG or IC, or Cyro... so what youre really saying is you want something nerfed because its beats YOU 1v1, as you seem to literally be the ONLY person complaining and all of your complaints revolve around you losing in a 1v1 lol.... [snip]
Yup lol.Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Do me a favor MadeInVN.
Go through this post and quote everyone who agrees with you excluding yourself.
Also count how many post have been made without you.
I want to know the ratio of people who are agreeing with you.
8k people have seen this.
300 replies.
So here's the ratio I want
(People who agree with you in this post excluding yourself)/(All of the post - All of your posts)
I am guessing that ratio is low. Do you know what this means? Only YOU have a problem. It's time to change bro. [snip] It was a bad move leaning only heals only to deal with damage. You need to go pvp real people now. Not your inner circle. You would have seen that your build was not that great to begin with. Basing it on one move as its failure is sad.
Exactly this.
[edited to remove quote]
Fossilize and streak are stuns. Those things alone won't kill anybody lol. Also, how exactly are you going to form an objective opinion when you disregard dueling, which is PvP by itself, from the game?
Poking by again to expand on this;
Dueling is probably the most effective way to test a build theory and it's mechanics, as well as abilities, ability changes, and how they synergize with sets. Disregarding dueling is disregarding a large data pool for brainstorming and theorycrafting.
This is why I listen more to duelists who have the data in their logs. Not someone who just pugs in Cyrodiil.
Also thanks for the information earlier about your suggestion! That oddly enough gave me some ideas with a Templar of my own, even though we don't have that specific mechanic.
Correct, I never disregard any type of PvP when I want to make an objective opinion. I don't BG a lot, so should i disregard it when suggesting balance changes? Probably not. I don't large scale, so should I do the same and disregard it?
And you are also right about being an effective way to test builds. You don't really learn basic mechanics by killing pugs. You learn that by fighting better players, whether that be duels or GvGs. The same fundamentals apply in duels and GvGs - Block/Roll/Kite from big damage. Some abilities work better in one area than the other, some abilities work too well in one area and not so well in the other. How are people going to know that if all they do is play 1 type of PvP and only have experience from that type of PvP.1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I also want to touch on this one fact that on PTS, all testings are done under duels because there are simply not enough players. So for that 1 month of testing, I and many players concluded that backlash needed to be looked at. Of course when the live patch dropped and we got to see backlash used in other areas of PvP, the ability may not perform as well as we originally thought on PTS, but that's just additional data that we need to take into account. My opinion always changes as I gather more data, but I know for a fact that there has been enough testing in dueling to conclude that it's too oppressive for that specific part of PvP.
That's why I changed from nerf backlash overall to nerf backlash specifically for 1v1. I also included suggestions to make it better for BG/OW/GvG. If you guys have better suggestions, then feel free to add.1 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭Your suggestion can work, but the templar shouldn't be able to decide. That's basically playing mind games and there is zero counter for that lol.
That's exactly what pvp is about. ESO isn't a turn based game. PVP shouldn't be about who has the strongest new set in the game. (Although ZoS keeps trying to make that true) PVP shouldn't be about one guy having no problem with anybody in PVP. It's about decision making. If not why PVP? go fight NPCs if you want to turn of your brain and not think of new ways to PVP.
There is a counter to my suggestion, you can block it, you can purge it. You are the problem. The faster you can understand this the faster you can accept it, change and move on.
Your decision not to change is what is making you die to backlash. Either accept you can't beat backlash and be ok fighting other builds or change.
It's strange you say there is no counter play but say nothing about assassins will. In fact you can't beat an NB. If you have a problem with templar light. There is NO WAY you can beat an NB.
Someday the dream will end. Yours has. Move on. This will be my last reply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AABvUTUTdcw Edited by Redguards_Revenge on 31 August 2021 14:272 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭]
Fossilize and streak are stuns. Those things alone won't kill anybody lol. Also, how exactly are you going to form an objective opinion when you disregard dueling, which is PvP by itself, from the game?
Lol. Undodgeable, unblockable stuns are very powerful. They are a guaranteed stamina drain and allow their users to win the war of attrition. So yes, you won't die to a fossilize's damage, but you will die to damage during a fossilize that you eventually don't have the resources to get out of.
I never said to disregard dueling. They don't balance the game around dueling. In a real pvp environment in which you are playing correctly with los and healing, you will almost certainly not be taking a full purifying light.
People aren't getting obliterated by purifying light in cyro or bgs. Yes, it hits hard in an open space duel where combatants don't los, but that is a certain scenario created by the duelists.
We had a big discussion on our guild's (adastra) discord and in that shoddy mentioned being ok with purifying light being blockable with an aoe explosion component.
I agree that this would be ok (8 to 10m range) given that the explosion on the target is considered single target, as you have also suggested. Blocking purifying lights explosion in this situation would cause it to do 10 percent more damage, as well.
So there, we have come to some element of a compromise. My issue in this thread the whole time has largely been your unrealistic scenarios and your disingenuous arguments. I don't want to get into that again, but I think it is a positive note if we can agree on being ok with making the explosion blockable if there was an aoe explosion added.
I know that you are a good player, and I have read some of your guides before in the past and they have seemed on the mark and well put together.
Please do not write me any responses on things we have already not been able to agree on. If you must reply to this, please just say you are glad we have come to a sort of consensus, and that you are also happy with that.
Best wishes.
PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »]
Fossilize and streak are stuns. Those things alone won't kill anybody lol. Also, how exactly are you going to form an objective opinion when you disregard dueling, which is PvP by itself, from the game?
Lol. Undodgeable, unblockable stuns are very powerful. They are a guaranteed stamina drain and allow their users to win the war of attrition. So yes, you won't die to a fossilize's damage, but you will die to damage during a fossilize that you eventually don't have the resources to get out of.
I never said to disregard dueling. They don't balance the game around dueling. In a real pvp environment in which you are playing correctly with los and healing, you will almost certainly not be taking a full purifying light.
People aren't getting obliterated by purifying light in cyro or bgs. Yes, it hits hard in an open space duel where combatants don't los, but that is a certain scenario created by the duelists.
We had a big discussion on our guild's (adastra) discord and in that shoddy mentioned being ok with purifying light being blockable with an aoe explosion component.
I agree that this would be ok (8 to 10m range) given that the explosion on the target is considered single target, as you have also suggested. Blocking purifying lights explosion in this situation would cause it to do 10 percent more damage, as well.
So there, we have come to some element of a compromise. My issue in this thread the whole time has largely been your unrealistic scenarios and your disingenuous arguments. I don't want to get into that again, but I think it is a positive note if we can agree on being ok with making the explosion blockable if there was an aoe explosion added.
I know that you are a good player, and I have read some of your guides before in the past and they have seemed on the mark and well put together.
Please do not write me any responses on things we have already not been able to agree on. If you must reply to this, please just say you are glad we have come to a sort of consensus, and that you are also happy with that.
Best wishes.
I never said they aren't powerful, but you're comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, I and shoddy came into an agreement with that suggestion. It's the best to address issues for both dueling and BG/OW. I can't think of anything else that would be balanced for both.
My experience of the ability largely came from the first month of PTS testing. I may have been a bit biased in that regard, but I did eventually propose to compromise. I'm glad we have come to a mutual agreement.
Have a great one.1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Your suggestion can work, but the templar shouldn't be able to decide. That's basically playing mind games and there is zero counter for that lol.
That's exactly what pvp is about. ESO isn't a turn based game. PVP shouldn't be about who has the strongest new set in the game. (Although ZoS keeps trying to make that true) PVP shouldn't be about one guy having no problem with anybody in PVP. It's about decision making. If not why PVP? go fight NPCs if you want to turn of your brain and not think of new ways to PVP.
There is a counter to my suggestion, you can block it, you can purge it. You are the problem. The faster you can understand this the faster you can accept it, change and move on.
Your decision not to change is what is making you die to backlash. Either accept you can't beat backlash and be ok fighting other builds or change.
It's strange you say there is no counter play but say nothing about assassins will. In fact you can't beat an NB. If you have a problem with templar light. There is NO WAY you can beat an NB.
Someday the dream will end. Yours has. Move on. This will be my last reply.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AABvUTUTdcw
Okay then I want to decide when I want my blastbones/sub assault to go off. Same with curse. Then we can have a deal.
And no, I beat NBs regularly lol. If you think a NB is hard to beat you're probably not PvPing enough.0 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »]
Fossilize and streak are stuns. Those things alone won't kill anybody lol. Also, how exactly are you going to form an objective opinion when you disregard dueling, which is PvP by itself, from the game?
Lol. Undodgeable, unblockable stuns are very powerful. They are a guaranteed stamina drain and allow their users to win the war of attrition. So yes, you won't die to a fossilize's damage, but you will die to damage during a fossilize that you eventually don't have the resources to get out of.
I never said to disregard dueling. They don't balance the game around dueling. In a real pvp environment in which you are playing correctly with los and healing, you will almost certainly not be taking a full purifying light.
People aren't getting obliterated by purifying light in cyro or bgs. Yes, it hits hard in an open space duel where combatants don't los, but that is a certain scenario created by the duelists.
We had a big discussion on our guild's (adastra) discord and in that shoddy mentioned being ok with purifying light being blockable with an aoe explosion component.
I agree that this would be ok (8 to 10m range) given that the explosion on the target is considered single target, as you have also suggested. Blocking purifying lights explosion in this situation would cause it to do 10 percent more damage, as well.
So there, we have come to some element of a compromise. My issue in this thread the whole time has largely been your unrealistic scenarios and your disingenuous arguments. I don't want to get into that again, but I think it is a positive note if we can agree on being ok with making the explosion blockable if there was an aoe explosion added.
I know that you are a good player, and I have read some of your guides before in the past and they have seemed on the mark and well put together.
Please do not write me any responses on things we have already not been able to agree on. If you must reply to this, please just say you are glad we have come to a sort of consensus, and that you are also happy with that.
Best wishes.
I never said they aren't powerful, but you're comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, I and shoddy came into an agreement with that suggestion. It's the best to address issues for both dueling and BG/OW. I can't think of anything else that would be balanced for both.
My experience of the ability largely came from the first month of PTS testing. I may have been a bit biased in that regard, but I did eventually propose to compromise. I'm glad we have come to a mutual agreement.
Have a great one.
PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0