No Buffs to DKs? Really???

Urzigurumash

You know, if we already saw that the universal meta for DDs in Cyrodiil was running 7x Divines, No Heavy, No Max Health food, etc., i.e., building for absolute maximum damage, there's no way that buffing the tank side of DK would let it be a better damage dealer.

But they're not, they're chugging tri-pots like tanks. Right?

If we're talking about how we get them to be rated top-tier DD for Trials, yeah I have no idea about that subject. I'm more or less using traditional PvE roles as the control for where a class should receive buffs if it's regarded as underperforming in general.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

@Urzigurumash
So you comment seems to be solely focused on PvP performance, and in that regard it make sense. What I'm saying is that Tankyness will have zero impact on the DPS and healer in PvE.
Let's look at DPS for example. Currently in live PvE:
1. all of your points go into your main damage resources already
2. Most will run sustain food, getting max resources and recovery
3. All possible DPS nodes will be slotted and priotized
4. Maybe one heal or shield will be slotted, while the rest of your bar will be dots.
So what resources can Dk still pull from it all of the above are turn and the class under performs in optimize group?

ke.sardenb14_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You know, if we already saw that the universal meta for DDs in Cyrodiil was running 7x Divines, No Heavy, No Max Health food, etc., i.e., building for absolute maximum damage, there's no way that buffing the tank side of DK would let it be a better damage dealer.

But they're not, they're chugging tri-pots like tanks. Right?

If we're talking about how we get them to be rated top-tier DD for Trials, yeah I have no idea about that subject. I'm more or less using traditional PvE roles as the control for where a class should receive buffs if it's regarded as underperforming in general.

As it stands the only damage passives the DK recieve increases class dots by 33%, fire aoes by 6%, and the burning or poison status effect. Would broadening these, or adding a single universal passive be far more impact impactful.

Urzigurumash

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You know, if we already saw that the universal meta for DDs in Cyrodiil was running 7x Divines, No Heavy, No Max Health food, etc., i.e., building for absolute maximum damage, there's no way that buffing the tank side of DK would let it be a better damage dealer.

But they're not, they're chugging tri-pots like tanks. Right?

If we're talking about how we get them to be rated top-tier DD for Trials, yeah I have no idea about that subject. I'm more or less using traditional PvE roles as the control for where a class should receive buffs if it's regarded as underperforming in general.

As it stands the only damage passives the DK recieve increases class dots by 33%, fire aoes by 6%, and the burning or poison status effect. Would broadening these, or adding a single universal passive be far more impact impactful.

Yeah, I don't know much about PvE. If we're talking about optimizing for Trials DD and Healer and getting as much possible efficiency out of the kit as possible, I know nothing at all. But, if we're not clear frontrunners for Trials Tank on account of our innate tankiness at least as much as our ability to convey group buffs, and there's allocation made towards survivability on almost every DK PvP spec - then it seems improvements to DKs tankiness should be the primary focus for buffs to the class.

Of course we want our class to perform well in every role - but if a class is falling behind in its core role, perhaps those areas should be addressed first. In PvP many of the other base-game classes are fulfilling their core role in a better way than DK.

On the damage side for PvP the idea I've liked the most is some sort of Super Poisoned or Super Burning status, where stacking DoTs or something provides a stronger bonus to Poisoned/Fire damage rather than just the 50% increase to damage on Poisoned and Burning ticks. For PvP, it's obvious the single best improvement we could have for damage is a large increase to the second hit of Inhale, probably with a removal of the targeting requirement. Players have been suggesting this for a long time I think. Of course I've always wanted Weapon Stat scaling on Inhale, always was the number one thing I wanted back in the day. Either of those would help DK as a PvE DD obviously, but I don't know much about it.

Volktair

I play stamdk dps for 6 years, exclusively and when i compare with other classes... Yeah we are *** dps ahah (except during the so short dots meta, good old +100k dummy ).

No sustain, bad self heal, crit etc. But we have poop rock, which is long to launch, respond badly and suck out your stam.

Thanks to not change it, i like to be out of roasters and get my ass wrecked by everyone for years in pve.

Volckodav

+1 to this, I can give you my feedback from PVP:
magDK is my ex-main, got a stamDK too, loved them but it's so weack...moved to necro a couple of months ago and this is night and day!!!

Now I put really less effort in every fight and got way more better result than with my DK. it's a shame because I don't like really the class but no choice

Sangwyne

So as I understand it, if there are zero changes to DK this next PTS patch cycle, week 3, then there won't be any for the remainder of the PTS cycle, correct? ZOS couldn't possibly be so heartless or unaware of its current issues as to allow DK to exist in this miserable state for several more months.

...Right?

tomofhyrule

You know, I never really spent much time thinking about individual nerfs/buffs since I don't really do PvP at all and, while I've done PvE stuff, I'm not a full expert. I mostly just play one character as my main and don't much think about it.

But hearing about the incredible buffs some people could manage with the proc scaling, e.g. the ability to get 70k+ health with specific builds, really made me look at what I as a DK can do versus other classes.

Big one I saw was the wings:
DK Protective scale: Cost 3780 at rank IV, reduces projectile damage by 50%, has a morph that reflects projectiles back for 1799 damage.
Warden Crystallized Shield: Cost 3780 at rank IV, completely negates three projectiles and restores mag for each, has a morph that reflects projectiles back for 1799 damage.

...so, Warden has almost the same skill, but way better? I know I'm allergic to vCR because of her Nocturnal's Favor, and I hear Wardens can just no-sell that attack.

...I dunno, seems a bit unbalanced to me...

Sangwyne

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You know, I never really spent much time thinking about individual nerfs/buffs since I don't really do PvP at all and, while I've done PvE stuff, I'm not a full expert. I mostly just play one character as my main and don't much think about it.

But hearing about the incredible buffs some people could manage with the proc scaling, e.g. the ability to get 70k+ health with specific builds, really made me look at what I as a DK can do versus other classes.

Big one I saw was the wings:
DK Protective scale: Cost 3780 at rank IV, reduces projectile damage by 50%, has a morph that reflects projectiles back for 1799 damage.
Warden Crystallized Shield: Cost 3780 at rank IV, completely negates three projectiles and restores mag for each, has a morph that reflects projectiles back for 1799 damage.

...so, Warden has almost the same skill, but way better? I know I'm allergic to vCR because of her Nocturnal's Favor, and I hear Wardens can just no-sell that attack.

...I dunno, seems a bit unbalanced to me...

That used to be one of our most iconic skills. So they nerfed it, and gave a DLC class a much better version. Same with the nerf to Iceheart right before Mother Ciannait came out. Except that eventually got reverted, but DK was still left in the dust. DK needs to be addressed. It's struggling. It's obvious to everyone.

the1andonlyskwex

Sangwyne wrote: »

So as I understand it, if there are zero changes to DK this next PTS patch cycle, week 3, then there won't be any for the remainder of the PTS cycle, correct? ZOS couldn't possibly be so heartless or unaware of its current issues as to allow DK to exist in this miserable state for several more months.

...Right?

I'm pretty sure the fact that there were zero changes in 7.0.0 already means there won't be any changes in Blackwood. PTS patches usually only tweak changes that were already in the x.y.0 PTS release; they don't generally add new additional changes.

Sleep724

Yea I have no hope DK will see any changes. DK players have been asking for reasonable buffs for what, three years now? Not even an acknowledgement about the state of the class and why they couldn’t even make small incremental changes over that time period

ke.sardenb14_ESO

@Urzigurumash
As it stands the DK only has 3 passives dedicated to actual damage done, and only 2 if you consider stamdk, and one of those buffs is actually a buff to a status effect. Compare that to the remaining 2/3 of passive that are dedicated to tanking and survival.
There is an argument to be had that the tank passives can be updated for current meta. But until the DK get more damage passives, and said passives universally impact damage done. The class will never improve, in either PvP or PvE.

oscarovegren

Im a main DK and I see a lot of complains over things which isnt always true. The class is strong on some things

1. DK is top tier for tanking in PvE
2. Best melee stun in the game (fossilize) for PvP
3. Strong ultimates in dragon leap morphs

Issues is mainly
1. Combustion is underwhelming sustainwise, specially for stamDK which cant proc it as often as MagDK.
2. No damage done, crit chance, crit damage or penetration passives (6% flame AoE is underwhelming).
3. Mobility in PvP. DK cant get out of a bad situations as other classes.
4. Awful spammables. Spam DoTs to get a decent whip or use a skill which is a hybrid between AoE, single target, range and melee while doing average damage
5. No good delayed burst ability. Rework inhale morphs to higher damage and 1 morphs as physical/poison morph

Urzigurumash

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

@Urzigurumash
As it stands the DK only has 3 passives dedicated to actual damage done, and only 2 if you consider stamdk, and one of those buffs is actually a buff to a status effect. Compare that to the remaining 2/3 of passive that are dedicated to tanking and survival.
There is an argument to be had that the tank passives can be updated for current meta. But until the DK get more damage passives, and said passives universally impact damage done. The class will never improve, in either PvP or PvE.

Right, for PvP StamDK, the Ardent Flames passives by far need the most help to be relevant, but they need more than just an increase on their numbers. Some of the Draconic Power and Earthen Heart passives could possibly become much more competitive just through an increase on their numbers.

techyeshic

Huh. For pvp the only thing I really don't like about mDK is the sustain. Ability costs are high, and the resource generating ability requires me to use my ultimate, which is not always needed whenever up.

ResidentContrarian

I still love my light armor mag DK, but next patch it will be completely overshadowed by probably every enemy I encounter. In no proc it's already equivalent to fighting a river current, but after PTS if those changes go through to live...

ZOS' overall nerfs to crit and sustain actually keep hurting this class more than any other, yet there have been zero changes to address this issue.

It's a running meme at this point that every patch is somehow a DK nerf.

Volktair wrote: »

No sustain, bad self heal, crit etc. But we have poop rock, which is long to launch, respond badly and suck out your stam.

Oi, I might be a Contrarian, but I think that the rock skill could be okay with a few tweaks: [1] increase total duration of stack with every stack OR make it 8 seconds, [2] lower cost. Now for [3] some might not agree, but I would rather they remove cast time and take stun away.

No one slotting that skill cares about the stun as far as I know, and it's useless in PvP because you will be stunned before you ever stack 3 stacks.

ArcVelarian

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Oi, I might be a Contrarian, but I think that the rock skill could be okay with a few tweaks: [1] increase total duration of stack with every stack OR make it 8 seconds, [2] lower cost. Now for [3] some might not agree, but I would rather they remove cast time and take stun away.

No one slotting that skill cares about the stun as far as I know, and it's useless in PvP because you will be stunned before you ever stack 3 stacks.

I'm firmly of the opinion that it needs at least a 20% damage buff to make it preferable, even with its clunkyness, over Weapon Skill Abilities. As far as the stun goes, that should be triggered by the initial stomp.

But anyway, both StamDK and MagDK need major buffs and not just relatively small tweaks to one or two abilities.

Sandman929

We need to stop asking for DK things, it only makes matters worse. So many wanted a stamwhip...what we eventually got was the fist...