Lord_Bashu wrote: »

Are there limits in the real world like that?

If the real world was an MMORPG played on physical servers then we would likely have group size limitations. Theoretically, the answer to your question as it could relate to ESO is YES.

Adding here. As for the changes to group size in PvE, I cannot recall a serious MMORPG that has such a small group cap. I wonder what the justification is.

Lord_Bashu wrote: »

It is video game.. of course.. but for a video game.. does it not have a great deal of non logical changes, features.. quirks.. more so than any other major game...

I mean.. how does a Class, like Templar.. for what 5 years.. a feature.. then lose it? From even a design standpoint.. who does that... if u were one of those people.. and that happen to you..

You can go on and on.. In real magical world, U can't wear heavy armor and cast spells.. not effectively.. I mean even gandalf knows that.. right?

So.. the discussion is can u name other items.. in the game.. that just have no basis...

And the central question.. is.. why do groups have to any limits..??? If guild has 500 possible members.. its not a software or hardware issue. So... why don't we demand.. that groups have no limits.. I mean would not improve the social exp.. to make this a better exp.

I mean.. once again.. a guild house can only have 24 ppl... they say.. get this big house for your guild.. ESO words.. not mine and only small percent can go to it..

What about in Cyro.. why did they reduce group size.. it did not improve anything.. what they say.. they liked the behavior?? What did that mean? Did u like the Behavior.. this forum is full of.. no it did nothing to change what happens.. other than NEW ppl have a lot less chance to join a group in cyro.. and Guilds have to make groups where 12 are in the main one.. and 3 or 5 ppl are a smaller little one.. How do those smaller groups feel...???? not good.. I can tell you that.. To me.. well.. I can't say.. cause it might cause this Post to be terminated.. But its not good for anybody.. except for some ZOS folks.. i guess.. and yet they won't tell us why.. does that not seem strange to you all?

Also will this now change to 12 for house's? u can only have 12 ppl in your house in the new patch? with all groups going to 12..

Groups should not have limits.. I know lots of other games.. where they do not.. time to demand!!! We are the ones paying for it.. reminder that!!!

colossalvoids

I'm sorry that Tamriel doesn't meet your logical standards as a "real magical world". This isn't Arda, this magic isn't Gandalf's magic, and on Nirn, trained battlemages wear enchanted armor that let them be effective spellcasters in Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and so on. That's a gripe you have with TES in general, not just ESO.

You also say that Guild size is neither a hardware nor software thing, yet ignore that Guild size is closely tied to Guild Trader access, where 500 players may list a maximum of 15,000 items. We have seen numerous times that Guild Histories has an impact on performance and that loading the items in Guild Traders is impacted by performance. Like it or not, the number of players you have in Guilds does impact the hardware/software side of ESO as evidenced most clearly when ZOS had problems with the Guild History after more players joined Guilds due to the introduction of the Guildfinder.

Housing, I direct you to ZOS' statement: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/512076/february-2020-furnishing-limit-status-update/p1
"The number of guests in a home also impacts performance. At the moment, increasing the population limit would require reducing furnishing limits." It might be illogical from an in-universe position, but that's not what really matters to the hardware/software side of a video game, now is it?


Cyrodiil Group size and the new group size changes for PVE? Well, there ZOS hasn't given any reason aside from design intentions, and like you, I find that insufficient reason to compensate for the loss of gameplay I enjoyed.


I'm somewhat sympathetic to your non-LotR complaints, but in the end, I don't think "it's illogical from an in-universe perspective" is a very helpful way to approach complaints about why the game is designed the way it is.

If you want the Devs to increase guild size, you have to look at how that's going to impact the game, particularly trading guilds, and performance.

If you want the Devs to increase housing group sizes, then you have to grapple with the performance concerns that caused those limitations, as outlined in the linked post. Are you willing to reduce your item slots to have more friends over? Is the Housing Community as a whole willing to do so?

If you want the Devs to remove all limits from groups, then you have to consider that the game was designed for 24-player groups, and that it has to be recorded for larger groups, including an expandable UI, better tracking for group members, and so on...

None of those hardware/software/performance things are a concern in-universe in a "real magical world". They are definitely a concern in a Video Game made by Developers, who are less concerned with representing a real world with 100% faithfulness than they are with making a (mostly) working video game product to sell. When in-universe logic collides with the keeping the game (mostly) functioning according to the Devs' intentions, performance wins.

Look no farther than Companions, a major selling point and only new feature of their brand new Chapter. It makes no logical sense that faithful companion Bastian or Mirri takes off the moment more players show up or we enter a city, but that's exactly what ZOS is testing on the PTS because of performance concerns. Performance really is that much of a priority.

Lord_Bashu wrote: »

ESO is a “Mechanical Machine” which creates a system. System design and testing has been around more than 2000 years. The basic’s of it are fairly straight forward, when your designing for a Performance System, i.e. a System that needs to perform at high level, you need to design it to meet certain metrics and tolerances to maintain the desired performance level. PvP combat in a game is an example of something that needs to meet a desired performance level.

When designing the system you must take into account all the limitations in your design. You must ensure you design to those limitations. If you do not, then the system will be flawed. You use testing procedures to ensure compliance with the desired metrics and tolerances. Then you have a process of sizing and “refining” the system until it meets the desired metrics and tolerances. Or you find you have to change your metrics and tolerances because your unable to design the system to the desired metrics. So after proper testing is concluded certifying that your system is meeting the design criteria, you can then put the system into production.

As the system is updated and change’s are made by design, each new feature must be viewed as to its effect on the total system. You must then retest to ensure compliance to the metrics before implementing the new updated system.

Management of the performance system
If the system mangers deviate from the above process typically by not ensuring proper testing for the desired metrics for any reason, or changing the metrics, then the system could and will likely start to degenerate with each new change.

None of us in this forum, has the required inside knowledge and research to determine why we have a specific issue with ESO. We can’t even determine if the current performance fits the desired metrics. The only thing we can do, is decide if it good enough for us on personal level, if its not acceptable we can try to express that to the system managers or move to another system.

I see a lot of assumptions being made, without the proper internal knowledge.

As an end user:
I want to see unlimited Group sizes (i.e. my org post)
House’s that can hold larger amount’s of folks. i.e. my entire guild
House’s where groups can fight each other
When I hit a key, the skill goes off.
Significantly less change to long standing items, i.e. skills, etc i.e. A stable world! One where significant changes are not made on an almost a quarterly basis.
I do not want to be a tester/system designer unless I am really well paid for it, 150k plus real dollars yearly. btdt

This would be why I keep pointing out examples of when ZOS themselves acknowledged performance problems with what you want.

I mean, as an end user, you can ask for houses that can hold up to 500 people. Go for it! But none of that changes the limitations ZOS talks about in this article: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/512076/february-2020-furnishing-limit-status-update/p1

Sandman929 wrote: »

Well, apparently it is a performance improvement. So now we've see that it both is and isn't.

I learned long ago to take what they say with a grain of salt. I'd rather trust what I see in-game than what I read on a forum. And for me, performance has only gotten worse in Cyrodill since they cut group sizes in half.

Actions speak louder than words.