No Buffs to DKs? Really???

xI_The_Owl_Ix · April 2021

Whole PvE endgame meta is screwed. At least DKs are still welcomed as tanks.

PvE endgame groups are pretty much:

1 DK (Tank)
1 Warden (Off-Tank)
1 Sorc (Healer)
1 Templar (Healer)
8 Magcros (DD)

Something really needs to change tbh.

Davadin · April 2021

I want some buff on my DK wings.

TwinLamps wrote: »

I was hoping for
#stamwhip
Ofc zos didnt deliver

take your flying-fire-poop fist and go.

Davadin · April 2021

ManDraKE wrote: »

until they remove the unavaidoble and unpurgeable 80% snare from leap, this class should be burried into obvilion, is one of the most obnoxious things on the game.

ah yes. take away the snare from leap. i never care for it.

but what do I get in return for taking that away?

Phaedryn · April 2021

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Our tanking is at the bottom of the barrel since our class ability costs are ridiculous and our defensive passives are out-shined by Necro, Templar, and Warden

What game are YOU playing?? Bottom of the barrel? DK tanks? What? lol

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

Davadin wrote: »

ah yes. take away the snare from leap. i never care for it.

but what do I get in return for taking that away?

In return you get that people can outrun leap and it wont deal damage. Sounds great right?

ArcVelarian · April 2021

There is just a laundry list of buffs that need to be considered based on DK performance over the past year and a half.

Lava Whip (and both morphs) need to scale off of highest offensive stats.
Inferno (and both morphs) should really be activating every 1 or 2 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds.
Combustion should be providing Magicka and Stamina resource restoration per DoT tick in addition to flat regen.
Dragon Blood should scale based on max health and not missing health.
Inhale needs a damage buff and a Stamina Morph.
Iron Skin should be doubled if not tripled.
Burning Heart should increase healing received by 20% while a Draconic Power ability is active.
Draconic Power abilities need to have their costs reduced in general.
Scaled Armor should provide 3300 Physical Resistance in addition to 3300 Spell Resistance.
Stone Giant NEEDS to have that stupid cast time removed in addition to a 20% damage buff.
Ash Cloud (and both morphs) should have its radius increased to 8 meters and Cinder Storm should heal for significantly more.
Mountain's Blessing should generate 6 Ultimate every 3 seconds.

Sangwyne · April 2021

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

Mag DK put like 20 debuffs on you (not exactly) and you just die. I mean... Is a buff necessary?

The fact that we have to specifically stack up 20 debuffs on someone just to kill them when every other class just bursts you down should tell you something. And we get bursted just as easily, since we have no purge and crummy heals.

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

Zos specifically hated dks since elsweyr. Here is a fact for you:

We know that already.

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

Warden ultimate got changed and had its damage reduced and no longer does cc, but only snare, because "it was too strong".

DK Ultimate is:
- High Damage
- Gap Closer
- Low Cost
- And CC

Take flight literally one of the best ultimates in the game.

DK's ultimate does roughly 50% more than one hit of Subterranean Assault, a regular ability that costs 2000 stamina and hits twice, and can't be used like Shalks as delayed damage to burst someone down. One cast of a 2k Stamina ability does 33% more damage than "the best ultimate in the game". Take away Take Flight and DK is literally nothing but a pile of useless skills on an NPC. So sure, nerf that too, ZOS has done so for every single last ability we had.

Beffagorn · April 2021

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

It's already a lot there's not been massive nerfs

Considering Malacath is the only thing that made DKs (both stam and mag) slightly above trash tier in pvp and it's getting a heavy nerf slapped to it, i'd say there have been nerfs and big ones at that too. They just nerfed the class indirectly.

And let's not forget the nerf to the CP about status effects, which is yet another indirect nerf to sustain for pve.

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

DK Ultimate is:
- High Damage
- Gap Closer
- Low Cost
- And CC

Take flight literally one of the best ultimates in the game.

Leap is literally the ONLY thing DKs have to win fights in pvp and it's incredibly easy to predict when it'll happen. You could simply learn how the class works and block it, thus removing DK's only strenght in pvp.

Extinct_Solo_Player · April 2021

Beffagorn wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

It's already a lot there's not been massive nerfs

Considering Malacath is the only thing that made DKs (both stam and mag) slightly above trash tier in pvp and it's getting a heavy nerf slapped to it, i'd say there have been nerfs and big ones at that too. They just nerfed the class indirectly.

And let's not forget the nerf to the CP about status effects, which is yet another indirect nerf to sustain for pve.

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

DK Ultimate is:
- High Damage
- Gap Closer
- Low Cost
- And CC

Take flight literally one of the best ultimates in the game.

Leap is literally the ONLY thing DKs have to win fights in pvp and it's incredibly easy to predict when it'll happen. You could simply learn how the class works and block it, thus removing DK's only strenght in pvp.

Yeah it's cool and all how he says it but then doesn't realise that a SKILL such as blastbones deals the same amount of burst with defile on top without being tied to an ultimate cost. Guess these pesky DK ovelords are dominating those balanced stamdens with 7k shalks and necros with 7k+ blastbones with that damn overtuned ultimate LOL.

Rkindaleft · April 2021

Lol to the people that are trying to argue "DK OP, LEAP IS OP" pretending like DK has any other redeeming traits in PvP right now. They are bad in both forms of content. In PvE, both stamina and magicka damage specs are literally at the bottom of the DPS ladder, with having the worst sustain in the game - and getting even worse next patch. At least Mag DK is a staple in some groups due to buff options.

DreadDaedroth · April 2021

Dks got their wing literally clipped in Elsweyr.

ajkb78 · April 2021

Beffagorn wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

It's already a lot there's not been massive nerfs

Considering Malacath is the only thing that made DKs (both stam and mag) slightly above trash tier in pvp and it's getting a heavy nerf slapped to it, i'd say there have been nerfs and big ones at that too. They just nerfed the class indirectly.

And let's not forget the nerf to the CP about status effects, which is yet another indirect nerf to sustain for pve.

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

DK Ultimate is:
- High Damage
- Gap Closer
- Low Cost
- And CC

Take flight literally one of the best ultimates in the game.

Leap is literally the ONLY thing DKs have to win fights in pvp and it's incredibly easy to predict when it'll happen. You could simply learn how the class works and block it, thus removing DK's only strenght in pvp.

This is true. I'm not a good pvper by any means, just happy to run with a zerg sometimes, but even I can see Leap coming and counter it. I have a DK tank but I prefer my warden, and I have magDK dd all levelled up but I prefer literally every other dd I have, boh mag and stam, because the DK feels so pedestrian and excessively difficult to sustain. For a class so heavily dependent on class skills they could really do with a big helping of cost reduction.

Bodycounter · April 2021

Only talking from PvE perspective: I have already mentioned this in another thread but there are several glaring issues with the Dragonknight from a modern design perspective. The Dragonknight is in a really bad spot currently for many reasons. The class in undoubtly the worst healer/supporter in the game. In Terms of damage and sustain (both Stamina and Magicka) they are at the bottom of the bunch, too. Since Magicka is way more popular than Stamina currently the Minor Brutality buff has become negligible. Stagger is the only buff left and this is done by the tank.

This makes the Dragonknight outside of standard main tank completely interchangeable in the whole PvE content! Even the 9-10% fire damage increase from Engulfing Flames can easily be achieved by the tank at this point. The most glaring issues with the Dragonknight are the following from my perspective:

Actives:

Dragonknight Standard: Needs the Soul Trap treatment. Add Minor/Major Courage to the Shackle synergy.
Lava Whip: Needs the Soul Trap treatment.
Inferno: Major Prophecy and Savagery baseline. Needs the Soul Trap treatment. Increase tick rate.
Volatile Armor (morph): Needs the Soul Trap treatment.
Coagulating Blood (morph): Should scale from highest offensive stats and add Minor Endurance/Intellect.
Reflective Scale and Inhale: Both are too costly for what they are doing.
Stone Giant (morph): Just rework this ability it does not and will never work as a spammable.
Molten Weapons: Add something to this ability. Anything.
Ash Cloud: Costs too much for what both morhps are doing.

Passives:

Combustion: Increase the damage of Status effects to 50/100% and increase ressource gain to 400/800.
Searing Heat: Increase the damage of all damage over time effects by 10/20% and their duration by 2/4 seconds.
World in Ruins: Increase your Fire and Poison damage by 3/6%. Decrease the cost of Fire and Poison abilities by 5/10%.
Scaled Armor: Increase your Spell and Physical Resistance by 1200/2400.
Eternal Mountain: Rework the passive and adjust duration of abilities.
Helping Hands: Is only useful to tanks. The Dragonknight generally has many tank-focussed passives, but not a single healer-focussed one?!

Edit: The "Soul Trap treatment" is what ZoS has done to the Soul Trap ability back in the days. It changes its damage type and scaling depending on your maximum ressources. This way it can be used as a stamina and a magicka ability without drawbacks. For the Dragonknight every ability getting the Soul Trap treatment should either do Poison (Stamina) or Fire (Magicka) damage.

I honestly think that the Dragonknight would improve alot when you allow some abilities to scale off their highest ressources and change their damage type accordingly. Then modernize all the outdated passives and the Dragonknight should be in a good spot again.

p4l4mu7 · April 2021

They can literally change stone fist into a stone maul like melee spammable you hit enemy with a stone weapon and then it breaks on contact and it will be 100x better than poop fist.
Dk was an amazing class back in the day and magdk can still pull great dps in trials/dungeons thanks to the cleave damage, but passives are outdated, dk healer and stamdk are terrible, I haven't played my old main stamdk for a year, with all the dot nerfs and a terrible spammable they managed to kill all the fun stamdk offered in pve.
I'm not asking for straight buffs that will increase the dps by ton, just rework on some passives and skill so dk is fun again.

Jodynn · April 2021

I have sustain issues with parse food and false god's, burning and ult resource regen is not enough, AND I'm using charged, AND I'm a khajiit.

Just saying, sustain sucks.

Jodynn · April 2021

I've long wanted molten arms to be useful, my favorite idea is make it a toggle like the stupid vampire skill that no one uses, but make it turn all physical and magical damage to fire damage and scale off of spell damage/magicka and even cost magicka.

This would allow us to utilize our melee prowess, we have whip, great, give us more melee options since there doesn't seem to be a new weapon skill line that fits our gameplay. I'm enjoying the ability to use dual wield now, but what would be better is being able to use 2hander with the execute, that actually scales. Being able to use the skills would be nice.

If you want to tie burning to our sustain, fine, make all our skills burning capable.

EDIT: New comment

Would fix my raging hate with the fact barbed trap sucks on magicka and is really only a buff skill, be too hard to make rune give minor force... so make trap fire damage somehow.

EDIT2: New comment 2

Because right now, being magic/melee feels half baked.

Sangwyne · April 2021

Please just fix DK. It's so fundamentally flawed that everyone here has an entire laundry list of ways to fix it, but instead of any meaningful changes we got a 400 Magicka cost on Coagulating Blood of all things, after all this time. There must be a rework or something coming, because the only other explanation I can see as to why it would be left like this is that they've simply given up on the class. It's the worst DPS in the game, the worst healer in the game, and the only "tank" class without a %Max HP heal now that Templar received some love. Literally anything would be appreciated.

ResidentContrarian · April 2021

Rather than a buff to damage on DK, I would rather see these three things:

Global cost reduction of magicka skills, because they simply cost too much and can't be sustained when using a race other than Breton, unless you take a damage reduction no one else has to. That only serves to prove the cost of skills are a problem
Fix targeting bugs with skills, collision bugs, and fix mysterious delays that apparently are the result of checks no other skills in the game have. Even coagulated blood, a self-heal has a larger delay than Honor the Dead, Healing Ward, Breath of Life, etc. Noxious Breath and it's sister morph both suffer from this targeting and delay problem worst, cutting DPS in PvE and getting you killed in PvP ...
For PvP balance, adjust the CP stars that directly harm DK and other DoT-based builds by effectively giving other specs a free pass through 50 or less CP points, with some of these stars not even requiring to be slotted
For PvE balance, melee skills for mag DK need better risk-reward. One place it can happen is very simple: utlimates.
- ]Magma shell gives it's DoT effect on all players it covers instead of just the casting DK - increases risk-reward and rewards players that stay close to boss instead of buffing ranged ones.
- DK standard increases damage by additional 3-5% when in melee range and/or increases damage to a ranged enemy by additional 3% when not in melee range, but standing in the standard. This would make the ult less useless, considering combat is becoming more movement-based.

Doubt it will happen.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

I'm going to copy my comments from another thread here if that's not too obnoxious. I play Stam but many of these ideas pertain equally to Mag or Stam DK:

Throughout Greymoor and Markarth, on the Melee Stam side of PvP, since the half-Tank/half-DD was meta, we were well above Templar or NB, reasonably tied with Sorc, and just slightly behind Warden and Necro - if we take into account the full spectrum of solo / small-group / large-group.

The absence of procs brought a spotlight to DK's issues, which we all expected.

It also narrowed the meta more than any other change in ESO history, in my opinion, and it's obvious to most DKs the one and only way we could fit into this meta as a DD in optimized groups - not that it will endure - is to have Inhale brought up to line with other similar abilities.

This wasn't the case with full access to procs - DKs had niche roles as DDs in optimized 12 man groups.

Ok, we don't get to be DDs in No Proc optimized 12 man.

But, are we the superlative "Pressure Tank"? Is that even still a relevant role? Should it be?

If we had to pick one area, one role, one playstyle, to receive buffs for DKs in PvP, what do we want:

1. buffs to the Pressure Tank role - buffs to defensive passives, buffs to DoT damage, cost-reductions of Class CC skills, etc.

2. a big buff to Inhale to allow DK to function as a competent No Proc DD in optimized groups

I could go either way quite happily.

Sangwyne · April 2021

Hopefully tomorrow's PTS update will bring some much-needed changes to DK. What the class really needs is a complete rework or some major buffs to put it on par with the others, let alone the DLC classes, but I'm not expecting ZOS to treat it like their precious baby; I'm just asking for them to not conveniently forget about it for another entire cycle. After all this time, and all the complaints regarding DK, there's no way they don't have the data to show that it's struggling.

Still probably going to be left disappointed. Inb4 "I expect nothing and I'm still let down".

ke.sardenb14_ESO · April 2021

At this late in the game I don't want much:
1. Some universal damage buff every other class has, whether it be crit damage, crit chance, %damage increase, %damage done.
2. Less cumbersome spammables that is actually impacted by the damage passives of the class. Whether it is a stamina costing whip, or tuning of stone giant so that it is less cumbersome.
EDIT
3. GREEN DRAGONS BLOOD SHOULD GIVE A FLAT STAT RETURN OR ULT GEN. Tanks literally have no resources return other then ult use and helping hands.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

Stone Giant should primarily be an offensive group buff that should be recast every 6 seconds, in my opinion.

ke.sardenb14_ESO · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Stone Giant should primarily be an offensive group buff that should be recast every 6 seconds, in my opinion.

I honestly be okay with the ability just being the stomp with no rocks and not channel. I would at least always have cleave damage and aoe debuffs

the1andonlyskwex · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Stone Giant should primarily be an offensive group buff that should be recast every 6 seconds, in my opinion.

Because obviously nobody will complain if DK's burst heal and offensive group buff are alternate morphs of the same skill. /s

Urzigurumash · April 2021

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Stone Giant should primarily be an offensive group buff that should be recast every 6 seconds, in my opinion.

Because obviously nobody will complain if DK's burst heal and offensive group buff are alternate morphs of the same skill. /s

Except it's not a burst heal, it's a skill you have to cast before a burst heal, hogging up a slot, a GCD, and mag.

Buff the defensive passives for DK, StamDK can drop Frag for a revised 6 sec Stone Giant.

Leave Frag an option for PvP DK DDs, but adjust it to provide something DK Healers seem to want and need.

That's my take anyhow

Urzigurumash · April 2021

As I just said in another thread regarding the fact that damage procs provide a delayed burst effect:

So, at least on the damage side of the equation, that's an easy explanation as to why we see such a difference in offensive potential, generally, between classes with delayed burst and without in No Proc Cyrodiil, no? Of course, classes with it can use them also.

But, they can't if they need some other set to give some bonus that a class without access to Delayed Burst already has.

This all fits in with my theory that if DKs were buffed to be better tanks in PvP, things would fall into place regarding them in other roles, rather than just converting them to be more like natural DD classes. Maybe I'm wrong.

the1andonlyskwex · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Stone Giant should primarily be an offensive group buff that should be recast every 6 seconds, in my opinion.

Because obviously nobody will complain if DK's burst heal and offensive group buff are alternate morphs of the same skill. /s

Except it's not a burst heal, it's a skill you have to cast before a burst heal, hogging up a slot, a GCD, and mag.

Buff the defensive passives for DK, StamDK can drop Frag for a revised 6 sec Stone Giant.

Leave Frag an option for PvP DK DDs, but adjust it to provide something DK Healers seem to want and need.

That's my take anyhow

I'm pretty sure you're getting Obsidian Shard (burst heal, morph of Stonefist) confused with Obsidian Shield (base skill of Igneous Shield and Fragmented Shield, provides Major Mending).

Urzigurumash · April 2021

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Stone Giant should primarily be an offensive group buff that should be recast every 6 seconds, in my opinion.

Because obviously nobody will complain if DK's burst heal and offensive group buff are alternate morphs of the same skill. /s

Except it's not a burst heal, it's a skill you have to cast before a burst heal, hogging up a slot, a GCD, and mag.

Buff the defensive passives for DK, StamDK can drop Frag for a revised 6 sec Stone Giant.

Leave Frag an option for PvP DK DDs, but adjust it to provide something DK Healers seem to want and need.

That's my take anyhow

I'm pretty sure you're getting Obsidian Shard (burst heal, morph of Stonefist) confused with Obsidian Shield (base skill of Igneous Shield and Fragmented Shield, provides Major Mending).

Ah my bad, I see what you mean. I see people call Frag a "burst heal" quite a bit.

Stone Giant already is a unique group damage buff, so that decision between a group damage buff or heal on that skill is already there, it just has to be recast like every 1 second to maximize. Change it to every 6 seconds. Give your average StamDK the same selfish HPS they get from the Major Mending on Vigor from some passive - like Elder Dragon.

If Green Dragon Blood were improved a bit for PvP, more StamDK would take that - which has Minor Vitality, which is often overlooked when compared to Frag, in my opinion.

If you're thinking why should MagDKs have to slot a Weapon Damage scaled skill to provide a unique group buff, well, StamDK has been doing the opposite always. When I say change it to a 6 second unique group buff I don't mean it needs to retain any part of its current purpose as a stam spammable. It could, or could not. I'm still slotting Weapon Skills for damage, probably.

ke.sardenb14_ESO · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

As I just said in another thread regarding the fact that damage procs provide a delayed burst effect:

So, at least on the damage side of the equation, that's an easy explanation as to why we see such a difference in offensive potential, generally, between classes with delayed burst and without in No Proc Cyrodiil, no? Of course, classes with it can use them also.

But, they can't if they need some other set to give some bonus that a class without access to Delayed Burst already has.

This all fits in with my theory that if DKs were buffed to be better tanks in PvP, things would fall into place regarding them in other roles, rather than just converting them to be more like natural DD classes. Maybe I'm wrong.

The issue at hand is that they are poor damage dealers. And while those changes may at least increase survival in PvP and tanking in PvE, they will do little to address poor performance in PvE dps and healing. Nothing short of damage increases and healing changes will bring DK up to standard.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

As I just said in another thread regarding the fact that damage procs provide a delayed burst effect:

So, at least on the damage side of the equation, that's an easy explanation as to why we see such a difference in offensive potential, generally, between classes with delayed burst and without in No Proc Cyrodiil, no? Of course, classes with it can use them also.

But, they can't if they need some other set to give some bonus that a class without access to Delayed Burst already has.

This all fits in with my theory that if DKs were buffed to be better tanks in PvP, things would fall into place regarding them in other roles, rather than just converting them to be more like natural DD classes. Maybe I'm wrong.

The issue at hand is that they are poor damage dealers. And while those changes may at least increase survival in PvP and tanking in PvE, they will do little to address poor performance in PvE dps and healing. Nothing short of damage increases and healing changes will bring DK up to standard.

Right, so I'll quote myself from another thread about that. See what you think. I said something about Chains, Talons, and Standard being the traditional reason DKs are taken in optimized groups in PvP:

It's less about whether or not DKs being good at the tank role in PvP is important for PvP's sake- and more so that, if they were, it would push things in the direction such that things would fall into place regarding other roles. I.e., they could forgo some max health food in favor of a sustain food with an equal amount of survivability as another class with the max health food, etc.

Whether or not Chains, Talons or Standard fit into "the" meta group, for the most part without procs, if DKs do fit into an optimized group, it's for those things. Whether or not Chains, Talons, or Standard have been great skills in any particular era in PvP, the fact that these have been the main reason to run DK in optimized PvP groups for the last 6 years goes along perfectly with the fact the class is, at its core, a tank class.

Buff the tank aspects of the class, and it allows players to allocate more of their expendable budget towards the roles it's always had a problem with - DD and Healer.